Bill Monroe signed editions

[KitLarson]

Hi does anybody know where the limited Bill Monroe models were made? thanks dc:mandosmiley:

[doc holiday]

The Bill Monroe signed mandolins were Montana Gibsons....some lacquer, some varnish

[KitLarson]

Hi thanks some reason thought nashville or kalamazoo b weber and s carlson signed i suppose tnanks doc

[8ch(pl)]

Just out of curiosity,

When exactly did the Kalamazoo plant close?

[Big Joe]

The first plant in Nashville opened in 1975 and the last shop in Kalamazoo closed in 1986 if I remember correctly. All the Monroe models were made In Bozeman Montana at the Gibson factory there.

[KitLarson]

Hi also does anyone have any idea what was the top of the line for Flatiron F5 modelsn thanks dc:mandosmiley:

[Big Joe]

Flatiron Artist F5

[jim simpson]

Joe,
Didn't the Monroe model have the mortise and tennon (sp?) neck joint?
Jim

[AlanN]

To the top of the line Flatiron:

When I bought my F-5 Artist in 1985, the Mandolin Bros. catalog showed 2 above it: F-5 Master and F-5 Custom. Not sure what the incremental diffs were, maybe a block fingerboard, some other stuff. A guy around here had a Master, it was a bit fancier than the Artist.

[Big Joe]

Hey Jim.. Yes the Monroe signature models had the same mortise and tenon and bolt neck joints used on the entire Montana production. The bodies were carved the same as the other Montana made mandolins as well. Those were quite different from the graduations on the Loars or the MM series made in Nashville. They also used a different varnish and lacquer from what was used in Nashville as well.

They were good instruments, and the best that Gibson made in those days, but very different from what was made in Nashville after Charlie took over. This is not a slam against the Montana made instruments, just noting they are different. Personally I like the Nashville instruments, but I also liked the Monroe models.

[DannyB]

Big Joe, I'm on the other side of the fence on that one, I agree there are great sounding mandolins from both places but I love the sound from the Montana gibsons. Not to take anything away from the Nashville instruments and the one thing I hear from people is about the bolt on neck. I've had someone actually picking mine and saying I wouldn't own a bolt on neck while not knowing mine actually is. Point is if I didn't tell them they wouldn't know. By the way it needs new frets!!! LOL

Joe, is there a way to tell by just looking at the outside of the instrument? That's for my own curiosity.

I also should say that my favorite mandolins from the Nashville shop is the Sam Bush model..

[Big Joe]

Hey danny... it is pretty hard to tell what kind of neck joint is used on most mandolins from the outside, and sometimes from the inside. Occasionally you will not know until you try to take a neck out. Once the neck is in and the finish is complete the exterior does not give a lot of clues unless there is an issue such as the neck coming loose and showing the type of joing. That often even makes it hard.

On the Montana models you can often take out the end pin, get some light into the F holes, and see the bolt inside. That won't be visible on the non bolt models. However, just because it has no bolt does not mean it is not a mortise and tenon joint. It only means you can't see the bolt. On many of the Martin guitars with bolt necks they put a piece of wood over the bolts on the headblock and stamp the serial number and model on that. Most people don't even know there are bolts and mortise and tenon joints in those guitars.

Whether there is a bolt or not and whether it is a mortise and tenon joint or dowel joint or dovetail or the entire neck and headblock is one piece is not as important as many other factors. Yes, there will be a difference in some things but overall, a good well fit joint of any kind is better than a poorly fit joint of any other kind.

On some of the Montana made instruments the bolts can come loose and can be tightened carefully. Sometimes they will pull out when trying to tighten so it must be done very carefully. Just like anything else, some necks will need to be reset no matter the kind. Even those with a solid neck and headblock can need repair also.

If everyone liked the same thing there would only need to be one builder and only one music. Fortunately, there is a much wider spectrum than just that. I was a die hard dovetail neck joint nut until a few years ago. It is still my preference and personally I believe it is a better joint overall. I understand it is not as labor effective in manufacturing but I am old and set in my ways :) . Then I got hold of a guitar that really grabbed me. It sounded incredible, played incredible, and was very solid. It was loud and expressive, just everything one could want from a guitar. When I began studying that instrument I discovered it was built with a bolt on neck. I began to investigate that and see what some different builders were doing. I finally had to draw the conclusion that a bolt neck joint can be a good joint. I still don't think it is as good as a dovetail, but that does not mean it is inferior, just different. That revelation caused me to rething the issue when it comes to mandolins. While I still prefer a dovetail personally, I cannot condemn anyone for a good mortise and tenon or a bolt or whatever neck joint they chose.

There is a bit of difference in how easy they are to reset or work on, but that is not a tone or volume by itself. The important thing is that the joint is tight and well fit. In addition there needs to be enough neck angle and other than that it really does not matter much. It is the sum of the parts that gives the whole. The Monatana made instruments were good instruments and still are. Some of them have needed work,but what instrument hasn't? Any mandolin if you own it long enough is going to need work. The important thing is that you like the instrument you own and that is sounds and plays like you want it to. If it doesn't, then either get it fixed or get a different one.

[f5loar]

Any mandolin can need a neck reset. I can think of several signed Loar F5s that had neck resets so price does not exempt you from getting a neck reset if it needs one.
If a prewar Martin guitar has not had a reset then there is something wrong with it!
I know of many Monroe models that are just fine mandolins in looks, sound and the way they play.

[KitLarson]

Hi on a note I thank you all for the info I did look in the Flatiron at the end pin and yes I saw two holes that looked like some kind of bolt in the end block.dc:mandosmiley:

[kudzugypsy]

i was just starting to play mandolin when those Monroe models came out and i can still remember visiting Hoffman Music in Raleigh, NC and drooling at the #49(?) that they had in a glass case - it was BEAUTIFUL, and $5500! which i thought more than i'd ever pay for a mando...wrong

i have seen many of the varnish version with finish problems though. actually, nearly every varnish one i've seen (4-5) had factory finish issues - remember, Gibson hadnt made a varnish mando since 1924.

[Big Joe]

They used a spirit varnish on these rather than the oil varnish like the Loars or the Nashville varnished instruments. It is quite different in it characteristics and tone from the oil/ french used in earlier and later times. Still, a good mandolin. Of course, a Gilchrist sold for the whopping price of $3500.00 when the Monroe models came out. Both have appreciated in value, just not equally. However, both were good investments.

[Joe Mendel]

"If everyone liked the same thing there would only need to be one builder and only one music."

I once heard Dan Crary comment that "the reason they make different guitars is so we can stay up all night talking guitar trash."

I suspect the same thing applies to mandolins.

[KitLarson]

Hi you knowI have only owned a few mandolins most made overseas my Gibson is good and a Flatiron is even better,you know my friend Barry who grew up and played with Lenny Breau had a Givens A style and man that was the best Mandolin I ever played and said you ever sell its mine. dc:mandosmiley:

[f5loar]

"Gibson hadn't made a varnish mando since 1924. "
Well not really. Starting again in 1970 when Gibson totally redesigned the F5 they went back to "a" varnish finish. Sad but true. Not sure what type but it was a varnish finish vs. the heavy lacquer used in the 50's and 60's. Unfortunatly that move back to varnish did not capture the lost Loar sound and quality.
They stopped again in 1978 with the introduction of the
F5L.