Kay Mandolin or mandola?

[wheels]

I just purchased a blonde Kay mandolin. This is the first instrument I have seen that was made by Kay. I under stand Kay went out of business back in the mid 60's. This instrument is in absolute new condition and appears to have been used very little if at all. The tuning pegs are enclosed geared and the adjustment is very smooth and precise. It is a little different than the mandolins I'm familiar with. It is like an 'A' style but has a body that is 2 2/2" deep rather than the normal 2" body depth. The upper body shape is also fuller than most mandolins. The scale length is the normal 20". The beautiful tone is much deeper and mello than an 'A' style. What do I have? An octive mandolin, a mandola, or an alto or bass mandolin?

[Bernie Daniel]

As far as I know there is no set rules but mandolins are typically a bit under 2" in depth with a scale length of around 14"; mandolas just over 2" depth and scale length of around 16" -- so what you have is larger than a mandola and smaller than a mandocello with a body depth of about 3.5" and a scale length of around 25". Those are Gibson specs. So looks like the size of a typical octave to me.

[MikeEdgerton]

Kay mandolins were always a little deep. You probably have a mandolin. The enclosed tuners are probably Kluson's and that would place it in the 50's to 60's range. The down side is that it is a laminated body and top and if the neck joint is solid you're in the minority. Post a picture.

[Jim Garber]

I under stand Kay went out of business back in the mid 60's.

I am sure that the company has changed hands but mnot sure if they actually went out of biz altogether. Kay Website (http://www.kayguitar.com)

[MikeEdgerton]

I think the original Kay company closed, someone owns the name now.

Some Kay history (http://kingofkays.com/history.aspx).

[Bernie Daniel]

"Kay mandolins were always a little deep. You probably have a mandolin."

But he also noted a 20" scale -- that is too long for a mandolin isn't it? Indeed a picture would help.

[Bernie Daniel]

"...original Kay company closed, someone owns the name now..."

What would be kind of interesting is a detailed discussion of how Kay and Harmony (instrument manufacturers) and Sears & Roebuck and Montgomery Wards (mail order general stores) were inter-related. All four were based in Chicago.

Both Harmony and Kay made instruments (sold under many different named Silvertone, Airline etc.) to the two mercantile chains. Looking at the instruments in a casual fashion I conclude there was some cooperation between the two?

Chicago was hot. Warshawsky's and J C Whitney (autoparts) were there too --those catalogs overlapped! -- lots of connections? But that is OT I guess.

[John Rosett]

But he also noted a 20" scale -- that is too long for a mandolin isn't it? Indeed a picture would help.

20" is longer than a standard mandola too.
To the original poster: When you measure the "scale length", are you measuring from the nut to the bridge?

[MikeEdgerton]

I'd be real surprised if it was anything other than a mandolin from Kay.

Bernie, there are several books that discuss Kay and Harmony and the relationships to Sears and Wards. Harmony was actually owned by Sears for a period of time. Chicago was the geographical center of the country (somewhat) in the days when things moved via rail. That's one reason why the big catalog houses prospered there. Kay, Harmony, and Regal all made instruments "for the trade".

[zombywoof]

Kay, and about five other companies were all based in Chicago due to Sears.
There is a big difference between pre- and Post-War Kay instruments.

Pre-WWII Kays can be fine instruments. I would put my little mid-1930s K-2 archtop up against any Gibson costing three times as much when new. Although most of their instruments have a bent rather than carved tops, Kay also came up with an adjustable neck that worked like a dream and darn near got the first to get an electric guitar into production.

Kay went out of business along with Valco (who then owned it) in 1969. The current Kays have no connection with the older guitars.

[MikeEdgerton]

Actually pre and post war they weren't much different. They took a slide in the 60's and became real sketchy. Kay pioneered laminated tops and backs as well as pressed "arch tops". They saw it as a selling point. There are some Kay ads here from the 30's touting it (someplace). The early 30's stuff was much different than the late 30's stuff and even back then the neck joints were pretty sketchy. They had some interesting instruments over the years. They are documented pretty well in the Wheeler book and a few others.

[Paul Hostetter]

Kay, and about five other companies were all based in Chicago due to Sears.

Not really. Sears owned Harmony, and some jobbers around Chicago, notably Tonk Brothers (who inherited the remains of Lyon and Healy) contracted with Kay, Regal and Harmony, among others, to scatter mostly budget instruments around the world. Kay was primarily affiliated with Montgomery Ward. 99% of Airlines (a Monkey Ward line) were Kays, while 99% of Silvertone (Sears' line) were made by Harmony. Harmony was big enough to occasionally sell some product to Wards that was labeled Airline, hence the occasional Kay instrument that wasn't laminated.

My first guitar was essentially identical to this except it was gold and a pale yellow (pus) green rather than white and black. A ghastly instrument by any measure.

http://i24.ebayimg.com/04/i/001/30/83/d3a3_3.JPG

[MikeEdgerton]

A ghastly instrument by any measure

My first guitar was a Stella made by Harmony in the early 60's (I eventually had a Kay as well) and I'm shocked when I see people pay what they pay for them now.

[Bernie Daniel]

My first guitar was a Stella made by Harmony in the early 60's (I eventually had a Kay as well) and I'm shocked when I see people pay what they pay for them now.

I notice on eBay that most of the Harmony and Kay arch top guitars go for just over or just under $200 -- but from time to time -- if its one of the better models or in exceptional shape some bring $400 - 500. There is not a real clear pattern because I don't think many know what they are bidding on. However there are some great web sites (http://harmony.demont.net/)with a lot of detail on the various models, pictures as also images of pages from the old catalogs. It seems to me a lot of them have neck problems -- when did Harmony and Kay start using truss rods?

I do not see so many of the Kay and Harmony mandolins for sale though.

[Paul Hostetter]

The one I showed above had a starting price of $775.

[MikeEdgerton]

Bernie, Harmony in the 60's started labeling their instruments as having "Steel reinforced necks". I never saw one with an adjustable truss rod. they might have done some in the mid to late 60's, I wasn't paying a whole lot of attention to those.

Paul, I'm choking a bit on that starting price.

[wheels]

I measured the scale from the nut like some sources say. The distance from the nut to the bridge is 15". I noticed will plating that the two lower courses seem to be a higher pitch. This instrument is absolutely in perfect condition. There isn't so much as a smudge and has an appearance of quality. It is quite obvious that this particular mandolin wasn't a lower end model.

[MikeEdgerton]

I'm sure it's a mandolin, post some pictures of the instrument.

[zombywoof]

Not really. Sears owned Harmony, and some jobbers around Chicago, notably Tonk Brothers (who inherited the remains of Lyon and Healy) contracted with Kay, Regal and Harmony, among others, to scatter mostly budget instruments around the world. Kay was primarily affiliated with Montgomery Ward. 99% of Airlines (a Monkey Ward line) were Kays, while 99% of Silvertone (Sears' line) were made by Harmony. Harmony was big enough to occasionally sell some product to Wards that was labeled Airline, hence the occasional Kay instrument that wasn't laminated.



Tonk Brothers came rather late to the game. Lyon & Healy/Washburn, Larson Brothers, SV/Kay Kraft/Kay, Sammos (made by the Osborn Manufacturing Company), and others were attracted by not only Sears and Wards but the Chicago Musical Instrument Company (which became the parent company of Gibson), the Aloha Musical Instrument Company, and other distributors.

Tonk Bros. later acquired the Lyon and Healy, Regal and Washburn names (If I recall, Washburn had already been sold by L&H to another maker).

[zombywoof]

Bernie, Harmony in the 60's started labeling their instruments as having "Steel reinforced necks". I never saw one with an adjustable truss rod. they might have done some in the mid to late 60's, I wasn't paying a whole lot of attention to those.


Harmony started using steel re-inforced necks in 1956. Not sure when Kay started using them but it was after 1957.

[zombywoof]

In the mid-1920s, Kay hired Joseph Zorzi away from Lyon & Healy. Zorzi had been in charge of mandolin production for L&H.

A 2 1/2" body depth is not unusual for a Kay mandolin. I have seen them from the 1930s on with this fatter body. I would guess the top of your A style is spruce and the body and back are laminated maple. I have seen more than a few of these that had alot of flame. I know Kay made a tenor mandola in the the 1930s but do not think they produced any after WWII.

The older Kays used a quality laminate (they got it from a local Chicago supplier) - layers of good quality wood glued together. Not sure when they switched but by the time the company disappeared, they were using cheaper laminates meaning a nice veneer over some layers of cheaper filler wood. Kays also made alot of instruments with solid birch back and sides stained to look like mahogany.

[wheels]

zombywoof,

My instrument has a laminate top. The tone is much deeper and lower than the standard 'A' style. I would say it is at least an octive lower than standard. In comparison,
It sounds like a man's baritone voice compared to a tenor. What you you mean by the statement, "I have seen more than a few of these that had alot of flame."

A 2 1/2" body depth is not unusual for a Kay mandolin. I have seen them from the 1930s on with this fatter body. I would guess the top of your A style is spruce and the body and back are laminated maple. I have seen more than a few of these that had alot of flame. I know Kay made a tenor mandola in the the 1930s but do not think they produced any after WWII.

The older Kays used a quality laminate (they got it from a local Chicago supplier) - layers of good quality wood glued together. Not sure when they switched but by the time the company disappeared, they were using cheaper laminates meaning a nice veneer over some layers of cheaper filler wood. Kays also made alot of instruments with solid birch back and sides stained to look like mahogany.[/QUOTE]

[MikeEdgerton]

In the mid-1920s, Kay hired Joseph Zorzi away from Lyon & Healy. Zorzi had been in charge of mandolin production for L&H...

You need to get a copy of Hubert Pleijsier's book Washburn Prewar Instrument Styles. Some of what you're saying "was" the accepted thought, it isn't any more. Hubert's book certainly enlightened me when I read it.

[Paul Hostetter]

You need to get a copy of Hubert Pleijsier's book Washburn Prewar Instrument Styles. Some of what you're saying "was" the accepted thought, it isn't any more. Hubert's book certainly enlightened me when I read it.

Thank you for saying that, Mike. Between Hubert Pleijsier and Michael Wright, a great deal has come to light.


Tonk Brothers came rather late to the game. Lyon & Healy/Washburn, Larson Brothers, SV/Kay Kraft/Kay, Sammos (made by the Osborn Manufacturing Company), and others were attracted by not only Sears and Wards but the Chicago Musical Instrument Company (which became the parent company of Gibson), the Aloha Musical Instrument Company, and other distributors.

Tonk Bros. later acquired the Lyon and Healy, Regal and Washburn names (If I recall, Washburn had already been sold by L&H to another maker).

No. J. R. Stewart acquired all the L&H stuff in May of 1928. In August of the same year, they had to sell all of it to Tonk Brothers. 1928 is hardly late in the game. Moreover you make it seem as though Sears attracted these outfits from somewhere else, but that’s simply not the case. Sears owned Harmony outright, and Harmony was able to even sell stuff to Kay and/or Montgomery Ward.


In the mid-1920s, Kay hired Joseph Zorzi away from Lyon & Healy. Zorzi had been in charge of mandolin production for L&H.

Zorzi was building fancy guitars, not mandolins, for L&H, before he went with Stromberg-Voisenet. See the cover of the Pleijsier book. Some folks think he designed the “Venetian” body, but he didn’t—he simply adapted an earlier design motif to a guitar model in 1933. He left L&H for better pay at S-V, but basically never built anything of quality again. He had once been an amazing luthier. (He opted for a better paycheck. I can sympathize!)


A 2 1/2" body depth is not unusual for a Kay mandolin. I have seen them from the 1930s on with this fatter body. I would guess the top of your A style is spruce and the body and back are laminated maple. I have seen more than a few of these that had alot of flame. I know Kay made a tenor mandola in the the 1930s but do not think they produced any after WWII.

The older Kays used a quality laminate (they got it from a local Chicago supplier) - layers of good quality wood glued together. Not sure when they switched but by the time the company disappeared, they were using cheaper laminates meaning a nice veneer over some layers of cheaper filler wood. Kays also made alot of instruments with solid birch back and sides stained to look like mahogany.

I’ve yet to see a Kay instrument made of solid wood, at least one actually made by Kay that wasn't contracted from one of the other Chicago shops) or even quality laminated wood. Basswood in the middle, usually basswood on the outsides too. This is not quality. It’s quick and cheap. Birch was (and is) a common (in many senses) and substantial wood, much in use by Oscar Schmidt before that company was bought out and imported to Chicago. It has Harmony's signature material, and they made contract instruments for Kay on occasion. Basswood is equally as common and cheap, but is about as soft as a hardwood can get. All those pulled-up Kay necks? Basswood—it compresses easily. The look of maple with the strength of pine.

[zombywoof]

Never read the book. I have played Kay guitars for alot of decades and still own two. The all-birch birch guitar is alot louder and brighter sounding than you would expect with real chunky upper mids.

I have also owned two Schmidts - one made when OS was still alive and the other made after Carver acquired the company. The difference between these and the Stella branded Harmonys is night and day although the 1940s and early 50s brownburst Harmonys do look cool.

[Jim]

I had a nice Kay f hole arch top electric from the early 50s, a fine sounding instrument. Had to use light strings though, I ran it through a C.T. scanner and there was no form of truss rod or reinforcement. To the OP I too would like to see a picture and also to know what the measurement is from nut to 12th fret.

I measured the scale from the nut like some sources say. The distance from the nut to the bridge is 15". I noticed will plating that the two lower courses seem to be a higher pitch. This instrument is absolutely in perfect condition. There isn't so much as a smudge and has an appearance of quality. It is quite obvious that this particular mandolin wasn't a lower end model.
I'm not sure what the OP means by the statement about the " lower courses seem to be of a higher pitch" My recomendation other than post pics, is to string it up with light mandolin strings tune it to pitch carefully and see how it sounds, Might get some light Mandola strings and try it that way too.

[MikeEdgerton]

Paul, if I recall you were the one that told me about the book. It is eye opening for sure. Things that we took for granted for years were changed with the information that Hubert dug up. In the last two years things that I took for gospel for years about the Chicago builders have been changed by new information.

The other characteristic of the Kay mandolin necks are the awful dovetails. I've had several open (generally after they failed and they failed a lot). In almost every case you see a sloppy dovetail that they poured a ton of hide glue into hoping it would hold.

[Paul Hostetter]

It's quite amazing how much stuff he unearthed and organized and put together so well in that book. I've also enjoyed and learned a great deal from Michael Wright's columns in Vintage Guitar which cover a lot of the Chicago turf, as well as background on Schmidt and so on. I realize we're still left to do some speculation, but facts are nice, and we have more than ever before.

http://www.elderly.com/images/books/670/49-101176_front-cover.jpg

Somewhere, a horse has been led to water.

[MikeEdgerton]

The catalog pages and the patents in that book were eye openers for sure.

[wheels]

According to the 1953 Kay catalog, Kay made a electric mandolin model K-95 with a solid spruce top and laminated maole back and sides.

[wheels]

I just visited the Kay website as suggested by Jim Garber. There are catalogs from 1953 through 1987. According to the '53 catalog, Kay made a sold spruce top electric mandolin K-95. There were a number of spruce top mandolins made up until somewhere in the mid sixties. They made one model they called a concert mandolin model K-65 with the blonde top and mahogany laminated sides that was very similar to my mandolin. Somewhere around the late sixties or early seventies they dropped the K-65 and made the Mand-10 Curly Maple Mandolin, which was all laminated curly maple. It was slightly longer, wider and deeper. This appears to be what my instrument is. It is almost impossible to tell what year it was made as they never used serial numbers. The only difference was the earlier instruments had brass frets where the later madels starting somewhere in the late seventies/early eighties they started using nickle frets. I must say this has been an interesting forade. Thanks for all of your help from the forum.

[Paul Hostetter]

According to the '53 catalog, Kay made a sold spruce top electric mandolin K-95.

Look again, it did not say "solid spruce."

http://www.lutherie.net/Kay.K-95.mandolin.jpg

For some strange reason, people love to claim some of these things are solid wood, but in over forty years, I've never seen one, except for a smattering of instruments bought on contract from other shops around Chicago.