Old habits die hard

[Elliot Luber]

I have a very basic question on holding the pick.

My teacher showed me that I'm not holding the pick perfectly parallel to the strings, so I'm not getting optimal tone. Because I hold the mandolin neck at an angle (like most players) it comes across the strings angled.

When I line up the pick before I start I do get much better tone, but I'm having difficulty finding a comfortable position like this. I hold it the old way, then slightly roll the pick with my thumb to change its position ever so slightly. I have small hands and have difficulty controlling the pick when I do this.

Is this why players like Evan Marshall hold the mandolin neck straight out parallel to the ground -- to maintain the proper pick angle? Any input on this basic skill would be greatly appreciated. I guess old habits die hard.

[250sc]

I prefer the tone when I don't hold the pick parallel to the string. The edge of the pick that is farthest away from my palm is where my pick hits the string.

[AlanN]

It's a variable thing. Check out all the pickers you dig, chances are they do it all somewhat differently. Bobby Osborne tends to hold the neck straight out, with his forearm/wrist in straight line to the plane. His tone is bright and brittle (in a good way). Dawg, Sam get a more angled thing going.

I'm more like 250sc, but will straighten out at times, depending on what I'm going for.

[Elliot Luber]

You can see it in the Mike Compton video in the other thread on the general discussion, his thumb rides high -- so he's turned the pick slightly to hit the string square-on (whether or not he is conscious of it).

[fishtownmike]

I prefer the tone produced when the pick is parallel to the strings. This style just come natural to me. I don't like the tone produced when the pick is slightly angled like many do. This is just my preference and doesn't mean thats whats right to everyone else...Mike

[Elliot Luber]

My teacher would agree with you. I wish it came more naturally to me. I guess this is why you should start out with a good teacher, rather than learn about your mistakes later. I'm correcting the issue but it's tough.

[Ken_P]

It's funny, a while back I made a conscious effort to hold the pick so that it makes more of an angle to the strings. I feel like I lose a lot of control when it gets parallel because I have to drive so much more of the pick through the strings. With a nice angle, the pick glides through much more easily and is ready for the next stroke much more quickly. I also feel like I have more control over the tone because I can make minute changes in the exact angle to get a different sound if I want it.

[Elliot Luber]

I don't claim to know much as I'm asking the question, but it was Andy Statman who gave me the advice. I can hear the difference, it's just hard to get used to.

[Jason Kindall]

See the Reischman interview, too. He specifically mentioned the benefits (to him) of an angled attack. I tend to vary my attack depending on what kind of sound I want.

[fishtownmike]

I don't claim to know much as I'm asking the question, but it was Andy Statman who gave me the advice. I can hear the difference, it's just hard to get used to.
Well Andy is no slouch. He knows his stuff.

[Elliot Luber]

Neither is Reschman. So good players have different perspectives on this, I'm not setting these folks up against one another either as there's a lot of context involved in their various positions on their hand positions. It's just interesting to learn more about this. I was watching a few Evan Marshall videos today closely with this question in mind, but he's doing so many things at once that it's hard to generalize. I love when he switches from picking to a fast strum in his William Tell version that he completely changes his hand position... which gives credence to different angles for different musical objectives.

[Doug Hoople]

Neither is Reischman. So good players have different perspectives on this,

If you watch Mike Marshall's video, he specifically recommends holding the neck up at an angle. When you're holding your pick parallel to the floor, this angles the pick into the strings. I like this approach, and I like the sound it makes, so I've taken his advice. But I know there are plenty of other ways of doiing it.

One of the really cool things about going to the Mandolin Symposium is taking classes from great, but very different mandolin players. In one class, one of your heroes might say "ALWAYS do X." Then, in the very next class, another one of your heroes might say "Never do X." You couldn't argue with either of them, but if you took them both to heart, you'd have to stop playing the mandolin. :)

I'm particularly fond of Evan Marshall in this regard. Contradictions? You betcha! He's got one of the most pinched, awkward-looking pick grips, a grip that most other teachers will tell you is a deterrent to achieving speed.

Holy Cow! Can you imagine how fast Evan could play if only he corrected his faulty pick grip? :)

Not only that, but he teaches that grip to his students, and some of them are killer players.

I think you have to listen to them all. And, when there's someone in particular that gets that SOUND that makes you crazy, you need to look really hard and try to do what they're doing. For example, you know that when Mike Compton strokes the strings, he's doing something that no one else is doing. What's he doing?

Eventually, it will all fall out, and you'll find yourself picking your way, and that will be great.

[Shelagh Moore]

I tend to vary the angle of attack of the pick according to the sound I want from parallel to the strings to an angle, sometime "pushing" the angled bevel of the pick through the strings. It is very much a matter of preference and an individual thing... as has been noted already in this thread.

[Elliot Luber]

Thanks for your thoughtful comments Doug. I guess I'm now going into a whole body of experimenting until I come up with my own method. I teach management in my "spare" time, and I know when you learn something as a freshman in college, and then when you study the same topic in graduate school it's like an entirely new subject. Everything you thought was black and white is now grey. The trick is not in understanding black and white, but in discerning finer shades of grey. It gets really deep and complicated, but that's where you master the subject. So I guess seeing new questions where there were once simple answers is a sign of maturing on the mandolin. :-)

[Doug Hoople]

I teach management in my "spare" time, and I know when you learn something as a freshman in college, and then when you study the same topic in graduate school it's like an entirely new subject. Everything you thought was black and white is now grey. The trick is not in understanding black and white, but in discerning finer shades of grey.

If you teach management, Santiago, then you'll probably also be aware that the world can seem awfully complicated, especially if we know in advance that there are 13 variations on something that we should master when we're having trouble with just 1.

So sometimes, it makes sense, as a teacher, to say, "This is how I do it. This works for me. While you're studying with me, I'm going to ask you to do it this way."

Keeps things simple in the early going. Plenty of time later to revisit and get all subtle and stuff, no?

Also, +1 for going back to something you studied and thinking "Did I ever actually learn this?" It's amazing what a few years of perspective can bring.

[Lee Callicutt]

And there I was, thinking this was a thread about Bilbo Baggins . . . :mandosmiley:

[Ivan Kelsall]

Quote from ODT - "See the Reischman interview, too. He specifically mentioned the benefits (to him) of an angled attack" While not doubting your word or that of John Reischman,in nearly all the clips & pics.i've seen of him playing,his arm (wrist) is in line with the Mandolin neck/strings,so as to give him a non-angles attack.If he actually does angle the pick,then it must be with his finger & thumb,not the most comfortable way to hold a pick if you're constantly having to twist it around to give you a 'picking angle',
Ivan

xX-EPAEao5k

[Elliot Luber]

Actually, when I look at Reischman play here, he's holding his instrument fairly straight, and he's rolled the pick in his hand, so he seems to be playing straight on here. Look at the solo at 1:12.

[Rob Gerety]

My personal feeling about this is that my tone and speed are better if I use a very slight angle. I mean really slight. Not something you could see easily by watching my hand.

[Elliot Luber]

Great dog photo Rob. If I had my answer, I wouldn't have started the discussion.

[John Bertotti]

Interesting I find that I sometimes hold the neck straight and hit the strings with the flat of the pic other times, especially with tremolo I have the pick angled, same with lots of chords. I find I lose control of the pick with drawn out tremolo and lots of chording when I am square up to the strings but maintain better control with a bit of angle and neck up. I need to make it work better both ways as I think they both have a good sound just different.

[Jason Kindall]

Yep - Reischman's grip makes his pick angle backwards from a regular right hander, but it is still slightly angled. Of course, nobody's pick grip is always that consistent, is it?

[MadMarine]

I'm particularly fond of Evan Marshall in this regard. Contradictions? You betcha! He's got one of the most pinched, awkward-looking pick grips, a grip that most other teachers will tell you is a deterrent to achieving speed.

Holy Cow! Can you imagine how fast Evan could play if only he corrected his faulty pick grip? :)

Not only that, but he teaches that grip to his students, and some of them are killer players.



Doug:

I'm one of Evan's students. He acknowledges that the method he uses to hold the pick is unorthodox. He told me once how he came about using it, but I don't recall why. However, he has never suggested that I alter my more conventional holding of the pick (between thumb and first joint of the index finger). Perhaps it's because I'm old and changing my technique would'nt make a bit of difference. :grin:

Mad

[Doug Hoople]

Doug:

I'm one of Evan's students. He acknowledges that the method he uses to hold the pick is unorthodox. He told me once how he came about using it, but I don't recall why. However, he has never suggested that I alter my more conventional holding of the pick (between thumb and first joint of the index finger). Perhaps it's because I'm old and changing my technique would'nt make a bit of difference. :grin:

Mad

Hey Mad,

Thanks for chiming in!

I'll revise my statement: "Not only that, but he teaches that grip to SOME of his students, and some of them are killer players. "

I can tell, Mad, that you got the joke. But, for those who didn't, I should also make absolutely clear, since this is the Internet, and sly ironic chuckles often don't get through...

Evan is a fantastic player, one of the greats, IMHO. He is obviously not hampered in the least by his grip. He's one of the fastest players in the business, fast enough that, if anything were really wrong with that grip, he'd have suffered repetitive use injuries, and he hasn't. By definition, that means that there's nothing wrong with it.

Same goes for those of his students I've seen playing live... they also don't appear the least hampered by their grip.