it would seem I am progressing :)

[theCOOP]

Even as recently as December through February or March, learning a new tune was agaonising, and could take me several weeks, literally. Infact, a couple tunes I was working on in that time (June Apple and The Butterfly) still haven't clicked.

But it seems that I am progressing in every way I can think of.

For example, last weekend, within only a couple hours, I had worked through Kesh Jig, and spent a couple days fine tuning it. Later in the week, it was the same with Flowers of Edinburgh but quicker then finally, late last night, I started messing with Red Haired Boy, and by early this morning, i'm fine tuning it.

I credit a few things to my recent success. 1) the few brief lessons I took between last Halloween and Chistmas 2) I find Barb Shultz' youtube videos very very helpful. They're nice clean examples that are easy to learn from and 3) I'm finding it increasingly easier to play without looking at the fret board, meaning I can finally read the music and play at the same time.

Also, I think my mind and fingers are starting to do things that i'm not really aware of at the time. It seems, even when my fingers haven't yet remembered the tune, they automatically play through what seems to be the next logical note, whether I know what the note is or not.

There are times when what I hear in Shultz' videos doesn't match what I'm reading on paper, but I can fill in the blanks, again, whether I know what the note is or not.

All in all, I'm happy with my progress and I'm having a lot of fun. I imagine, soon, that I'll be able to turn to a new tune in the book and play it pretty good without having heard it before.

I never imagined a year and a half ago that I'd even progress this far.

All in all, I wouldn't be this far if it weren't for Mandolin Cafe. Thanks folks :)

Coop

[Grommet]

Sounds like you are moving right along! That inspres me to continue as well. I liked the way you explained the prgression of aquiring new skills. I started mando a month ago, after plaing guitar for a long time. I played guitar mainly by ear, reading standard notation only for choir years ago, and pennywhistle. I had never learned tabulature, but I am working from tab for the mando now. I was pleased to find that i could sort of sight read the tab, not needing to look at the fretboard too often. The layout of the mando neck is much easier for this than guitar. Nearing completion of a basic mando method book(Dennis Caplinger's). Now if I could only aquire a clean G chop chord!

scott

[Bertram Henze]

I have added Butterfly to my repertoire recently, and it is quite easy once you get the 9/8 rocking your chair. I might record it these days, though I cannot guarantee to be of as much help like Barb is (my OM version rather sounds like "The Drunken Vulture") :grin:

Progress comes in sudden bursts, with long static phases in between - that's normal. You are entitled to look forward to more. :)

[tchr5150]

That's awesome! As a new player I've also had the same experience lately. It's great to suddenly realize that a tune that you used to struggle with is now second nature.
I have also really enjoyed and been helped by The Song a week social group. These videos have been a great inspiration to me in my practice. Another thing that really helped me was working on music I really enjoyed. I struggled to stay motivated when I was practicing a mish mash of tunes, but really began to take off when I started working on Celtic music (which I really enjoy playing). Congratulations again on your progress!!!

[theCOOP]

I have added Butterfly to my repertoire recently, and it is quite easy once you get the 9/8 rocking your chair. I might record it these days, though I cannot guarantee to be of as much help like Barb is (my OM version rather sounds like "The Drunken Vulture") :grin:

Progress comes in sudden bursts, with long static phases in between - that's normal. You are entitled to look forward to more. :)

Bertram, are you working off TAB for Butterfly? I got turned onto the tune by a video of a young guy playing it but haven't found tab similar to what he's playing high up the neck. I can get some of it by watching, but then he loses me.

I forget where I got my tab for it from. But I find it difficult to play. Sometimes I get what feels like a kink in my fingers (I hurt myself once a little over a year ago, involving a car's strut, the top nut, and trying to remove said top nut with an impact wrench whilst holding tightly onto the strut rod), and this paticular becomes bothersome.


Anyway, while learning Red Haired Boy, I learned it completely withut looking at the fetboard. The following day (yesturday), I got terribly lost while looking at the fretboard for some reason.

Finally, unfortunately, the success of one tune seems to come at the expense of one or more prior tunes. Sometimes I play a tune very well (or so I think) while I'm learning it, ut not so well after learning a new one. I do try to run through all of them, especially while learning a new tune (and taking a break from it).

Does anyone else eve get to the point where, though you play a tune well, it starts to not sound like music anymore, but more like some secret code that you've broken? Sometimes I love a tune while I'm learning it, but once I get it, I sometimes lose interest.

[Rob Gerety]

Sounds great. I love it when you get that feeling that you have improved. Keeps you coming back.

Lately I have been trying to learn tunes by ear - I don't read tab or notation anymore except once in a blue moon to check something I can't hear clearly. I find that learning tunes this way gets easier and easier the more I do it. They stick in my head better too.

[Barbara Shultz]

First, let me say thank you for the kind words about the Song a Week Social Group (and my videos)....

I think that the sooner you can play music without looking at the fretboard, the better. I think it's bad for your posture, your neck, etc., and really is unnecessary! Those frets are always in the same place! When you get to the point that you can HEAR whether your finger is in the right place.... things really take off!

The whole notation/tab/ear learning thing.... When I first took up the mando 5 years ago (where does the time go!), I had never played any stringed instrument. My teacher didn't read music or TAB, so all my lessons were just learning my ear. I probably played for at least a year, only learning that way. To learn tunes other than those he was teaching me, I started building my collection of CD's of mostly Celtic tunes. I'd play them through my media player on my computer, repeating the hard parts, till I got it. But then, I wanted more. Some tunes are just hard to figure out totally by ear, if you are only listening to them at speed.

I took piano lesson from about age 6-12, and learned to read simply piano music. Then, I took pop organ lessons for a year or so in high school. Then I went the rest of my adult lifetime, not reading any music, or playing any instrument.

But, I figured that I knew enough simple music theory from my childhood, and could read music. I seem to remember they also taught us how to read music in music in elementary school, didn't they? The hardest part at first, was the fact that I thought of written music as it applied to a piano/organ keyboard. I can identify notes is on a piano keyboard much faster than on the mandolin fretboard.

I like to have the notation to learn a tune. Seeing it on paper helps me visualize the flow of the tune. Of course, I also like to be able to hear the tune, to hear the sound of it. I also think that hearing a tune you are learning so many times, that when you are playing it, the tune is playing in your head, and you are just playing along with your fingers.... you have to KNOW what the sound is that you are aiming for, and then you will hear when you've achieved it, or hear when you haven't!

Congrats on your progress.... it's a great feeling, isn't it!

[Bertram Henze]

Bertram, are you working off TAB for Butterfly? I got turned onto the tune by a video of a young guy playing it but haven't found tab similar to what he's playing high up the neck. I can get some of it by watching, but then he loses me.

I learned notation as a child. I use it to kick off practising of a new tune but let go as soon as possible, doing much by ear, just like Barb said above ("Those frets are always in the same place!" - Wonderfully put, and true :)) ). Just as I don't need a map to find my way from the living room to the kitchen, the first 7 frets of the mandolin are familiar without looking. There are some threads here about practising in the dark - you should try that.
Many Song-a-Week videos seem to contradict that - some of us are staring at their left hand, but that is only a concentration aid, because our fingers are mostly faster than our eyes anyway.

You don't have to go high up the neck in Butterfly (7th fret on E is the top note in the B part). Watch Barb's video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IkXEEOTNi0).


I hurt myself once a little over a year ago, involving a car's strut, the top nut, and trying to remove said top nut with an impact wrench whilst holding tightly onto the strut rod.

That's the kind of repair job I always turn away from because I can't watch splatter movies...

[billkilpatrick]

congratz' - i myself have good days and bad, when learning a new tune is easy or not, but the process is never odious on a mandolin. always curious to see and hear an epiphone - any videos in the offing?

[Susan H.]

Coop, good for you. I started out reading tab, but have since gone to notation. I got tired of tabbing out all the songs I didn't know. Now a whole new world has opened up to me. It doesn't hurt that I'm playing fiddle/violin now either, which helps. It's wonderful that we have someone here on the forum like Barb who is willing share her knowledge and talents with us. Thanks Barb. And Coop, keep up the good work. You sound like you're ready to jam now. :grin:

[Goodin]

Sounds great. I love it when you get that feeling that you have improved. Keeps you coming back.

Lately I have been trying to learn tunes by ear - I don't read tab or notation anymore except once in a blue moon to check something I can't hear clearly. I find that learning tunes this way gets easier and easier the more I do it. They stick in my head better too.

Same here. I don't use tab at all anymore. I learn completely by ear. I have noticed that as I progress I can learn tunes much faster, easier ones almost instantly, and figure out what key a tune is in before I play it. I think that comes from many hours of listening, practice, and sessioning. I strongly suggest Amazing Slowdowner. A great tool to slow down tunes, loop, and change keys.

Congratulations on your progression Coop! Isn't it rewarding and addicting?

[theCOOP]

Thanks folks. I can't quote everybody, but yes, it's a lot of fun, and very addicting. I spend a lot of my free time with a mandolin in my hand.

I've said it before, but I'd never played any instrument before and the only music lessons I'd had were from Elementary school. I kicked around the idea for many years of learning either Mandolin, Fiddle or Bagpipes...guitar just didn't really interest me, though I think at some point, I'd like to pick up a 12-string, and a Bouzouki, etc. Anyway, for a long time I wasn't satisfied with just listening to celtic music, I wanted to be able to create it (or, that is, play my fav tunes). As such, when I think about some day playing very well, possibly on a stage for others, it nearly brings a tear to me eye.

A lucky side effect to playing with improved technique is that it seems my mandolins have stopped buzzing :) and now that I can play without looking at the fretboard, the tunes flow more licely, as I'm not watching to make sure my fingers are in the right place. Also, as I becomes more confident, and loosen up, I get a lot more movement in my right arm, and naturally improve/lighten my grip on the pick, and find that as my playing improves, I don't need to mash down on the strings with my left fingers as I did when I was starting out.

I still think I'm a ways from learning from standard notation, because, well, I don't know the notes and I don't know where they are on the fretboard. I don't know what notes i'm playing as it is right now... guess that's the fault of the TAB.

Lastly, I didn't see Barb's video for The Butterfly. This video here is the first time I'd ever heard it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZfnSqT_dag

[theCOOP]

That's the kind of repair job I always turn away from because I can't watch splatter movies...

Oh, it wasn't gruesome. I had the spring compressors installed and all, but there's no wrench-flats or anything on the main rod that travels in and out of the strut body, so you gotta hold it somehow and it's hard chrome, so even large pliers can't get a grip.

Anyway, with the impact-action, I realsed after holding the strut rob after a while that I couldn't release my grip. I had dislocated a couple fingers, marginally, but as we were pulling into the clinic parking lot, I felt a pinching sensation near my wrist, and upon squeezing said wrist, my fingers relaxed. But they've not been 100% since.

Oh, and shortly after I got the mandolin, I got a bad wood splinter at work in the tip of my left index finger. Some days, it feels like it's still there. Basically, it's the part of the tip that gets the most pressure.

[Bertram Henze]

I don't know what notes i'm playing as it is right now... guess that's the fault of the TAB.

I agree with you there - it's like Painting-by-Number :grin: (ducking and running)

I strongly recommend to learn some basic theory - scales, circle of 5ths etc. - you'll wonder how you ever survived without it.

That guy in the video you linked has a very unusual fingering style for Irish playing - looks like he's used to ffcp chord progressions. BTW tab of that would look funny, I guess, because of the high fret numbers. Better stick with Barb :mandosmiley:

[theCOOP]

Absolutely no offense to Barb because it's not her fault, but what she is playing (The Butterfly) sounds flat to me (compared to the other video) because I'm used to hearing it that way now. What Barb is playing sounds like the TAB I've found, and it sounds flat when I play it too.

But then again, with so many low notes on Red Haired Boy and Flowers of Edindurgh, compared to others I've played, they too sounded flat to me until I got the hang of them. So much so that I thought my D strings were out of tune or the intonation was messed up, but it checked out good.

[Bertram Henze]

I suppose by "flat" you mean without ornament. "Getting the hang", i.e. getting acquainted to a tune and adding your own ornaments and expression is indeed neccessary to make it sound interesting. No tune comes out of the box with this, neither in TAB nor in notation, you have to create it yourself. That guy in your video did a lot of chords and doublestops - you can do that in any key, but it is never in TAB or notation. Here's what I do (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M58z4gr0sq8), and it works for me. Or look at Eddie's version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPg9MzbW7-E) for using slides. So many ways, but you must walk them.

But to learn the basics of a tune (what you need to build upon), it is better to have a version without all that. That's why Barb's version is a better start.

[theCOOP]

Thanks BTW to whoever corrected the title (and/am). I'm still used to other forums where I can edit mistakes until I'm blue in the face. I'd think the group here would be able to handle said responsibility moreso than my other tuner-car group, but that doesn't matter.

Anyway, maybe I'm butchering the terminology, but compared to the video I posted, which was my first introuction to The Butterfly, the standard version which Barb played and which I have TAB for, seems off, like, I dunno, like it just doesn't taste right I guess.

The version of The Butterfly I posted doesn't look or sound terribly ornate to me, just different. I don't see why it couldn't be written in tab. All the notes/chords/slides etc. can be represented in tab.

Anyway, it doesn't matter.

Oh, and by "Getting the hang" of the tune, I meant, simply, being able to play it through, simply and fluidly without the help of the sheet music/tab.

[Barbara Shultz]

CooP, I checked out that video. He's playing it in a different key than we are. I can usually hunt and peck and find stuff up the neck, but I usually don't play up there (but it's good to learn to do that!)

To me, it looks like if you want to play what he's playing up the neck, with your fingers on the A strings, put your first finger on the 5th fret, your 2nd finger on the 7th fret, your 3rd finger on the 8th fret, and your pinky on the 10th fret. When you go down to the D strings, you'll use frets 5, 7, 9 & 10. When you are on the E strings, you'll use frets 5, 7, 8 & 10. Start the tune on the 7th fret of your A strings, hop down to the 7th fret of your D strings. If you've already got the melody in your head, you should be able to find it... it falls right under your fingers in that position in that key on those strings!

[Barbara Shultz]

CooP, not sure what you meant about the editing... and maybe a moderator will chime in. I'm thinking that on the regular forum (like this) it's set up so you have a certain time frame after you post, that you can edit, then after that, you can't. I think that was set up so that people couldn't post something 'inflammatory' and get people riled up, then go back and change what they'd posted. In the social groups, you can edit your posts as many times, and whenever you want (I think!)

The thing about this kind of music, the way I see it, is the written music (Tab or notation) is your framework. How you choose to interpret it, embellish it, what speed, what feel you want to give it, is up to you. Some people like reels so darn fast you can't tell a thing... others like them slower and with feeling.... I don't think there's a right or wrong way.... its a matter of personal preference. You can take the same basic tune, and play it slow and dreamy, jiggy, hornpipey, whatever key you'd like....... that's the beauty of it!

[theCOOP]

Thanks for the tips Barb. I had played some of The Butterfly like in the video, but I got stuck. It's all good though.

regarding the editing. The title of the thread did read it "would seem I AND progressing :)". Someone fixed it by changing it to "...AM progressing". (thank you) On (an)other forum(s) I am on, I could've changed it myself in 1 minute, 5 minutes, tomorrow, next week, next year...I'd just expect most folks I've encountered here to be responsible enough to be able to edit their own posts.

If I say something inflamatory about your post, and you quote me, on other forums (i think using the same software/programs/framework or whathaveyou) and I delete or alter my post, your post quoting me still reflects exactly what I said in the first place.

But, it's all good.

But like I said, Flowers of Edinburgh and Red Haired Boy sounded off on the D string when I fist started playing it, but then I got the right tempo, inflection or what have you. I'm sure the same thing will happen with the standard version of Butterfly.

[JeffD]

Those slip jigs. At first they seemed to me like a bowling ball in a refridgerator box falling down stairs. But once you catch on, they are addicting.

For all the Celtic tunes, I find it best to practice them in groups of the same kind. Learning The Butterfly is a bit easier if you are simultaneously working on Rocky Road to Dublin, and Fig for a Kiss (Gurglin the Churn), Kid on the Mountain. Catching on to the rhythm of one helps with all the others. And its easier to learn a new tune when the rhythm is already under your fingers.

Same with double jigs, hornpipes, reels whatever. I like to learn them amongst their own.

[Bertram Henze]

The version of The Butterfly I posted doesn't look or sound terribly ornate to me, just different. I don't see why it couldn't be written in tab. All the notes/chords/slides etc. can be represented in tab.

The subtle customizations mark the true masterpiece. I suppose he learned that tune by ear once and figured out himself how to play it, using his own techniques. And I would not be surprised if he would have a hard time trying to write it down (I wouldn't bother to write down mine, to be frank). It feels like you just walk and somebody sees it and asks you for a manual about how to walk like you.

[Barbara Shultz]

CooP... The inner workings of this forum are foreign to me. When it comes right down to it, this is Scott's website, and he's got it set up (within the constraints of the software) how he wants it, for whatever his reasons are. I do think I've noticed that you can't change the title of a post, so if someone changed it on yours, it must have been an administrator. Strange, though, if you didn't ask... I've never noticed that they took the time, on their own, without requests from the posters, to fix our typos and bad grammar! However, there have been times I've screwed something totally up, and have requested Scott to either remove or fix it, and he's been very accommodating.

A--7----------7---------------7----------7-9-10-7-5
D----7-10-7-9---7-10-7-9-7-5--7-10-7-9 ------------9-5

If I were going to play this up the neck in this key, that's how I'd do the first part. For some reason, the guy in the video plays the first 3 phrases in the 5th postion (as I tabbed) but then plays that last phrase in the first position. ( and I would play 7 9 10, and he plays 7 10 10)

This seems to be the 2nd group of phrases

E-----5-7-8-----8-5--------------5-7-8---10-12-10-8-5
A-7-8-------7-8-----10-7-5--7-8------------------------10-7-5

I know what you mean, about having it in your head (from a previous source) of how your brain thinks a tune should sound.... many times, once it's in there like that... any other verson just sounds wrong! Comparing the video you linked, other than the fact that he's playing it up the neck in places, and adds a strum in places, I think the main difference in how it sounds, is the key change... but that's just me!

[theCOOP]

(This is the third time typing this into "Quick Reply". The fist two times, I've hit "+Reply to Thread, just up to the left there, instead of the proper buttom dwn below "Post Quick Reply".)

Thanks folks for those last few posts. I'll have to pick up Rocky Road again. Didn't go so well the first few times I picked it up.

I've been away from MC mostly for a couple weeks as about the time this thread was on the go, I lost a cat to disease. Dusty was a very clever, dog-like Orange Tabby, about 6 years old. Then about a week later I brought home MacGowan, also known as Mac or Max, a beautiful large Black Lab who is about 2.5 years old and now seems as though he's been here all along. The right dog came along at just the right time.

Anyway, though I haven't learned anything new in a couple weeks I have been playing with combining Flowers of Edinburgh and Red Haired Boy, playing them completely in sequence and also interjecting one into the other quite nicely.

Is there a proper way of doing this, and not just "whatever sounds right"? I've just being going right into RHB after playing through FoE, and then going from one part to another and then usually finishing with the B part of RHB before stopping.

I quite like it.

Cheers,
Coop