At the risk of starting a war,

[TeleMark]

I want to state up front that I ask this question with all good intentions, and have no agenda or axe to grind...

Having said that, why is it that a good mando can easily cost WELL over $10,000? Acoustic guitars, while available at that price range, seem to me more in the mid 4-figure range for professional level instruments. A playable, serviceable guitar can typically be had for mid 3-figures.

It's obviously not the materials that are the main determining factor. There is less wood in a mando than a guitar.

Is there THAT much more craftsmanship that goes into a mando? Is is mainly an "economy of scale" issue, since there are probably 10 guitars sold for every mando (likely more, but you get my point)? Is it just because we've been conditioned to expect to pay this much?

Again, I do NOT mean to disparage any of the builders here on the board, I'm honestly curious what makes these things so doggone pricy.

Please don't hurt me.

Thanks,

TeleMark

[Jim Garber]

Bear in mind first: that there are some flattop guitars and many archtop guitars from the finest makers that are indeed more than $10,000. And when you look at finely crafted violin family instruments, you will see even higher prices.

Jim

[Flowerpot]

Well, first off I'd say that the $10k and over mandolins are not in the "good" category, but excellent, top-tier and/or collectable. There are good to great instruments for half that price. But that's just semantics.

Anything with a carved top and back will be very labor intensive, and anything with a good looking scroll takes many more hours. If you want to get expensive, try pricing some top flight archtop guitars, ones with a cutaway. Very pricey.

One luthier who makes both flat top guitars and F-style mandolins told me that in comparison, building the guitars was like framing with 2x4's, and the mandolin was like sculpture. I think he exaggerated, but you get the point.

[TeleMark]

Bear in mind first: that there are some flattop guitars and many archtop guitars from the finest makers that are indeed more than $10,000. And when you look at finely crafted violin family instruments, you will see even higher prices.

Jim
Understood, and agreed. It still seems like guitars, on average, are priced lower for a comparable quality level. It's possible to pay 5 figures for a flattop, but these seem to be outliers. I had neglected the high-end archtop market, which I know can produce instruments well into the mid 5-figures.

I do have the same question about the price of violins and the like. Again, I don't have any experience with the craftsmanship that goes into any of these instruments, so that's a huge gap on my end.

I have to assume that there is a basic economic factor at work... There are dozens of guitar makers in the mid-high end market, and a much smaller segment in mandolin makers.

For example... Santa Cruz seems to be a professional-level maker, and their instruments are around $3500. The Tony Rice Signature is usually listed around this price. A Sam Bush model Gibson costs upwards of $11,000. Why?

Cheers,

TeleMark

[Rick Schmidlin]

Is there THAT much more craftsmanship that goes into a mando? #
YES

Rick

[mandopete]

Just for grins - here's a list of high-end mandolin prices (+/- $10,000) that I have been tracking here in the classifieds for the past several months.

Builder Description (Short) Price Date

Monteleone Grand Artist (1996) $25,000.00 7/20/2004
Gibson Master Model (2003) $11,500.00 7/20/2004
Gilchrist Gilchrist model 3 # 93252 $23,500.00 7/20/2004
Monteleone Grand Artist (S/N 59) $24,000.00 7/21/2004
Gilchrist Gilchrist 96346 $23,500.00 7/26/2004
Gibson Master Model (2003) $9,750.00 8/5/2004
d'Angelico 1957 Double Cutaway $21,000.00 8/6/2004
Lewis 2002 M159JR (John Reischman model) $9,000.00 8/7/2004
Gilchrist 1989 F-5 S/N 0188 $23,500.00 8/7/2004
Gilchrist Model A S/N 94293 $16,000.00 8/7/2004
Nugget 1997 F-5 $25,000.00 8/14/2004
Gibson 1992 F-5L S/N 2485109 (blonde) $10,500.00 8/18/2004
Gibson Master Model (2002) $8,900.00 8/20/2004
Dudenbostel A-Model (2002) $17,000.00 8/22/2004
Gibson Master Model (2002 w/one piece back) $9,800.00 8/26/2004
Monteleone Grand Artist (S/N 103) $25,000.00 8/29/2004
Heiden F-5 Artist S/N F34 (1999) $15,000.00 9/5/2004
Gilchrist Model A S/N 03554 $16,000.00 9/6/2004
Monteleone Grand Artist (1990) $24,500.00 9/6/2004
Gibson Master Model (2003) $10,500.00 9/10/2004
Apitius F-5 Grand Classic $9,000.00 9/12/2004
Kimble F-5 (7/4/2004) $8,500.00 9/13/2004
Gilchrist F Model S/N 01499 $23,500.00 9/14/2004
Nugget F-5 S/N 246 $23,000.00 9/24/2004

[Chris Baird]

It comes down to time and/or tooling cost. It just takes longer to make a mandolin and/or the tooling is more sophisticated and expensive.

[Chris "Bucket" Thomas]

The simple answer: (think logically not emotionally) -it is what the market will bear.

Logically: why does a Rolex/Tag Huer / Brietling cost 2K+. Does it tell time better? No. It is better construction, better looking with some additional features-OK. Cars/SUVs with and without rebates are another great example of market economics. Look at the huge mark up on SUVs. Why, because we will and do want them.

Capitalism at it's best! It is how our system is supposed to work..

Look at Gibson’s new marketing & price strategy. If revenues increase than the marketing department is recognized for having a genius within the ranks. If sales decline than the will readjust their strategy to meet what the market/consumer will support. (Looking into the crystal ball-how can internet sales not be in the future? Get on board with technology or be bypassed)

I wonder: what was the cost of a Gibson mando in'23 and what is that number adjusted for inflation?

OBTW-would I spend 7K +for a Collings/Gibson/insert other brand “here”. YES!

[Jim M.]

Compare flat-top mandos to flat-top guitars and you won't see the price dfference. MId-Mo, Weber, and a bunch of British makers have great flat-top mandos in the $500 to $800 range. Look at Mass Street Music - they have a Bill Davis flat-top (that Scott says is a killer) for $895. Bill's archtop mandos go for $5000.

As to violins, it's hard to get a hand-crafted violin for under $5,000. And if you look at the Monteleone/Nugget/Dudes of contemporary violin builders, you're easily looking at $50,000 or more. I'm a violin player who is happy to have MAS rather than VAS.

[Dru Lee Parsec]

Telemark:

First of all, I'm in Santee and we need to get together and jam. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Now, for your question. #As a wanna-be builder of mandolins and guitars and a current builder of mountain dulcimers (see my web site at the bottom of this post) I always wonder the opposite: Why are guitars so cheap?

The more I learn as a hand builder the more I realize that the amount of knowledge, skill, craft, and art it takes to become a good luthier is roughly the same as what it took for me to become a senior software engineer. #And in fact, as a luthier my skills are used far more consistently than they are as a software engineer. #So in my mind, a good luthier deserves to make as much money as an engineer. #Both are jobs that require a huge amount of study and practice to become really good.

So lets say that the luthier deserves to make $70k a year. ( That's actually low for a software engineer here in Southern Calif. where an average mortgage is $2000 a month or more. ) $70k a year after taxes is about $46,000. #Subtract that $2000 a year mortgage and you only have $22k and you havn't started to pay any of the other bills. #So even $70 is a tough living in certain parts of the country (like here in San Diego). That doesn't even touch on the cost of health insurance, utilities, food, clothing, car payments, car insurance, and kids (Oh my gosh, add kids into the equation and your expenses go out teh window)

In any case let's now look at how many instruments a luthier can make in a year. #Bob Bennedetto was nuts! #That guy could produce 30 guitars a year! #12 to 18 is much closer to average for guitars and it's probably high for mandolins since they have all that carving and binding to do. But even if we assume that the luthier can make 20 instruments a year and he needs $70 to survive that means he has to profit $3500 per instrument. #That's PROFIT $3500. #And believe me, it's one heck of a job to produce 20 instruments a year. #So assuming a materials cost of $500/instrument that means the luthier has to charge $4000 per instrument AND build 20 of them a year just to avoid bankruptcy. A more reasonable output would be 12 to 15 a year. At 12 instruments a year with a $500 materials cost and a $70k /year income requirement that would be roughly $6500 per instrument.

But now you get into the realm of "collectables". #Before Bob Benedetto retired his base price guitar was $17,500 and he was building 30 a year and still had a 3 year waiting list. #The thing is, because there are so few Benedettos on the market and because they're so sought after the price of the instrument goes up IMMEDIATLY once it's delivered. #I played one Benedetto in my life and it certainly was the best guitar I've ever played. #The owner wanted $22,500 for it. #I could honestly see why an instrument like that is worth that. #It played really really well, it sounded amazing, and it was extremely rare.

So it's a combination of the luthier making a living (barely) and of supply and demand. #Anything that is sought after but is in short supply will have a high price tag. This is true whether the reason for the scarcity is that the builder can only build so many a year (as with mandolins) or if the scarcity is totally artificial (such as with diamonds).

The Sam Bush instruments and all the Gibson Master Models are pretty much all hand made. So the guys building mandoins at Gibson have exactly the same economic stresses that any solo luthier has to deal with. Hence, the high price of a Sam Bush mandolin.

I hope that helps to anser your question, and no, we don't want to hurt you. ;-)

[Scott Tichenor]

There are 365 builders (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/builders/searchdb.cgi?uid=default&view_records=1&keyword=States) I've been able to document just in the U.S. building mandolins. That number increases almost daily. Trust me--most of those don't offer a $10K+ mandolin for sale. You can buy a ton of great mandolins for well under that price.

There's currently an overabundance of moaning and groaning about a few key builders charging more than that on the board right now. So much that it drowns out the good news. It makes me ill to read it. Throw in the rest of the 819 builders and growing by the day and you still have that same relatively small handful of builders charging that price. Are those all the best mandolins? Not in my opinion. Are there some great ones in there? Yep, but many are well under that price range.

If you think you need those kind of bills to buy a decent instrument call me collect and I'll argue until I'm blue in the face about it.

[Chris "Bucket" Thomas]

"Amen" to the above post by Scott.

Can I say amen here? Is it pc?

[peter.coombe]

"Amen" again. If you want the best and some considerable prestige thrown in as well, then you pay top dollar because of the supply and demand equation. I ordered a Gilchrist 6 years ago, and it is a fine instrument, but now worth so much I am afraid to take it out of the case. Being one of only 2 of that model makes it even more valuable, but that is not why I ordered it. When I ordered it I could afford it, now there is no way I could buy it on the used market. However, it does not sound any better than the mandolins I am making now, just different.

On average I make around $10 an hour making mandolins. Without the day job we would starve. If I was getting $10,000 an instrument I could do it full time, no problem. Is anyone willing to pay $10,000? In my dreams maybe! Yet if you want a Gibson style of oval hole that sounds and plays better than any other, I can make it. If better oval hole mandos exist, I have never seen one. Some really nice things have also been said about my F hole A's on this BB for which I am most grateful. You can get one for less than $3000 US dollars, and get it within 2 years. You do not need $10,000.

This is just one example.

[doanepoole]

I think when you get in the 10K+ range, it is a prestige thing.

Despair not.

There is a guy in my neighborhood building mandolins that sound every bit as good as a Gilchrist or Gibson.

PM me and I will put you in touch with him. I'm sure 50% of other cafe members know a talented luthier in there neighborhood, too.

A bit of unsolicited advice....don't fall into the "a mandolin is an investment" resale value trap, spend time hunting down an instrument you KNOW you'll be happy with at a fair price, and you will never despair of the prices of high-prestige mandolins.

[John Craton]

Why are mandolins so expensive?? Gee, as a violinist my reaction is: "Wow, they're cheap compared to violins!"

[mandoJeremy]

Well, I can only recommend Keith Murchison who used to work for Gibson and now sales his F-5 for around $2500.00. I love his mandos and his price much more!

[Rick Schmidlin]

My Prucha was 5 but I would not trade it for a name brand 10.

Rick

[GVD]

doanepoole Posted on Sep. 24 2004, 20:06
There is a guy in my neighborhood building mandolins that sound every bit as good as a Gilchrist or Gibson.

PM me and I will put you in touch with him. #I'm sure 50% of other cafe members know a talented luthier in there neighborhood, too.

A bit of unsolicited advice....don't fall into the "a mandolin is an investment" resale value trap, spend time hunting down an instrument you KNOW you'll be happy with at a fair price, and you will never despair of the prices of high-prestige mandolins.

The sagest advice I've heard on this board in a long time Kevin. There are more and more builders every day all over the world who are building outstanding sounding mandolins at very reasonable prices. Are they all investment instruments? Who knows? But who cares as long as the person who bought it is happy with it. If you're worried about investing, buy stocks. If you want to spend a few bucks on something that will put a smile on your face seek out a local builder.

GVD

[Big Joe]

To get back to the initial issue, a mandolin and especially an F5 is far more expensive to make than a flat top guitar. It is not just the size of the wood, but work needed to work the wood. A guitar top is sanded to a particular thickness and while still flat glued to sides bent in a pretty large arc. A mandolin has both carved tops and backs that must start MUCH thicker than a guitar top. The woods used in guitar production often do not have to be as high a grade as is expected on a mandolin and the actual assembly is quite a bit easier. Binding a guitar is much easier than binding a mandoin...especially in the scroll area of the body or headstock. Finishing a guitar is easier as is buffing and finishing a guitar.

Then in our facility, we are required to begin using certified smart wood. That increases the cost of the wood by about 25%. It does nothing for the sound of the mandolin, but it is certified. The finish used on a mandolin is going to make a radical difference in the final cost also. Lacquer is pretty easy to apply and dries quickly allowing a fast turn around time. Varnish takes the time it takes and is very quirky about temperature and humidity. There is no easy way to determine how much time the varnish finish will take because there are too many variables. These combined result in the mandolin costing much more than many guitars. Then one must add the rent, labor, benefits, insurances, utilities, machinery upkeep, tools, wood purchasing, fingerboards, frets, inlays, etc, etc, etc. These add up quite fast. We then sell it to a dealer for a certain price and he must make a profit so it gets marked up and then you get the opportunity to purchase it.

I should say clearly that some of the products we make are clearly out of the price range of the average purchaser. Then again, we only build a couple of those a month so we cannot meet the requirements of the product. We also build models in the moderate price range. It gets harder to buy a real American made guitar for much less than a couple grand. The same for mandolins. I just ordered a guitar for our store that will sell for about 25K. That is about the same as the distressed MM (of which there are only about 5 in existence).

Many would like to have the opportunity to own a Master Model or a Gilchrist, but that is not a reality. Only a few will have them because there are only a few to be had. Most of those that own them are not rich or well to do. They are just people like the rest of us who have chosen that over other things in their lives. They don't have golf carts and 4K clubs. They don't have bass boats. They may drive older vehicles. They may have houses that are not as fancy or new as some. They may chose less expensive furniture.

In my case I can afford a Master Model because I have my house paid for (and it is not a fancy one). My kids are raised. My wife and I both work. We have no child support or alimony. We have no real debts. We don't drink or smoke or do a lot of partying. We saved and have been greatly blessed with the things we have...and they are ours, not the banks.

I waited a long time to get my first good instrument and was able to upgrade by selling and trading until I got what I liked. While it may seem impossible for some to think they will ever own a high end mandolin, it really is a matter of choices and decisions one makes over a period of time. They are accessible for those who really really want them, but it is not an easy acquisition. It does take sacrifice and struggle as all great things in life do.

The fact they are expensive does not need defending. It is what it is and there is not much diffence from any other time in history. The Master Model has actually been underpriced in the market and I've been trying to tell everyone to think about that and get them while they are cheap. Now they are priced in the same area as the comparable instruments. I think they are still a bargain, but that is my opinion.

Mandolins are no more expensive than anything else we dream of, and one can get a workable model for a modest investment. As one grows they can upgrade and some day they too may have the instrument they dreamed of. It's all priorities. Thank you.

[Jaded]

Compared to guitars mandos certainly seem expensive, tho I think that's partly because there are more options on the lower end in guitars than in mandolins (tho MK and Eastman may bridge that gap).

However, in terms of hobbies, I don't think mandolins are really that expensive. A good used F style can be had for $1500 - $2000 and a good new one for $3000-4000...then you have the stuff for professionals, more affluent enthusiasts and those willing to sacrifice a lot of other things in the $5 - 25k range and then the collectable market (loars etc)

When you have those in the middle class who still have their jobs and decent credit buying $2k - $5k HDTVs, $40k Suvs, etc...I don't think the price of a decent mandolin seems so bad. Particularly considering that barring misuse, theft, droppage or MAS that mandolin could possibly last you a lifetime of enjoyment.

[GVD]

Big Joe Posted on Sep. 24 2004, 22:15
Then in our facility, we are required to begin using certified smart wood. #That increases the cost of the wood by about 25%. #It does nothing for the sound of the mandolin, but it is certified.

Big Joe, I realize it's not fashionable on this board to offer any praise to Gibson but I for one would like to at least thank you for Gibson's involvement in the Smartwood program. According to Google Gibson appears to be the only U.S. instrument manufacturer certified. And before all the regular Gibson bashers jump in and say "It's a toothless program etc. yada yada yada, at least it's a start and as consumers we should all demand to know where and how the woods in our instruments are harvested.

GVD

[TeleMark]

Gang:

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. I think that this confirmed a lot of what I already guessed on my own. It's great to be able to get answers from a tremendous range of builders.

For now, I'll likely stay in the upper 3 figure range (there's a used Breedlove that I have my eye on), but can see myself following Big Joe's example someday.

Cheers,

TeleMark

[jasona]

Do I crave that Nugget in the classifieds? Absolutely--every Nugget I've seen is stunning, and the tone very distinct. Will I ever spend $25K on an instrument? Um, no. I'd rather take a trip or two to Africa with my wife. That's my choice. BUT, if you do your homework, you can get a mandolin with OUTSTANDING tone even in the $1-2K range (assuming you do not worship at the alter of the scroll, of course ;) ). Seperate BRAND from WHY YOU WANT THE INSTRUMENT IN THE FIRST PLACE. I think Big Joe and Scott really nailed it.

To the initial question: apples and oranges. Compare the cost and price of flattop guitars with flattop mandolins, and arched with arched (as was pointed out by one astute previous poster).

What is the Smartwood program? One that avoids the purchase of wood cut in sensitive ecosystems/endangered species? Big thumbs up if so!

[danb]

Yes.. a little perspective is in order. I was completely stunned for almost 4 months continuosly when I was borrowing the Schultz Loar. I was on a plane to nashville, mandolin in the overhead bin.. and a lady who was sitting next to me opened up the overhead and said "ah, a mandolin". We started chatting.. she's a violinist with a symphony.. and she said something along the lines of "The Strads are getting to expensive for musicians now".. and told me that her non-strad was worth around $600,000 (I can't remember the maker, it wasn't one of the super-well known ones). She then said something about "but there are hundreds of modern makers who make fabulous instruments for a fraction of the cost, so much of it is phsychological"..

It's very true. Having had a spectacular Loar in the house that long, I can't agree more. It's a liberating experience to realize that my $3000 Czech f5 let's me do 75% of what the Loar does.. At Gruhn's I played the Loar next to a '23 snakehead A. With eyes closed, I fooled 2 ppl.

so much of what you are doing is coming from your 2 hands and not the box, but this realization comes at the expense of a lot of worrying and hemming and hawing. Having had Jack's Loar in the house, I certainly know why people like them now, but I have to say it's done more to raise my appreciation of other builders that it did to "Validate the mystique".

I've seen this phenomenon in several music circles before, I think it's a mark of how humans learn. WHen you are faced with a large body of information and variety to assimilate, the natural instinct is to start blocking off chunks of it. Look at people learning about wine, whiskey, mandoline, irish music, bird-watching. Your first instinct is to take a snapshot based on your experience and assume that things you haven't experienced are either much better or much worse.. With mandolins, you really just gotta try them all.

My philosophy is "Catch and Release" mandolin collecting. I tend to buy whichever one I like better than the one I curently have, and sell the old one. It's a sort of MAS pyramid scheme... or a stealthy way to slowly creep up the price I spend on my instrument over time!

[duuuude]

Kinda like everything else, ya get what ya pay for. It takes a tremendous amount of skill, craftsmanship, and years of knowledge to repeatedly produce quality instruments, not to mention the hours involved, and those that do so deserve every dime they get, IMWO.

[TommyK]

Bottom line, because enough people will pay $5000 more than an $5000.00 'great' mandolin. They either feel it sounds $5000 better -- or -- they want to be able to tell people they spent 5 figures on a musical instrument!
My vote is for the latter.
My other guess is that for that extra $5 or $8K dollars you'd better be getting some pearl, diamonds, silver and gold and maybe some real ivory and Brazilian Rosewood. Except for the last two you wouldn't be buying better sound, just more jewelry.
IMHO.

[ronlane3]

Joe, I couldn't have said it better. We are a product of our culture. Yesterdays highschool grad. either went to college or went to work making whatever the pay was at that time. Today's kids graduate from highschool or college expect to start out making $50K -$100K a year, buy a new $150K house, drive new BMW's or whatever. Well guess what, it doesn't work that way for most of us. That is why we are lossing jobs to other countries, but that is another topic.

I have learned Joe's lesson and have bought my mandolin in cash, so I own it not the bank and someday look to have a high end mandolin to add to the two I currently have. It will happen, just takes PATIENCE..

[TommyK]

"Amen" to the above post by Scott.

Can I say amen here? Is it pc?
PC is relative. It depends on which side of the political fence you're on. AMEN is one of the few four letter words you can use here. So, go ahead.
Can I hear an "AMEN."

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif