Effects of Humidity and Temp - my mando has been going sharp

[Martin Whitehead]

Hi! I recently got a hydrometer/thermometer and have been monitoring the temp/humidity in the basement where I keep my instruments. The humidity runs averages around 50% and the temp has been 59-64 degrees. My mando (Morgan Monroe Phantom) hangs on an exterior wall, 3-4 inches from the wall, so it may be a bit cooler right where it hangs. I do not use a humidifier inside the mando. I live in the Kansas City, MO area, so it does get cold outside. Lately it's been running b/t 30-45 degrees out.

My question is this. Since I have been hanging my mando instead of having it in its case (about 2 weeks now), it tends to go sharp over all eight strings during the 24 hours b/t playing sessions. When I kept it in its case it did this a tiny bit, but now its running several cents sharp. Any thoughts on why and whether this is a problem?

[Martin Whitehead]

One other thought. The strings are overdue for a change.

[Ken Sager]

If the humidity is constant your strings go sharp due to the cold. Don't hang it on an outside wall where the temperature fluctuates more. I live in Wichita and store instruments against interior walls and humidify the whole house all winter.

HTH,
Ken

[Martin Whitehead]

If the humidity is constant your strings go sharp due to the cold.

Hmm. I wondered about that, but cold makes wood contract, which should make the strings go flat (loosen) instead of sharp. Also since the wall is below ground level, there shouldn't be much in the way of temperature fluctuation. It's almost always 59* when I go down there. I turn on the space heater and it will get up to 62* or 64*

:confused:

[Denny Gies]

Keep it in the case.

[Coffeecup]

Hanging your mandolin up by the neck is stretching it. :grin:

I think that the expansion and contraction of wood is a lot less than that of metals. Conversely, humidity changes would affect wood but not metal.

I don't know about this. If it was due to temperature and your strings are always sharp after a 24hour break wouldn't that imply that the temperature is always lower each succesive day?

[rico mando]

i live on the north coast.my mando goes sharp or flat with the change in barometric pressure.which happens a lot here.i surf so i pay attention to such things.but what do i know

[Rob Gerety]

Is your temperature and RH gauge placed right near the mando on its hanger? Bottom line I don't think you can go too wrong with the environment your keeping.

[Martin Whitehead]

Denny, of course you are right. I just like looking at it on the wall. But now it's a puzzle I'd like to figure out. Coffeecup, very funny; and no, the temp is always 59* when I go to the basement. Rico, unfortunately I don't have a barometer. RH, yep the hydrometer is on a sheld right next to the mando. I guess I don't HAVE to have a definitive answer to why as long as everyone agrees that it's not hurting anything. Thanks guys.

[mandroid]

My Mix A5 is pretty tuning stable, but its not made of wood, The minor pitch changes are not unusual,
it's just the nature of things.
storing it in the case is a good idea , never know what goes bump in the night . :whistling:

[Ken Sager]

Cold strings go sharp, you retune and play and warm it up. Next day it's been in a stable yet cool environment and the strings have gone sharp again. Retune. No big deal.

Sharp happens.
Best,
Ken

[Ivan Kelsall]

I know for certain that the humidity in my living room varies by next to nothing (humidity gauge in situ),however the temp.does.
When cold,my mandolins go sharp,when warm they go flat. Also,when cold they sound like planks with strings on,when warm, they almost play themselves,& as Ken above says,re-tuning is no big deal. Now re-stringing - aaaaaagggggghhhhhh !!,
Ivan:(

[Martin Whitehead]

Ivan, it's funny you should mention restringing. I just restrung last night and it took over an hour. I've been putting strings on things for years, but I've decided I HATE changing mando strings. What a pain in the BUTT! I think y'all are right about it being the strings expaning and contracting and not the mando. My fears that the environment is harming my instrument are allayed. Thanks.

[Ken Sager]

I learned a long time ago that the 20 minutes it takes to change strings is another way to bond with my mandolin. I love changing strings. It's all in how you look at it. You're doing great; you monitor humidity and temp, you play, you care. Now learn to love changing strings and you're that much closer to nirvana.

Best,
Ken

[Martin Whitehead]

Ken, we're not that far away from each other. I'll just bring my mando to you next time I need strings. ;o)

[Ken Sager]

I'm in Nashville at the moment and driving home to Wichita tomorrow. I could pass through KC around lunchtime. I'll restring while you make sandwiches.

[Martin Whitehead]

LOL, Ken. I wish I'd known that last night!

[JGWoods]

My mandolins, fiddles and guitars all go flat as the cold and dry takes hold in the Fall, then in the Spring as the weather warms and gets more humid they go sharp. The tops sink a bit in the colder, lower humidity environment and the tops rise up a bit as the air is more humid in Spring.
I do use a room humidifier to keep things fairly stable- keep cracks away- but it still fluctuates and the changes are easily observable.
So- it's Spring and you mando is going sharp- normal. Tune it down to A440 to keep stresses off the top and enjoy.

[300win]

I keep my main mandolin in a stand most of the time. I do not have any device in my case to control humidity. But in my experience with my mandolins and guitars even the ones left in the case changes in humidity and temp effects them esp. mandolins. I live in North Carolina where we have extremes of single digits in the winter to up to 100 + in the summer, with a big himidity change both seasons, but in summer most of the time it is like a sauna here. When that happens any instrument will swell up, even banjos with all that metal bolting everything together, but esp. mandolins, and I think it is because #1 they are small, and #2 carved thinner in places that other instruments are not. But that is just my opinion, I might be as wrong as I can be for the thinking of the reasons.

[Martin Whitehead]

Alright Ken, let me ask you this about restringing. My biggest frustration is that the loops keep slipping off the pins while I'm trying the make a couple of wraps around the peg on the other end to get the winding process started. Do you (or anybody?) have trick for holding the loops in place (like a third arm)?

[rico mando]

I hold the mando on my lap or table. string the hook then the tuner. i use one arm to keep tension on the string via thumb and index finger (by pulling up)use other arm to spin the speed winder keeping tension til my thumb gets stuck under the string.both hands are at the headstock for this.careful not to bend the string .

[Martin Whitehead]

Rico, that's what I try to do. You must be more coordinated than me. :redface: Or maybe I just need more practice. Ugh.

[Martin Whitehead]

You know what? Nevermind. I found this thread that tells me all I need to know. http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?59845-Changing-strings&highlight=changing+strings

Wish I'd have checked here last night BEFORE I changed my strings. That'll teach me.

[mandroid]

my method just has the right hand pulling loop against hook, left does all the other stuff. as the tension goes up
from turning the winder , take the right hand out , and shake it all about, then do the Hokie Pokey ,
thats what it's all about .

:grin:

[Ken Sager]

A Bill James tailpiece makes all the difference in the world. On a mandolin without a James, I use my right forearm to hold tension at about the 17th fret and work fast. Use a mando peg winder and nippers to cut the strings quickly. Nothing to it.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Martin - simply put a small piece of BluTak over the string loop/pin & you'll be able to juggle with the Mandolin & the string won't come off. The problems i have with re-stringing all centre about the 2 non-standard tailpieces that are on my mandolins. Firstly,the Weber tailpiece has a confoundedly small slot to get the strings through & the loop onto the pin. My Lebeda t/piece,has string 'pins' (as per Allen style T/pieces),but the strings need to sit in slots cast into the underside of the front edge of the t/piece.Getting the strings to stay in the slots while fastening the strings to the tuners is a pig of a job. I'm re-stringing the Lebeda up today & i'm going to try a chunk of BluTak to do that job as well. Maybe i'll get it done without turning the air blue with cussing !!!,
Ivan~:>

[Malcolm G.]

Maybe try a capo as well as the BluTak - works for me. (I cuss anyay - part of the ritual.) :)

[Rob Gerety]

I don't have any Blu Tak. But I sometimes use a piece of masking tape.

[Barbara Shultz]

I'm very lucky in that I have a fellow band member who has the whole string changing thing down pat, and so she does it for the rest of us (bless her heart!) But, I was thinking about how to keep the loop end on the hook, if you are doing it alone, and wondered if this would work. You can buy an art eraser (I got mine at Hobby Lobby) that is a pliable blob of something. Seems you could just press it lightly over the loop to hold it in place and free up both hands for the winding part....

[Martin Whitehead]

I like the sticky tac idea; I'm definitely going to try that next time. Now here's an interesting quirk on the strings going sharp over 24 hours. I put new strings on Wed. nite, stretched them just bit, tuned 'er up and played for maybe 20 minutes. Last nite (Thurs.) I pick 'er up and one string was a teeny bit sharp (like half a cent). The other seven were dead on in tune! So the eight old strings would go sharp and the new strings didn't. :confused: I expected the new strings to be way out of tune, just because they're new. Oh, the mysteries of physics.

[Ken Sager]

The new strings were still stretching maybe? I think so. Just restring each night and it'll be in tune next morning!

[300win]

I'm like anyone else, only have two hands. I've never had any problem putting on new srtings.

[Ivan Kelsall]

After re-stringing,i used to leave the instrument overnight to allow the strings to stretch. A few weeks ago,i re-strung my Weber & decided for the first time to play it right off - what a surprise !!. It sounded & played wonderfully.The strings did stretch to a small degree & but after re-tuning,it was an utter joy to play.
I did re-string my Lebeda yesterday & managed to keep the strings (well,all but one) in their string-slots & only stabbed my thumb once.I played that straight away as well & had exactly the same experience - it just sounded terrific. After a few hours,it sounded as good as i could ever wish. No more overnight string-stretching for me,
Ivan;):mandosmiley:~:>

[Jan Ellefsen]

The effect of humidity changes in instruments is a familiar problem for piano tuners (and pianists). In areas with cold winters, indoor humidity may go as low as 15 – 20 % and this will of course also affect wood and make instruments go flat. (Indoor humidity should ideally be around 50 %).
Piano sound boards are also arched, but of course much less than an archtop mandolin or guitar. In the humid season the wood swells and the instrument will go sharp. In pianos this effect is most noticeable in the mid section.
This will also affect the string height in archtop mandolins, so it will be a good idea to raise or lower the bridge accordingly.
A tip for piano owners is to get their pianos tuned after, and not before seasonal humidity changes. It will then stay in tune for a longer time. Temperature changes in itself does not affect wood, but will to a very small degree affect metal and the effect is so small that it should not be of any consequence to the tuning.

[Marni Sorrick]

Martin - I live in the St. Louis metro, near the Mississippi River. I've noticed that the guitar that spends most of his time in the basement (not favorite instrument) always is sharp when I take him out of the case. I don't bother to humidify that case during the winter months, either. But the instruments that live upstairs are hydrated and monitored carefully. Seems to make a great deal of difference between upstairs and downstairs, at least in my older home (built 1940's).

[Martin Whitehead]

Marni - Thanks for you insight. I have since come to the conclusion that new strings don't go sharp nearly as easily as old strings. All I can figure is that the new strings have more "play" in them whereas the elasticity of the old strings was pretty much shot. I don't know. It's an interesting study in physics though!

[Perry Babasin]

My biggest frustration is that the loops keep slipping off the pins while I'm trying the make a couple of wraps around the peg on the other end to get the winding process started. Do you (or anybody?) have trick for holding the loops in place (like a third arm)?

Someone here at the cafe clued me into a neat trick just for this problem. First of all I change one pair at a time and start on the outer extremes E and G and work to the middle. Loosen cut and remove the first pair. Hook a string loop on the peg (personally I do two at a time) and then pull them fairly tight with your hand, up from the tailpiece, capo about halfway up the neck. Take your time lashing the perfect wrap and tightening the string, the capo holds the loop in place just fine...

[bgjunkie]

I have also heard of people using those small magnets, the really strong ones. Just don't drop it on you mando and dent your finish.