What ail's the mandolin player? Is overuse injury common?

[Jake's Gig]

Watching a youtube clip of Chris Thile recently, I couldn't help but think of YoYo Ma and the physical effects of prolonged playing has on the body. Chris is stooped over his mando, and being a tall guy, I suspect over time, posture, back problems and other issues arise. As I recently have increased my playing time with the purchase of a lovely Laplant mando, I am noticing some wrist and arm effect. Can others comment on some 'overuse' effects and ways to avoid them?

[Shawn Blackwell]

Well...I'm just a beginner myself but there's some YouTube links that a guy on these forums posted. He says his technique evolved from physical problems he developed and the techniques he describes were recommended by a doctor that treated him for his ailments. His name is Pete Martin. You can search YouTube under his name.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Personally,i think the main reason that Chris Thile 'leans forward' over his Mandolin, is to be able to hear the volume & more importantly,the tone that he's producing in any tune that he plays. Try it for yourself. Lean forward just enough to bring your ears over the top of the Mandolin & the sound will be much different to what you hear from behind. It seems like i'm stating the screamingly obvious,but it's surprising how many of us judge the tone & volume of our own instruments from the back of it - you can't really hear it that way. The best way of hearing what an instrument sounds like,is to get another player (a good one if possible), to play it for you. Only then can you hear what it will sound like to others,
Ivan

[Tony Pearce]

Good point Ivan. If I played anything like CT, I'd lean over as far as I could to hear better.

[Mandoist]

This guy's question has already been lost in the shuffle.

Pay attention to repetitive injury in relation to musicians. If you put hours into your playing each day, or even weekly, it's a serious threat to your health and playing future if you don't heed the warnings. Playing posture, how you hold your instrument, how you warm-up (if you do at all)...these issues and more can help you play unimpeded into your old age.

there are the fortunate few whom never developed problems...but more and more the majority of players seem to be having serious problems after 10+ years (trigger finger, etc).

There are some excellent resources for musician's injuries (surgical fixes and prevention) out there on the Internet. Some great therapists and doctors in NYC and Nashville.

Do yourselves a favor -- don't think this is not a serious issue, then find yourself in trouble down the road. Take care of your body parts!

It's been addressed on this website and elsewhere in the past. Take advantage of the preventive suggestions by professionals (therapists, etc)...it's all out there...and it's free.

[JEStanek]

Yes overuse (repetitive motion) can result in an injury. In the wonderful Fretboard Journal article on Andy Statman a couple years ago, he mentioned how he had to balance his clarinet playing with the mandolin to prevent problems. Any physical job, if the motions are repeated, can result in injuries.

Jamie

[Goodin]

My advice that I wish I would have followed: stretch your wrists, hands, and fingers before playing, every time; and the moment you feel pain anywhere stop and take a break until the pain goes away. I recently developed 'dynamic' carpal tunnel syndrome from playing 2-5 hours a day and working through the pain. CTS (and tendonitis) are not problems that you can work through. I'm only 31, so this can happen at any age.

[jim simpson]

I have been concerned a bit with repetitive injury as I've played for a couple of square dances recently. The caller let the songs go for a long time - seemed like a Grateful Dead or Allman Bros. jam length. My left hand become pretty fatiqued. We have a fiddler who would play all night without a break, if you let him. I find the breaks between sets to be a much needed recovery period.

[MikeEdgerton]

They key folks is to listen to your body. If you have pain there's a reason. If you feel discomfort there's a reason. It might be as simple as lengthening or shortening your strap now and then to change the position of your arm.

[pgfoto]

The most frequent injury I have is to my Ego:)

[AlanN]

The hunched over body stance is something to watch out for, I think. When I pick at home, usu. sitting down, but my position is 'seated up' - straight back mostly, with strap on. I know some folks pick whilst watching TV, at a bit of a slouch. That position never feels comfortable to me and does not allow for my best picking.

[Randi Gormley]

It's been said and should be said again: pay attention to your body. this isn't a contest -- nobody gives you points for being tough; you get points for playing well. If something hurts, modify your practice. I developed some osteoarthritis in my left hand (the shooting pains were a gentle suggestion I should, uh, ease up) and knocked back practice to every other day. I, too, bend over my instrument when I play, and I make a conscious effort to straighten up and breathe, in part because my back was beginning to ache once I stopped and relaxed. Neck and right shoulder pain are also issues that come from poor posture and positioning. So, yes, overuse injury is common, as it is with any repetitive motion (I used to get a locked right pinky when I played flute for any length of time, f'rinstance).

[Pete Martin]

The website "musicians and Injuries" is a great place to start finding info about this stuff. Stretch, keep yourself in good physical condition, listen to your body, see a professional when you have pain issues, all are good advice.

A common time to get overuse injuries is when you quickly increase your work load. Increase your practice time GRADUALLY over a few weeks. Also around 40 years of age is very common for these to start happening. There are a lot of other risks factors as well.

I posted a number of Utube vids on good ergonomic basics of mando playing as taught me by a terrific performing arts doc when I was having a lot of problems. You can go to my website to get the links to those.

I think that Mandolin Cafe should put a separate category for injuries to be discussed. I brought this up with Scott a couple of years ago, but he told me he didn't think there was enough traffic on this subject for a seperate category. I see this a fair amount and have answerd a lot of these questions. If a number of us asked, maybe he would do it.

[Goodin]

The website "musicians and Injuries" is a great place to start finding info about this stuff. Stretch, keep yourself in good physical condition, listen to your body, see a professional when you have pain issues, all are good advice.

A common time to get overuse injuries is when you quickly increase your work load. Increase your practice time GRADUALLY over a few weeks. Also around 40 years of age is very common for these to start happening. There are a lot of other risks factors as well.

I posted a number of Utube vids on good ergonomic basics of mando playing as taught me by a terrific performing arts doc when I was having a lot of problems. You can go to my website to get the links to those.

I think that Mandolin Cafe should put a separate category for injuries to be discussed. I brought this up with Scott a couple of years ago, but he told me he didn't think there was enough traffic on this subject for a seperate category. I see this a fair amount and have answerd a lot of these questions. If a number of us asked, maybe he would do it.

I second that emotion.

[Piper]

I would most respectfully oppose the motion--too much temptation to bring out the hyperchondriacs. Ever listen around the locker room when all the guys are complaining about their aches and pains and comparing their surgeries--drives me crazy. We need to quit complaining and play as hard as we can til we die.

[Jeff Harvey]

I have struggled with tendonitis in both arms for years now. I remember at IBMA we were to follow Nickel Creek and I could barely hold onto my pick. It would flare up and die down on me. I eventually quit touring and didnt play mando for quite a few months to let it die down. It has, but I will still struggle with it if I overuse it in any way. My wife had sent me to a specialist and all he recommended was "quit playing if it hurts". He also said I was likely to experience this as long as I kept playing instruments that required this same repetitive motions. So, I can testify to the fact that you have a good chance at injuring yourself to the point of possibly not being able to play anymore or with limitations.

Piper, I dont like complaining...or listening to it either, but some things need to be brought up so we dont act like Lemmings! If you continue to follow "play as hard as you can till we die" as I did too....you might end up not being able to.

[Piper]

No harm intended Jeff--just trying to bring out a bit of levity. Of course, you are right--if it hurts alot then don't do it. But then again, everything worthwhile in life hurts a bit some of the time, but my point was--never give up til you have to. Everyone is different and everyone comes to the table with different weaknesses and strengths. Sooo, those who don't hurt too much--keep on strummin' and don't look back.

[mandotool]

second the motion for a forum on injury and recovery....
I'm dealing with some severe left hand issues...and am pretty much out of commission at the moment...
I was chuggin along pretty good for the last 30+ years or so and then out of nowhere...
my left hand feels like a box of rocks...
I've got an appointment with an orthopedic Dr.
fingers crossed...

[man dough nollij]

No harm intended Jeff--just trying to bring out a bit of levity.

Oh, great! Now you tell me you were kidding, after I picked my arm off...

[MikeEdgerton]

...I think that Mandolin Cafe should put a separate category for injuries to be discussed. I brought this up with Scott a couple of years ago, but he told me he didn't think there was enough traffic on this subject for a seperate category. I see this a fair amount and have answerd a lot of these questions. If a number of us asked, maybe he would do it.

I know this sounds odd but it's really an easy thing to do to establish a Social Group. That gives the members a place to go to discuss issues regarding any subject. No extra work for Scott and it becomes the repository for the information. You can link back to messages and threads that already exist as well as to outside sites and videos.

[Jake's Gig]

This has been a great discussion folks...My first thread, so very helpful with appropriate cautionary insights to the coming months/ years of playing. I would welcome a social group to focus on such a topic.
Moderator...I don't know how to insert a post-script to my replies...can you advise....thanks.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Quote :- " This guy's question has already been lost in the shuffle". Not really Kevin. In my post,i was addressing a 'point' raised by the OP,not answering the question as such ie. " Chris is stooped over his mando, and being a tall guy, I suspect over time, posture, back problems and other issues arise." .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIzKsNIRrV4
ALL the many Classical ( & Flamenco ) Guitarists that i've seen do exactly the same for exactly the same reason. Tone & expression is a huge part of their musical technique (as it should be for all of us) & you don't hear much by leaning back,away from the instrument.
On a personal note (B-flat), if i leaned forward that way,due to chronic back pain,i'd never walk upright again,
Ivan

[fishtownmike]

I suffer from carpal tunnel syndrome. i believe that i originally got it from years of incorrect posture and technique. Once you got carpal tunnel it never goes away. I was told the only thing that would help me was surgery which i refuse to get since it doesn't have a good track record. Correcting my bad habits have made living with it easier. It has reduced a lot of the pain. Not all of it though. I play multi instruments and am self taught. I believe that was my main problem since i never had no one to teach me correct posture and techniques. Someone mentioned Chris Thile's posture and when i watched his homespun dvd the first thing i said to my self was OUCH! Genius or not he's asking for trouble in the future....Mike

[Ivan Kelsall]

A few days ago,this gave me pause for thought. If somebody came along to us when we were in our teens & asked us " would you like to maybe spend up to half your life with 16 lbs of wood & metal slung around your neck ? " - not an option for most of us ,but that's what Bluegrass Banjo players accept if they want to play in a band using a well made instrument. Believe me,it's no joke. In the past,i've played up to 4 x 45 min.sets & if i'd maybe done it for long enough as many pro.players have,i'd be wondering if that was a contributing factor in my back pain. Even though i only had a band together for around 4 years,i suppose it still could be if i was particularly susceptible to that type of injury,
Ivan

[Bertram Henze]

We need to quit complaining and play as hard as we can til we die.

...which will be all the sooner then :whistling:

[Bertram Henze]

...Chris is stooped over his mando...
...ALL the many Classical ( & Flamenco ) Guitarists that i've seen do exactly the same for exactly the same reason.

I am not sure if the effects are the same. With a large instrument like a guitar, you've got something to lean on and the back might not have to hold the posture all by itself. A mandolin, OTOH, doesn't provide much support like that.

[Piper]

Oh, great! Now you tell me you were kidding, after I picked my arm off...

New topic: one armed mandolin players. I'll just bet ya that there are some folks out there who can play the mando with their feet--bet ya.

[Bertram Henze]

Oh, great! Now you tell me you were kidding, after I picked my arm off...

For options what to do in that case, consult Anakin and Luke Skywalker :popcorn:

[AlanN]

It's interesting that watching clips of the early mandolin pickers - Big Mon, Bob Osborne, Jesse, even later guys like Duffey, Wakefield, Sizemore - these guys all seemed to have proper posture: no slouching. Granted, the clips are mostly of them standing up on stage, but I can't picture Bill hunching over his mandolin the way Chris Thile does. Bill was one stout fellow.

Butch Baldassari stressed proper practice technique and posture.

[bmac]

Or... in some cases... More playing is better... I am in my seventies and in my case I complained to my doctor that I was having painful finger joints as I began playing mandolin five or six years ago. he replied that the only remedy for it was to use my finger joints more and regularly... from that point on I have played mandolin three to five hours a day. The pain in the joints lessoned and eventually went away completely. I suspect i could play a few more hrs per day and have no pain at all.

[Randi Gormley]

Well, on the upside, a guy I know who plays penny whistle and cello -- started both in his 60s -- recovered faster from a couple strokes because practice helped re-connect neural pathways. But I think that's a different issue.

[Piper]

One theory is that we are all born with certain limitations/genetics. Sometimes as we age those "flaws" become more obvious depending upon the activities we choose in life. For example, not all pianists would get carpal tunnel even though they play as intensely as others who do. Now, this is not a slam against anybody's current or near future problems. Stuff just happens. Sometimes the cure is to stop doing what you are doing and sometimes it is to do more of what you are doing, as in the above posting. So, as someone said earlier, listen to your own bod and do what is right for you. Bad posture is never a good thing--You should listen to mom and your teachers. I have seen some fiddlers who hold the fiddle in the oddest way, but it seems to be comfortable for them and they do well with it. Hooray for individuality. "Dr." Piper.

[fishtownmike]

I think the sitting down playing an instrument is one of the things that can lead to bad techniques and posture. It so easy to get sloppy while sitting. I know when I stand and play it Kinda forces proper posture and technique.

[Shawn Blackwell]

Carpal Tunnel Syndrome (CTS) has been mentioned quite a bit in this thread. In 1999 I started having a lot of muscle and joint pain in my shoulders, neck, arms, elbows and wrists. I was experiencing tingling/numbness in my hands also. Several years later, after seeing multiple doctors/specialists, I was diagnosed with fibromalgia and CTS. At a family reunion one of my cousins told me she was having almost identical symptons and had undergone surgery for the CTS, which did not help. I finally went to a world-class orthopedic/neurosurgery clinic in Houston. They found herniated discs in my neck and told me they were causing all my problems. My neck was operated on in 2002 and all those symptons related to the CTS went away. My cousin did the same and the reults were identical for her(except she has scars from a useless CTS surgery). My point is that CTS can be mis-diagnosed.

[Bertram Henze]

"Dr." Piper.

You should start walking on a stick and make a TV series.... :cool:

[Piper]

Huh?

[moconno1]

There is a syndrome called Focal Dystonia that many musicians develop - similar to carpal tunnel but has to do with neurons in the brain not firing right as a result of continuous repetitive motion. The best advice is simply to take a lot of breaks and stretch properly before playing.

[Piper]

Wait a minute...There is actually a product that creates calluses???? Has anyone tried this product? I'm cheap, but would be worth a try especially if it does not affect tactile sensation and does not create additional medical problems:(.

[Bertram Henze]

Huh?

It's not Huh, it's House (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjkCl3-PId8) ;)

[Piper]

My wife and I have one of those.

[Various]

I have found it to be very effective to just mix it up as far as finger activity goes. About 7 years ago I started having chronic wrist & hand pain from typing on my computer. About the same time I took up fingerstyle guitar playing and within a relatively short period of time my hand pain went away and stopped recurring.

Occasionally I overdo it on the mando (like playing for 5 hrs straight) but if I also keep typing, playing the Guitar, Banjo, Bass, Ukelele & just remaining active in general I have found that it never escalates, so far. Different instruments make your fingers move in subtly different ways. That being said . . . I'm pushing 40 so I think I'll be checking out those ergonomics videos on Youtube.


I also love Greg Irwin's Finger Fitness video. If you've never seen it you should check it out . . . it's great!

[moconno1]

Wait a minute...There is actually a product that creates calluses???? Has anyone tried this product? I'm cheap, but would be worth a try especially if it does not affect tactile sensation and does not create additional medical problems.

Try it....that's all I'll say :)

[Piper]

Actually, since I did not hear from anyone about this I went on a net search and found the "original" stuff. If that does not work, I'll get my money back and try somethin' else.

[woodwizard]

I suffer from carpal tunnel syndrome. i believe that i originally got it from years of incorrect posture and technique. Once you got carpal tunnel it never goes away. I was told the only thing that would help me was surgery which i refuse to get since it doesn't have a good track record. Correcting my bad habits have made living with it easier. It has reduced a lot of the pain. Not all of it though. I play multi instruments and am self taught. I believe that was my main problem since i never had no one to teach me correct posture and techniques. Someone mentioned Chris Thile's posture and when i watched his homespun dvd the first thing i said to my self was OUCH! Genius or not he's asking for trouble in the future....Mike

Hey Mike ...I think if your carpal tunnel is really bothering you... you should go for the surgery. I've know a lot of people that are better off by getting it done. Our Guitar player in my OT band just had it done on his left hand and guess what? He's as good as new , no more pain or numbness. Didn't take very long for him to get back to picking either. Our fiddle player had it done on his left hand as well several years ago. They are both better off now. The medical technology has come a long way. If I was having that sort of problem I would not hesitate getting the surgery scheduled. As you mentioned ... it won't go away on it's own. Get rid of that carpal tunnel blues. :mandosmiley: Can't hardly even see the fiddle players scare from surgery and the guitar players fresh scare reminds me of the 1/4 inch little scare I got from having my knee scoped. In other words not much of a scare nowadays.

[woodwizard]

Oh & as far as calluses go ... guess I'm old fashioned... cause I got mine the old fashion way by picking.

[Piper]

I think anybody can get calluses the old fashion way--I know I did not use lots of brain power in building up mine. However, if there is a product that makes it easier, less painful and more efficient I'm going for it. I have found that if my fingers don't hurt as much I can practice more and longer. Years ago I learned that anybody can dig post holes with the old fashion post hole digger, but if you really want to do it efficiently, you go for the "real" post hole digger. Old fashion is good sometimes, but I don't generally miss the so called "good ole days.":)

[woodwizard]

I see where your coming from Piper. Didn't mean anything against that product. It could be a good thing for some folks. I was just thinking to myself I guess that my calluses probably couldn't get any thicker than they are right now or maybe I should say they don't need to be any thicker. :) And your right ... not all old fashion ways are the best but a lot of them are IMHO. I'm a wood carver/sculpturer. I do it the old fashion way with a mallet and chisels. Sure I could use a duplicator or power tools but I don't. It takes about 3 months to hand cavre out a 6 to 7 foot Indian but I just like the old fashioned tradition of doing it that way and have been doing it for about 30 years. Probably won't ever change.

[Piper]

Hope you don't change your ways. You are an artist and the "old fashion" ways appear to be part of your art. I am a struggling, but very happy, amateur musician and calluses are merely a means to an end. Tried the product today--kinda like it so far, but will need to give it some time. My wife, the music teacher, laughed when I told her about the product. I think it is somewhat of a placebo effect as I am not so self conscious about the slides on the e strings--not worried so much about getting a cut. Feels different and if the advertising hype is true I should still be building calluses without a lot of the sensitivity. Gonna be easier to practice longer, I think. Take care.

[robert.najlis]

I have heard of may people who got surgery for carpal tunnel, only to find the surgery did not help. Sometimes the reason for carpal tunnel is somewhere other than the wrist (postural reasons have been mentioned already in this thread). I think there are lots of things to try before resorting to surgery.