Great article on 3-D imaging on instruments/Stradivari's violins

[Bigtuna]

It would be cool to see this done with a couple of Loars (or any mandolin at that). Maybe it has and no one is talking? I'm sure many an instrument has been x-rayed, the Dude in the Fretboard Journal was pretty cool.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/Scanning-a-Stradivarius.html

[mrmando]

The first comment published at the end of this article pretty neatly sums up the problems with it. Is there something one can learn with a CT scanner that one couldn't have learned with a Hacklinger gauge and a dental mirror?

[eightmoremiles]

FYI in the winter 2002/2003 issue of Mandolin Magazine there is an article about CT scanning of mandolins, written by yours truly. I was not the first to try the technique on wood acoustic instruments, but I was the first to write about mandolins. And I did scan three Loars, as noted in the article, as well as several other old and new mandos. There are some concepts which were not explored in the Smithsonian article that I think are important, including detection of subtle repairs and "fingerprinting" the woodgrain of the top or back wood, as an aid to identification in case of theft. I no longer have free access to CT scanning, but would be interested in discussing the subject if anyone out there in mandoland wants to investigate further.

[Charlieshafer]

Mr. Mando hit the nail on the head, here. It's all at the point of pointlessness. The magazine "The Strad" has long run very technical articles on thickness, varnishes, etc. The most recent edition has a very involved and well-researched article on varnish analysis done on 5 verifiable Strads (something not worried too much about in the past) on small patches of unaltered varnish (something also almost impossible to find). The results of this incredibly technical, complex, multi-faceted and expensive work? Well, they think they know a little more, nut aren't really sure, as the complex molecules of certain organics change through the years, and as the pitches used in various varnishes are close enough chemically before they age, it's tough to be sure.....

The net result was a little more of a curiosity, as they can't be sure of much of anything. One thing is for sure: as most of the Strads have very little original varnish, saying that it's the varnish that makes a Strad better is pretty risky.

Air volume? Everyone knows what that is, and has been, for 300+ years. Shape? Same thing. Little ice-age slow-growth wood? Other builders had it, too, and there's still some around.

So after all the technological giggles and kicks are finished with, there's really only one question left...Did Stradavarius just get lucky?

[Ravenwood]

So after all the technological giggles and kicks are finished with, there's really only one question left...Did Stradavarius just get lucky?

I think the answer to your last question is no. I say no because he wasn't alone in the quality of his instruments. The Guaneri family, and the Amatis also made truly exceptional instruments. I think it was more a matter of fine craftsmen, with fine materials working in a time when the products of their work were well appreciated and popular.

[zookster]

In our machine/computer age, I think we tend to overlook what a true craftsman, with a passion for perfection, can achieve. A pair of human hands will always be the best tools for instrument building. Like a lot of other disciplines, there is little substitute for experience. Strad learned from some of the best (the Amati family), and then went on a lifelong quest to realize his ideas in wood.
Of course, there is no doubt talent was a big part of the equation. But.....the fact that we see his work change over his career, both in design and execution, connotates a "searching" that any modern luthier can relate to. What's your most interesting project? It's the NEXT instrument....
According to Hill, Strad more than likely didn't make his own finish, but purchased it at the store down the street like everybody else. So much for the magical varnish. The finish also dried very slowly. One irate letter from the King of Spain chastised Strad for the quartet of instruments sent that were still "sticky" when they arrived. I guess he really did put on his knee breeches one leg at a time.
To view one up close, however, you get the sense of just how talented he must have been. The detail is nothing short of exquisite. And we already know about the sound!!
I have never thought Strad's success was due to secret finish, cutting a tree in the dead of night on the north slope of a grove of ancient maples, equally secret treatments to the wood, or some unusual twist to graduating the plates. It is a testament to hard work over the life span of one hugely talented human being.

[toddjoles]

Every piece of wood is different. A CT scan can show what was done on that particular piece of wood or instrument, but how does that tell you how to carve a heavier, denser, very stiff top? While it's cool to see the differences, I'm not sure how it would be of much use in building a new instrument.

[billhay4]

The article is cool precisely in that it has stimulated such civilized and interesting comment on it.
My gut feeling is the same as zookster's: it was hard work, training, and talent, and these don't show up on a CT scan.
Nonetheless, the CT scans certainly stimulate some interesting conversation.
Bill

[Jim Garber]

My friend Sam is deeply into that sort of thing: Strad 3D Project (http://strad3d.org/cms/). He is also a very well-respected violin maker.

I am at work, but will read this thread thoroughly when I get home tonight.

[foldedpath]

The first comment published at the end of this article pretty neatly sums up the problems with it. Is there something one can learn with a CT scanner that one couldn't have learned with a Hacklinger gauge and a dental mirror?

The Wikipedia article on CT says "...because of the inherent high-contrast resolution of CT, differences between tissues that differ in physical density by less than 1% can be distinguished."

A 3D map of the wood density across the full surface of the instrument, would tell you something you couldn't get from just a thickness measurement. The article didn't have enough information to tell if that's what this research is actually doing.

[Charlieshafer]

There is a lot of really neat but inconclusive information out there regarding that period of instruments. The one that seems to hang around the longest is that the wood harvested during this period had, 2-300 years earlier, gone through a mini-ice age, thus reducing the ring diameter, making the wood in general more dense, and also more uniform. As Ravenwood correctly pointed out before, there were a lot of great makers out there during this period. As mandolin makers are a little more forgiving in top material, it would be interesting to see what kind of sound could come out of a Port Orford cedar top, where the trees were estimated to be 800 years old. They're protected, but a couple of guys have the license to harvest natural blow downs. The wood is beautiful. Hmm, I have enough right here... Actually, it seems a little soft, even with the super-tight growth rings. Anyone tried Alaskan Yellow Cedar? Another VERY old tree, with growth rings so tight you need a magnifying glass. Maybe too dense, no?