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dan in va
Mar-18-2010, 3:46pm
Someday I'll most likely want to buy from a fellow cafe member. How do I go about it in the least risky way? There are rascals that try to get into every board, so how do I tell the wolves from the sheep?

I figure the moderators and those who have been posting for years are the good guys, but there are first time posters and everything in between.

Thanks...dan

JeffD
Mar-18-2010, 4:01pm
I would not hesitate to consider classifieds on this site. A lot of work is done to keep the barbarians outside the barbed wire.

Jim MacDaniel
Mar-18-2010, 4:07pm
I agree whole-heartedly with Jeff, and have made many a transaction in the classifieds here as both a buyer and seller. If you are still worried or feel compelled to do additional due diligence, you could always ask the seller what their classified owners' MC forum handle is, so you can see how long they've been a member of this fine little community that Scott has built.

rgray
Mar-18-2010, 4:37pm
The only hesitation I would have is that a first-time visitor to the Cafe can post an ad without becoming a member and then disappear. I would be more comfortable buying from a known Cafe member who has been around for awhile.

Added - But I see Jim's post about asking for an MC forum handle which is a good idea. It would be nice if that info could already be included as a basic part of the ad.

grassrootphilosopher
Mar-18-2010, 4:51pm
Someday I'll most likely want to buy from a fellow cafe member. How do I go about it in the least risky way? There are rascals that try to get into every board, so how do I tell the wolves from the sheep?


My answer is - I think - valid for every aspect of life. In every possible situation you could get burned so first of all you´ll have to be able to evaluate the possible risk involved.

If you´d feel inclined to buy a Lloyd Loar instrument you´d make sure to have a person to person contact, a written contract with the necessary paperwork etc. That eliminates most of the possible risks (though not all as we see from the Country Music Hall Of Fame respectively Monroe´s mandolin ad Mother Carter´s guitar)

If you purchase a run of the mill product as for example a CD, a pic etc. you´d be interested to get the product and not waste so much time checking the internet. So you sacrifice some security for a lower price.

It get´s interesting when you buy an "intermediate" product (pricewise that is). With about 2.000 USD you are interested in knowing who you deal with, what the product is, who takes responsibility for damages while the shipment is in progress etc.

Well, if it ain´t easy to check up on a person, don´t do business with them. Even if the person can be checked up upon find out about what they are. The white pages, official records etc. all have data about people readily available via the internet. This also goes for overseas contacts. A couple of phone calls enable you to determine a certain "gut feeling". The message board provides quite some interesting information about people when you learn how to read between the lines. Companies do it all the time to check on their employees (for example for derogatory facebook remarks or inapropriate behaviour on the net.)

In the end only all´s well that ends well.

MikeEdgerton
Mar-18-2010, 5:28pm
This gets discussed quite often. Here (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?57913-Buyer-security-on-Cafe-classifieds&highlight=classifieds) is a recent thread.

man dough nollij
Mar-18-2010, 7:51pm
I recently sold a mandolin to a Cafe member, and I've considered buying a few. I think it's a good idea to talk with the seller on the phone, and get his/her Cafe handle if possible. I think most folks on the Cafe Classifieds are on the up and up, but it never hurts to cover yourself. If you have the sellers name, address, cell number and e-mail address, and have talked with them personally, it is much less likely that they will try to sell you a bill of goods. In my recent transaction, the buyer overnighted me a postal money order for the agreed-upon price plus shipping. As soon as I got it, I UPSed him the instrument. I suppose he was running the risk that I would cash his money order and not deliver, but I'm not sure how to guarantee that-- maybe he got lucky with me.

mando.player
Mar-18-2010, 8:02pm
I've bought and sold several instruments on the Cafe. Most recently a Clark 2 point which is the most I've ever spent on an instrument. I can't say there wasn't a bit of anxiousness on my part. I paid with a Cashier's check issued from my bank, which I believe provides some audit trail since it's issued in the seller's name. Not fool proof, but better than a money order I guess.

With that being said, I've never had a problem. At the recommendation of a friend I also googled the seller's name and city. Turns out he was a doctor in that town. Again not fool proof, but reassuring non the less.

Earl Gamage
Mar-18-2010, 8:31pm
Don't be fooled. There is some risk. If you send money, check, whatever it is gone whether you get anything in return or not.

Probably over 99.9% of transactions go fine.

...and Master of None
Mar-18-2010, 8:35pm
Just FYI bank cashier's checks and commercial (non-USPS) money orders are probably the least safe methods of making internet purchases (interestingly, they are also the least safe methods of accepting payment for internet transactions). When you're sending a cashier's check or MO, you have no way to know that the receiving person is who they say they are. All they need is a reasonably good fake ID to cash the check and run. When you're the one receiving the check you have no way to know if it's legitimate. Often you can cash a check at your bank and they'll credit your account after a three-day hold for the check to "clear" - then a week or two later you find out the check was fraudulent... This has been the basis of one of the largest eBay scams for years ("cash my buddy's cashier's check and send me a money order for the difference" - probably sounds familiar to most).

The safest transaction is an escrow deal - but you have to be cautious and ensure you're using a legitimate one - some eBay scammers were setting up fake escrow web sites to allay suspicions - then ripping people off anyway.

The next safest long-distance transaction is probably a credit-card transaction through PayPal. Yes, the seller is going to have to pay a premium of around 3% (sometimes buyer and seller can split the fee) but it provides reasonable protection for both parties. Note that I said a credit card transaction - if you do an eCheck, PayPal balance, etc. then in my opinion PayPal's guarantees aren't worth the screen pixels used to display them. I say this because a few years ago I ran into a fraudulent seller on eBay. He ripped off a few dozen people and then disappeared when all the negative feedback started rolling in. PayPal "investigated" the situation for weeks until I finally reported the fraudulent charge to my credit card company before their grace period for fraudulent claims was up. Then I heard from PayPal - in the form of a "nasty gram" asking me not to reverse credit card charges until they "had a chance to investigate."

I haven't made any kind of PayPal transaction that wasn't backed by a credit card since.

Edited to add: I may have unintentionally implied that USPS money orders are safe. They aren't significantly safer than any other instrument - but you may get the satisfaction of having the feds prosecute the perpetrator of fraud if they're ever caught. Just don't imagine that plane loads of g-men are going to swoop into town to investigate your claim if you're ripped off via US Mail and USPS money order. :))

John

Bill Van Liere
Mar-19-2010, 12:12am
This likely the best mandolin store in the world.

Talk to the person, if it does not feel right forgetaboutit, the deals are endless here. Get everything in writing (including the trial/return policy) and have some trust. I bought two mandolins here; one from a guy that posts often and one one by a guy who sells often and does not post, both are well know among members. Ask questions, send out some PMs to people that seem connected to the seller. Lots of upstanding members here, lots of great mandolins also.

wsugai
Mar-19-2010, 12:23pm
I agree with everything said below and just want to add that buying off of the classifieds, whether it's this website or Craigslist, or whatever, will always generally be priced lower because of the difference in risk. In general, buying from a dealer is lower risk, because a dealer has more to lose via fraudulent practices or even a displeased buyer.

For the risk averse (like me), one way to approach this dilemma is something like: if the difference in price between two same things is less than [%], I will buy (locally vs. mail-order)(dealer vs. private party). The [%] that you assign is a measure of how risk averse you are.


Just FYI bank cashier's checks and commercial (non-USPS) money orders are probably the least safe methods of making internet purchases (interestingly, they are also the least safe methods of accepting payment for internet transactions). When you're sending a cashier's check or MO, you have no way to know that the receiving person is who they say they are. All they need is a reasonably good fake ID to cash the check and run. When you're the one receiving the check you have no way to know if it's legitimate. Often you can cash a check at your bank and they'll credit your account after a three-day hold for the check to "clear" - then a week or two later you find out the check was fraudulent... This has been the basis of one of the largest eBay scams for years ("cash my buddy's cashier's check and send me a money order for the difference" - probably sounds familiar to most).

The safest transaction is an escrow deal - but you have to be cautious and ensure you're using a legitimate one - some eBay scammers were setting up fake escrow web sites to allay suspicions - then ripping people off anyway.

The next safest long-distance transaction is probably a credit-card transaction through PayPal. Yes, the seller is going to have to pay a premium of around 3% (sometimes buyer and seller can split the fee) but it provides reasonable protection for both parties. Note that I said a credit card transaction - if you do an eCheck, PayPal balance, etc. then in my opinion PayPal's guarantees aren't worth the screen pixels used to display them. I say this because a few years ago I ran into a fraudulent seller on eBay. He ripped off a few dozen people and then disappeared when all the negative feedback started rolling in. PayPal "investigated" the situation for weeks until I finally reported the fraudulent charge to my credit card company before their grace period for fraudulent claims was up. Then I heard from PayPal - in the form of a "nasty gram" asking me not to reverse credit card charges until they "had a chance to investigate."

I haven't made any kind of PayPal transaction that wasn't backed by a credit card since.

Edited to add: I may have unintentionally implied that USPS money orders are safe. They aren't significantly safer than any other instrument - but you may get the satisfaction of having the feds prosecute the perpetrator of fraud if they're ever caught. Just don't imagine that plane loads of g-men are going to swoop into town to investigate your claim if you're ripped off via US Mail and USPS money order. :))

John

Lefty Luthier
Mar-19-2010, 4:09pm
Most legitimate luthiers have a professional quality website. That is a good place to start but keep in mind that the casual shopper who calls a dozen times or e-mails a ton of questions with no intention of ordering wastes my time, which is money. Best method is word of mouth referrals both ways.

Mike Bunting
Mar-19-2010, 4:22pm
I bought a mandolin off the classifieds here . It was cross border, me in Canada, him in Wisconsin. We spoke on the phone and via email. I sent him the $ with an M.O. from my bank, he contacted me as soon as he got it and I could see by the tracker that the mando was shipped within an hour of his receiving the M.O. I have purchased several smaller items through the classified section and have never had less than a stellar experience, guess I lucked out in managing to deal with people with integrity. My thanks to them. I just wanted to post a positive response, I hope others can have as positive experiences here as I have had.

Bob DeVellis
Mar-19-2010, 5:16pm
I've bought through the classified here (from Butch Baldassari, among others, RIP) and have swapped instruments through the classifieds here. In all cases, things went very smoothly. If the other party is a cafe' member, I feel more assured. But really, after talking to people, I had the sense that they were like-minded music enthusiasts. I had their phone numbers and addresses. In some cases, I searched the internet. In each case, I got the sense that the other party was completely legit and that proved to be the case.

Having said that, a really good con man (or woman) will make you feel completely at ease, too. They don't call it a confidence scheme for nothin'. I've known swindlers (having worked at an amusement park as a teenager and in mental health later on). I've seen guys work cons repeatedly that weren't strictly illegal but that skillfully misrepresented the chances of success (hint: if the prize is really great, rest assured that you ain't gonna walk away with it unless you've paid for it three times over). Working in psychology, I've come across people who routinely deceived others with no compunction whatsoever. Victims not only don't see these things coming but they often refuse to believe they've been had, even after the fact.

Also, I have actually been swindled twice. The first time, I was working at a bank. A very well-dressed woman had a very large transaction that involved a substantial amount of cash going to her in large denominations. I counted out the cash, she re-counted it right in front of me and asked me please to check it because she got a different result than I had. Her hands and the money never left the counter in front of me. (Had the cash left my sight, policy would have dictated that I not alter my original disbursement until balancing my cage at the end of the day.) I recounted and it was $100 low, so I apologized and added $100. That night, when I settled my cage, I was $100 short. I have no doubt what happened. She skillfully palmed a $100 dollar bill, right under my nose. It was the only transaction that day involving enough cash for the discrepancy to have occurred. It was also the only occasion on which there was any discrepancy in my accounts -- a surprisingly rare state of affairs in the banking world of the time. She was really good. The second time I was duped, my wife wasn't feeling well. We pulled into a gas station to fill the tank, because we were low on gas. She was feeling really crummy and I was preoccupied, worrying about her and wanting to get her home as soon as we could. A guy came to the window, asked us what we wanted, and began pumping the gas. He then returned, we paid him, and left. We got my wife home and she eventually felt better. The next day we went out to do some errands, and ran out of gas just a few blocks from the house. The guy hadn't put any gas in the tank but just took our money. He didn't work at the gas station. He spotted our distractedness and knew we wouldn't be monitoring the gas pump. He leaned into the driver's window a bit so that I couldn't easily see the pump. It was all very clear -- in retrospect. My point is, if you get targeted, you'll get taken. People who do this sort of thing professionally are extremely good at it. I'm not sure how he managed averting the suspicion of the people who actually worked at the gas station. He wasn't a local they would have known. But professional scammers know exactly how to assuage your concerns, what you're likely to ask for, and how to present themselves. What truly amazes me is that they bother with scams that only yield $100 in Case 1 (on a transaction involving thousands of dollars) and about $30 in Case 2.

In the end, there are no guarantees. This is also true from internet dealers and also brick & mortar shops. My wife and I ordered a piece of furniture from a local business some years ago, only to learn a few weeks later that they'd gone bankrupt and our deposit was gone. Everyone has to find their own comfort zone, somewhere between naively stumbling through life waiting to get plucked and never trusting any living soul. The cafe' isn't a place I worry about terribly much, although I try to do due diligence and to get to know something about the other party. That probably affords some protection from amateurs but not pros. I'm just hoping that the pros are looking elsewhere (like eBay) where it's a lot easier to blend into the background.

dan in va
Mar-19-2010, 6:59pm
There are some really good experiences and ideas posted here, and Mike E's link takes us down an informative road also.

There's an intenet deal that I'm deciding to walk away from. It's an uncommon model mando I've been looking for but the seller has a no return policy and won't budge. I've asked for the right to return if the condition turns out to be otherwise. All questions are structure related, but he still won't allow a return in my case. It didn't sell at first price and was relisted lower. He gives me a song and dance about stuff getting returned and says it's not about standing behind the sale.

This is the first time a seller hasn't agreed to my objective criteria, so I'm not going to bid, even though I'd really like to buy it. He didn't answer my emails with the first listing, so that could be an indication of how hard it might be to get my money back. Wishful thinking and excess optimism will most likely lead to undue worryation. I'm better off keeping my money than getting stuck with a warped neck at the end of the day. I guess it's time to be strong.

fishtownmike
Mar-20-2010, 12:23am
Like anything there is always a risk buying or selling online. Now if the seller has just joined the forum and a very minimal of post i would be very weary of dealing with this person. Now if he's been around here and is known by others maybe not as weary but i would still have some concerns especially when talking large sums of money like some of these instruments go for. Remember there were no background checks or credit reports when becoming a member of this forum. Just an email address, and their not hard to come by....Mike

Mandolin Mick
Mar-20-2010, 1:21am
I had a very positive experience with buying a Gibson mandolin through the Cafe Classifieds. I made sure the seller had many previous ads (he had 19) and the purchase went through PayPal. There was a 24 hour period where I could return the mandolin if not satisfied. He answered all my questions truthfully regarding the condition and sound of the instrument (dings? chop has bark? etc.). He also sent me more pix via e-mail at my request. I couldn't be happier.

Tracy Edward
Mar-20-2010, 1:56am
It would be nice if the Cafe' had, say in your profile, an area that a buyer or seller could post an attaboy for a sale that went smooth, like a recommendation area that potential buyers or sellers could check and see ("Oh Banjoman has 13 Attaboys or recommendation from other members) you could only have it if you were a member, I think there are allot of members that have had many honest transactions that warrant being noted, and as for the drive bys they would have an incentive to become a member, and a little more transparent.
I am sure it sounds easy to do, but from a Site Developers perspective "NOT"

"Just a Thought"

Tracy Edward

grassrootphilosopher
Mar-21-2010, 10:30am
You could also ask for folks that would and could give a thumbs up. You know, this is a small community. The chances are that you know someone who knows someone etc. THis is just another alley to explore when checking up on someone.