View Full Version : A late '24 snakehead
Here's a nice black snakehead. It has a lacquer shine on top of the finish as some of these late ones and early '25s got, as well as quite an interesting back- you can see it has vertical brush marks in finish. This looks to have been done on the stain layer, and reminds me very much of some of the woodwork in my parent's old farmhouse. Stain was worked with a comb-like tool over a plainer pine was given more dramatic faux grain. I've seen a few others like this and do wonder if that was the intention.
It's #79653 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/79653). Sounds very nice too I should add, very punchy and midrangey with lonnnggg sustain
Dan you've played so many of these old Gibsons have you found many preLoar era instruments that sound as good or better?
Hank, it probably really depends what you like! My 1909 F4 is in my top 5 favorite instruments I've ever played anywhere.. for quite a bit of stuff I'd use that one in favor of a Loar even. The snakeheads get a lot of press because they can have great crispy midrange + volume that sound great in a number of musical contexts. The older F4s, especially from 1908-1912 is possibly the period I'd generalize on as being pretty likely to be wonderful. They tend to have a slower attack, more mellow/beefy tone, and sound better solo as they fill up so much of the musical spectrum compared to the more laser-like snakeheads and F5s.
I also am quite fond of the A models from 1925-30s, they get a lot of punch and generally hardly cost more than a pre-loar. Truss rodded paddleheads, both before and after Loar ranges are usually pretty good.
F2s with maple backs have a nice sound too- like the one Scott recently linked or Banana has in his inventory at the moment, generally those are cannons. F2s from the teens- I've played a couple that were super-sweet sounding, not quite enough to tell me they tie to a batch or year to hunt 'em down, the fun is you really gotta try 'em all
There are all kinds of great A models out there too from any period really, they occur at seeming random intervals and without too much correspondence to year or model.
One more thing- Ken pointed out to me in our last chat just how much of a difference playing them makes. An instrument that was played a lot almost always sounds better than a pristine one that shows no signs of having been used. The more you play your own mandolin the better it sounds. I always reserve judgement on them until I've at least put a couple solid hours on it, wherever possible!
Thanks Dan. Some of us are pretty isolated with very little comparisons available. We are fortunate to have experience like yours given so openly.
I'm really happy with my new to me 1915 Blackface A4, Boo aka Boo Cou. This Black Lady with her fancy Handel jewelry has really opened up with EXP75's and a lot of some pretty heavy handed play. I plan to back off to LSB 250 after I get through roughing her up. I guess shaking her up with this heavy wire sounds scary to most but she really has responded well to the massage. I think I worry more about dry air than the 75's. Anyway so far so good, I'm keeping a close eye for any support debonding etc. but she really seems to like the heavy wire for now.
mandotool
Jan-24-2010, 12:15pm
Dan, Thanks for the post...
I would expect to see some variation during the transition from varnish to Lacquer but this is a bit over the top..
Just to be clear, you are suggesting that this faux wood grain is original factory finish, or done at the factory when returned for repair?
And if so, are there other examples of faux finish experimentation at Gibson from this period?
Thanks again for your work on the Archive...
Yes, I don't have a database tag for that finish effect but I have definitely seen it before..
Also, we've seen some July 9 Loars with a lacquer topcoat too, it was an experiment perhaps, and made standard by 1925. I reckon this snake was one of the earlier ones to get it too..
Rob Gerety
Jan-24-2010, 7:43pm
Lovely mandolin. I am new to this Gibson oval thing. I bought a 1916 A4 recently. I love it. I do think that the more and harder I play it the better it gets. But when I pick up my old mandolin (a good quality pac rim f hole A style) I am soooo happy that I took the plunge with this A4.
woodwizard
Jan-24-2010, 8:12pm
That is really a nice nice looking snakehead. Like Hank I have a A4 (1919) and very happy with it but those snakeheads just look so cool!
JeffD
Jan-24-2010, 10:14pm
An instrument that was played a lot almost always sounds better than a pristine one that shows no signs of having been used. The more you play your own mandolin the better it sounds. I always reserve judgement on them until I've at least put a couple solid hours on it, wherever possible!
What a fantastic problem, where the answer to the problem is to play the instrument more. :grin:
I wish other problems could be solved that way - just play the mandolin more often and things will be all right. :crying:
Goodin
Jan-26-2010, 11:44am
That's a nice mandolin Dan. I assume that's the silkscreen logo typical of the period? This looks just like the '25 A-1 snake I used to have except mine was varnish. It was more weighted to the bass side and very punchy. When do you think they went to all laquer?
That's a nice mandolin Dan. I assume that's the silkscreen logo typical of the period? This looks just like the '25 A-1 snake I used to have except mine was varnish. It was more weighted to the bass side and very punchy. When do you think they went to all laquer?
Yes, that's a silkscreen logo indeed. It could have been back at the factory, though it's hard to know without any other documentation!
So far from what we have records of, they put topcoats on some of the July 9 loars for sure. Lacquer then shows up scattered by 79xxx and seems to be everywhere by 82xxx. Remember it's not all 100% sequential, but the FON/batch numbers are good ways to tell when it was *started*.
They might not have finished a batch of bodies made in '24 until '28 if demand for that model was low. Something they sold a lot of (a models) moved fairly steadily, while things they didn't sell many of (F5/H4/H5/K1/2/4/5 etc) might linger on the shelf a couple more years until an order came through. Perhaps a few from a batch could have been started in '24 but finished and shipped in '27
Goodin
Jan-26-2010, 12:36pm
Wow, that's confusing!
Hey Dan, I've got a '24 serial number 77161. The script on mine is at a slant on the peghead where yours is pretty even. Otherwise they appear identical. I love the sound of mine. Plays real nice as well.
Wow, that's confusing!
I try :)
Hey Dan, I've got a '24 serial number 77161. The script on mine is at a slant on the peghead where yours is pretty even. Otherwise they appear identical. I love the sound of mine. Plays real nice as well.
Thanks, I'll add that number to my archive list. Not sure the source of my horizontal logo- could well indicate it visited gibson a year or two later for some work. That also might be the source of the lacquer topcoat. Hard to tell, but maybe a couple more with near serial numbers will help me establish the pattern or show that mine falls outside of it
I just looked up the archive and you have one within six numbers of my serial number, with the same slanted script. I'll try to e-mail some pics tomorrow. Mine appears to be all original as far as bridge and pickguard.
Paul Statman
Jan-31-2010, 6:53pm
An instrument that was played a lot almost always sounds better than a pristine one that shows no signs of having been used. The more you play your own mandolin the better it sounds. I always reserve judgement on them until I've at least put a couple solid hours on it, wherever possible!
Well sed, lad
(a close relative of, "Wise words well put, sir")..
I don't mean to be rebellious about this but I think no matter how much you spank your monkey a little waking up will never transform a lump of coal into a diamond.
I don't mean to be rebellious about this but I think no matter how much you spank your monkey a little waking up will never transform a lump of coal into a diamond.
Agreed, but usually you can't really know which it is until you put in the time..
After more thinking about it, I'm pretty sure that this one went back to gibson to get the silkscreen logo, and probably the lacquer buff! Even though it's late '24, it's probably a little too early for those other details.
I'll try to grab a sound clip of it, it's got very nice laser-like tone.
Dan you have played so many mandolins old and new that your perception is much more honed in on particular qualities and nuances that are desirable for that particular design. Your experience and scope of knowledge(not to mention your amazing talent as a musician)makes you an authority in judgement of a wide array of instruments even specific to era eccentricities and practices. You listen for qualities that I would neither recognize or be able to utilize in performance. For these reasons I understand and am in complete agreement about reserving judgement on an instrument until it has been thoroughly played in. My point is that for many of us judgement is based more on a comparison of a much smaller number of lower priced instruments. When given an opportunity to sample a mandolin I know almost immediately if I like it enough to either play it for another half hour or inquire about the possibility of playing it again after a setup problem has been addressed. Even with my very limited experience I've been amazed at how much a 1/2 hours play can improve the tone and response of some instruments but at the same time I had to like it enough to play it that long.
Inadequate monkey-spanking time aside (I'm guessing you were going for the double or perhaps triple-entendre there!).. I brought that up because this particular one didn't quite grab me at first, then a little set-up work and some play time and now suddenly I really like it.
Dread right on your point regarding set-up.. that's a huge importance. A little buzzing, you won't hit it hard enough to hear the thing sing, perhaps. Maybe the action is too high, or the bridge isn't true, and you think what you're hearing that is wrong is just the setup.
It's practically my hobby to show up somewhere like Gruhn's and try every Gibson they have until I'm kicked out or offered a coffee :-)
:)):)) All with a smile. Joking aside I'm really enjoying this thread and the others like it you so generously share with us. Your tireless work archiving these wonderful old mandolins is priceless. Thanks for the heads up on culling one too quickly.