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steadypluckinaway
Feb-12-2004, 2:44pm
I have wondered about the marker at the tenth fret on mandos vs. the ninth on guitars. What is the reasoning? I have been brainstorming, and all I get is a 40% chance of precipitation.

Thanks for any answers.

John Flynn
Feb-12-2004, 2:55pm
This was the source of a long thread some time ago. As I remember, despite the fact that multiple luthiers and historians chimed in, we came to no conclusion other than, "It's always been done that way." No one seemed to know why it was done that way in the first place or who did it the first time.

groveland
May-12-2007, 10:21am
Trevor at TAMCO tells me that 9th fret markers are standard practice for UK made mandolin and mandolin family instruments. #He's got a lot of mandos on his walls for comparison.

mandocrucian
May-12-2007, 11:59am
It's all about lining up a few select reference notes in various octaves. Makes a lot of sense when you see the pattern(s)

10 fret marker clearly denotes the octaves above fret 5 (on the adjacent string): (Cc Gg #Dd )

==============10===
========10====5====
==10====5==========
==5================


7th fret gives you the unison to the next open string. 7-12 gives you the octaves:

===========================0======12=====
==============0=====12=====7=======7======
=0=====12=====7=====7=====================
=7=====7===================================
(DD # # # # #Dd # # # # ###AA # # # # #Aa # # # # ## EE # # # ## ## Ee #


12 fret is the octave for the open strings (of course):

E==========================0=12======
A==================0=12==============
D==========0=12======================
G==0=12==============================


Octaves skipping #a string:

========5===============10===============
==5============10========================
========7===============12===============
==7============12========================

#(Dd # # # # ##Aa # # # # ## Gg # # # # ## #Dd # #)

some mandos have position markers at the 3rd & 15th frets


octaves on the same string, again:

=========================3=15================
=================3=15=======================
=========3=15===============================
=3=15=======================================
#B-flat # # ## # #F # # # # # # ##C # # # # # # #G


octaves (adjacent strings):

===============15===========
=========15====10===========
===15====10=================
===10=======================
# # # Ff # # # # # #Cc # # # # # Gg

same pitch (unison) - different strings and positions:
==3=======================
==10======3==================
==========10=======3=========
===================10=======
# #G # # # # ## ### C # # # # # # # # #F

Niles Hokkanen

MikeEdgerton
May-12-2007, 12:05pm
Historically not all guitars have had a 9th fret marker. The early Harmony guitars (early 1900's) had the marker on the 10th fret as well.

groveland
May-12-2007, 3:32pm
So Niles, the 10th fret is a good reference for both 4ths and 5ths tunings. But the 9th fret marker is not a meaningful reference in either 4ths or 5ths tuning, it seems. What an odd thing.

mandocrucian
May-12-2007, 7:44pm
Re the 9th fret marker:

Instead of 0-5-7-9-12, if you read the position markers in a different sequence:#12-7-5-9, you get the first 4 harmonic nodes in ascending order. (octave, 8va+5th, 2 octaves, 2 octaves + major 3rd)

(i have no idea if this is valid but...) Maybe this is just some sort of historical residue from the dark ages that people just got used as the norm and carried over onto more modern instruments. Longer scaled, lower pitched instruments - the harmonics are a lot more audible. Maybe necks only had only a few (5) frets in the open position; maybe no frets. #So you had harmonic position markers instead.

Anyway, that's my impression of that inkblot.

NH

David Hanson
May-13-2007, 3:12am
The only British made mandolins that I know with a ninth fret marker are Fylde, I may be wrong.

Dave H

Peter Hackman
May-13-2007, 4:56am
Do violinists use a fifth position off the 10th "fret"?

With a marker at the 10th fret I would expect one at the 3rd as well
but two of my mandolins don't have it, while the third
has markers both on the 1st and the 3rd frets

One odd thing about the standard posititions
off the 3rd, 5th, and 7th frets,
is that they favor the
flatted keys, at least F, B flat and E flat, whereas many players
in certain idioms tend to avoid them or think of them as "odd"
or "difficult".

Eugene
May-13-2007, 9:16am
Historically not all guitars have had a 9th fret marker. The early Harmony guitars (early 1900's) had the marker on the 10th fret as well.
I believe the American guitars of that era to palce a marker at 10 did so mostly under the influence of the then-popularity of tjhe mandolin.

groveland
May-13-2007, 11:40am
Petersons (USA) have the marker at the 9th fret. Moons (Scotland) have the marker at the 9th fret. Sobells (England) have the marker at the 10th fret. Yep - It's all over the map.

trevor
May-13-2007, 12:55pm
I was looking at my Fylde and remembering that Jimmy Moon, and I'm sure some other UK makers use the ninth, but checking on my website - I'm at home now so I can't look on the walls at the shop - Jimmy's mandolin is at the tenth, others, dola, octave etc., at the ninth. So it seems that my comment to Craig should have been that its common in the UK rather than standard practice, sorry for any confusion.

.... Just did some web surfing looks like I was wrong. Ninth fret marker is Fylde and Moon (but not the mandolin, at least the one on my website). My memory isn't the most reliable.. I should have checked first.

groveland
May-13-2007, 1:55pm
Definitely not a problem Trevor - As you can see from the original posts on this thread (Feb. 12 2004, and "This was the source of a long thread some time ago"), this discussion goes way way back amongst the luthiers and historians. And the mystery continues! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

PseudoCelt
May-14-2007, 9:08am
I would guess that some UK makers such as Fylde, that started off making guitars before mandolins, just put the fret markers in the same place as on their guitars.

Others, such as Stefan Sobell, who started making OMs/citterns before guitars, might have been more likely to use a mandolin fretboard as a guide.

Patrick