Wiens Mandolins Dirty Laundry

[MandoCowboy]

Wiens Mandolins has some serious issues as this website declares

http://www.custominstrumentwatchdog.com/

Jamie Wiens labled as a "Poster Child" for being unscrupulous.

Check it out.

[R. Kane]

It would be nice for the builder to have a chance to respond here if he chooses to, before this thread gets locked down. I've certainly been on the unhappy side of architectural and construction engagements; and public leverage like this would have been helpful. Let's hope that the parties get everything worked out to mutual satisfaction, and outstanding mandolins and smiles result.

[Chris Biorkman]

Wow. That sucks. This thread is going to get locked.

[Scott Tichenor]

This violates board posting guidelines. While we're fully aware of issues some of his customers have expressed, we do not take sides in these matters.

Specifically:

- Using the board to malign or leverage personal advantage in a conflict is strictly forbidden. Though intent or motivation are not always provable, the moderators reserve full right in deeming whether or not comments made are consistent with policy, and may take action to edit, delete, or when necessary, revoke posting privileges.

[Scott Tichenor]

I'm making a difficult decision to re-open this discussion and to allow it to continue because additional issues have recently come to my attention. I'd like to say this is the first time I've seen reference to this subject matter, but it isn't, and I think it's time everyone had their say.

Understand why it's rare that we will allow this to move forward. It's against board policy to leverage the forum for disputes against others. We are often asked for permission to "vent" in the forum when it's clear the best solution is direct and private communication between parties to resolve problems. Unfortunately, I do not see that as a solution here. Do not mistake this as a change in our guidelines, only a situation that requires a response clearly out of the ordinary.

The builder in question was notified of this action in advance and is welcome to respond. Or not. I have not made attempts to contact other parties involved.

I've notified Ted Eschliman, our lead moderator, and asked he instruct the other moderators to monitor this discussion, as will I. We will vigorously enforce existing guidelines and ask that everyone stick to the facts and that they do so with the knowledge that we will not tolerate inappropriate and unacceptable comments.

[AlanN]

Goodness, what a messy mess.

Many years ago, this builder said he would build me a copy of my old F-5, if I would send that old F-5 to him. I didn't.

[fred d]

:cool: Time for some old fashion justice like the 40th break his hands :whistling:

[Jim MacDaniel]

:popcorn:

[Larry S Sherman]

I hope that whatever has happened will be resolved. He makes some amazing instruments. Dan B's F-5 is a beauty. I've always hoped to get a Weins someday.

[mandroid]

Maybe he got too much "is it done yet" ?? too often. :mad:

a big car full of big Kids .. "are we There Yet"?? :confused:

:redface:Over sold his waiting list.

[Mike Bunting]

Maybe he got too much "is it done yet" ?? too often. :mad:

a big car full of big Kids .. "are we There Yet"?? :confused:

:redface:Over sold his waiting list.

No, that's not it. I'm from western Canada and though I haven't commented (and won't again) I have heard enough over the years to say that this is not unexpected.

[JGWoods]

I've got no dog in this fight. I just wonder sometimes why some builders don't just stop taking orders, build what they want to and put it up for sale.
I think once a guy has a 2 year plus waiting list he's got a problem, maybe even 1 year is too long.

If a person is a dedicated artist/builder it seems to me that a long list of waiting customers is a guaranteed headache. Better to build first, find the customer later.

[kirksdad]

Scott/Ted;

Thanks for letting this post stay. You may have helped the situation greatly. There have been a few threads here in the past six months talking about some of the builders practices, both good and bad, this builder was the subject of one of them. I'm very interested to hear Jaime's side of the story.

I truly understand that the builder deserves wide leeway, on their methods and build time frames, they are doing something the vast majority of us cannot do. This appears to be very much wrong.

There was a member who received a Wiens mandolin in this time frame....he posted pictures and talked about the experience, I wonder how his experience effects Walt and Jim's build ..........

[pickinNgrinnin]

I think it's a good thing you've decided to let this thread continue. Public pressure can often lead to good results. I consider this a public service to the Mandolin community. I'm not sure Jamie can explain his way out of this one. If he winds up losing his business/reputation as a result of his questionable practices, he has brought it upon himself. You reap what you sow.

[Chris Biorkman]

I think the circumstances, in this instance, merit further discussion of the topic, so I commend Scott for letting the conversation continue. I think it's necessary to prevent others from getting duped. A little over a year ago, I emailed Jamie to ask about his wait time and was told that it was two years, which it appears was not anywhere near the truth even back then. The builder may fancy himself an artist, but when you are taking people's money and making promises, like it or not, you are engaging in business and it is perfectly reasonable to expect a customer to hold you to account for the promises that you have made.

There is no doubt that Jamie is very talented, but if the facts stated on the link in the OP are true, he deserves every bit of the bad press that he is getting and more. It really surprises me that someone would be so unscrupulous considering how small the mandolin community is and how easily stories can spread via the internet. Hopefully he will chime in, but to me, there isn't much he could say to justify what he has supposedly done. Why deal with people like that when there are builders like Tom Ellis and Will Kimble out there who will build an instrument that is every bit as good and be courteous and straightforward about the process as well?

[Elliot Luber]

if the facts stated on the link in the OP are true, he deserves every bit of the bad press

That's the issue. How do you judge a few anonymous quotes?

If someone comes on this board and says they have a problem, then we can discuss it. But when some guy posts some anonymous allegations somewhere else, it's hard to say what the facts are.

Myself, I get annoyed at people who send me emails sometime and my response to one person may not be representative of how I treat the greater public. What's the context?

[Chris Biorkman]

I think it's highly suspicious that the builder hasn't responded to any of these allegations in previous threads, including one that he himself started. He undoubtedly knows that these stories are circulating. If it were me, and my integrity was falsely being called into question, I would vociferously defend myself. To me, his silence says something.

[jasona]

I think the disgruntled customers on the other web site should stop complaining online and start exercising their legal recourse if that is how they feel.

Otherwise, ditto Mike Bunting's post.

[Glassweb]

This sort of thing is a damn shame. It's obvious Jamie is an exceptionally talented luthier; however, very often great and eccentric talents are the absolute worst people to represent themselves. Perhaps he should consider having a rep (as many top builders have done/are doing). If his mandolins are as good as they appear to be, they'll get sold either way.

[Elliot Luber]

Perhaps that's wise advise. If he wants to be an artist and distance himself from the interpersonal business aspects, why not hand it off to someone.

[Chris Biorkman]

Perhaps that's wise advise. If he wants to be an artist and distance himself from the interpersonal business aspects, why not hand it off to someone.

Because he gets to take deposits this way perhaps.

[G. Fisher]

He has been removed from the builders list.

[Ivan Kelsall]

This is just bad news all round !. Bad for the builder himself & bad for his potential customers. IMHO,i think he needs to take a couple of steps back from this situation & re-consider his public stance as a builder who has (had) a great reputation. Personally,i sincerely hope that a man of such talent can re-assess his situation & get back on course,even if it means having to eat one or more pieces of 'humble pie'. It's been done many times before,usually by politicians,who seem to be unusually adept at shooting themselves in the foot. Ivan:confused:

[J. Wiens]

Hello everyone...After quite a little run of this ongoing melodrama, I feel that I should finally address it personally to assure those of you who may not see my silence on the matter as a form of grace or forgiveness, but perhaps as some confirmation of the accusations being made against me by a certain individual on this board . Before I do though, I'd like to first apologize to all of you who've had to put up with the seemingly never-ending threads regarding me & my “bad business dealings”. There's so many more interesting things to read about here on the mandolincafe than the soap opera of “which guy doesn't have their mandolin yet and why?” Having a client of mine go sideways on me and drag my name out in public is embarrassing enough, but I hate that it's taken away from your otherwise positive learning and social experience here on the cafe. So for that, I'm sorry.

Hopefully most of you can see what's happened here. In a nutshell, I'm late in completing an instrument for a client and he's upset.

It's not the first time I've been late with an instrument order, and to be perfectly honest, I've been late with just about every custom instrument I've ever built for anyone. I'm famous for it.....I'm not particularly proud of that, but at the same time I know that this trait is nothing new in the world of creative endeavor...It is, whether you or I like it or not, the nature of the beast. As long as there's been passionate craftsmen making object d 'art with the best of intentions, there's been people getting upset because the thing wasn't done when it was supposed to be. In my time making instruments, I've seen all kinds of behaviors from all kinds of people who are anxious about their instrument not being completed on time. From family members, to my best friends, to people I've never met or spoken to..There's a few basic behaviors. There's subtle hostility of all kinds, frustrated crazy emails, withholding of funds, some cancel their orders, some offer legal threats....Heck I've even had a letter from a client's psychiatrist one time! So As someone who's been down this road many times, I think I have enough understanding of these behaviors that I can, and do try to help my clients through these feelings whenever they surface.

However having said all that, I don't think I need to point out that the particular client in question is behaving in an extreme and unscrupulous manner beyond anything that is reasonable.


I'm generally a pretty firm believer in “Don't complain & never explain”, So I wouldn't normally get into all the minutiae of my dealings with anyone in public. However in my own defense, because of the accusatory things that are being said by this person, I will give you all the broad strokes.
Suffice it to say that an instrument was ordered in 2007 with a projected completion date of spring 2009. Unfortunately I had a really unexpected rough spot in my personal life in 2008 which I am only now recovering from ...It definitely slowed me down. I explained to this person in late 2008 that due to that rough spot, that things were going slower than hoped,..I received nothing but encouragement and support from him . However by Spring 2009 that encouragement had somehow slowly turned into hostility. After a half dozen hostile & threatening emails over several weeks that spring, and a refusal to call me to sort it out, I finally phoned him, hoping we could resolve the issue. Despite an hour spent on the phone trying to talk things through...It was clear that there would be no reasoning with him. He cancelled his order the following day. Another long phone call ensued.....I explained that I didn't have the money to refund him immediately and that it'd take some time to find the right client to take his place. He agreed to give me 3 weeks to come up with the money and spelled out to me that after that, his pride wouldn't allow this kind of sleight and that there would be consequences.

That brings us up to now... To my knowledge thus far he has A; sent out a sinister-sounding mass email to many of my family, friends and clients. B: posted ads here in the cafe classifieds to sell “his build slot” which I explicitly forbid him to do over the phone C: Started smear threads ..one of which you are now reading..Which of course serve to scare my present and future clientele and make life and income difficult for me. And now last but not by any means least, D: he seems to have has created an actual website under the guise of a legitimate "custom instrument watchdog" in which he attempts to paint some picture of me as a fraud artist.....Heh! Who said this work isn't glamorous?


What am I doing about it? For starters I've announced on my website that as of June 2009 that I will no longer accepting orders for instruments from anyone. This ensures I wont' be in this situation again after I'm through my present order list.

Wiens instruments will simply be available as they are completed and you may put your name on a waiting list for a small fee. I arrived at this decision, not just because of the individual who is presently rocking the boat. ..though he helped make it an easy one....but also because of other negative interactions with people in the past. You see, I'm really not interested in upsetting people...I only want to make instruments and get better at making them every day, and after enough time spent building these instruments one thing I know, is that I can never know. Meaning that I've learned that no matter how long or how ofter I've done this work, that there will always be something that will go sideways or badly or otherwise surprise me....Something will always take twice or five times as long as you think...something will always have to be redone or thrown out..Without fail.

So rather than continue to cross my fingers and hope that I can meet an optimistic deadline I've made, and then torturing my clients with uncertainty after that deadline passes for whatever reason. I think a much better idea is to not involve other people in my creative process at all. To make my business not about custom instruments for certain individuals..After all ..these things usually get traded or sold to other people eventually. So I plan to simply make instruments and allow those who wish to, acquire the work when it is complete. This way we're all happy and can continue on our merry way in life.

What about this individuals instrument order and his money? As of Jan 18th, I have made arrangements for the sale of his instrument when it is completed ( FYI It requires a fretboard and inlay and then it's on to finishing ) There's been no money exchanged with the new buyer at my request, and at the time of sale, the client in question will receive a refund once he's signed a release of contract . Since the instrument is spoken for now, I'd like to request that the webmaster here on the cafe not allow any more ads for the “Wiens build slot” from this person.

That's about it. I'd like to thank those of you who have been supportive through this time despite the hoopla. Anyone who has any questions about what I've said here please feel free to call or email me.

Sincerely

Jamie Wiens

[goldtopper]

In any other business, this builder would have to hide from customers kicking 5k out of his butt.
"Artist" for too long has been used as an excuse to be difficult, elite and not subject to conventional rules of trade.
Got problems? Fine, be honest and return the money, otherwise shut up and put your nose to the grindstone.

[Stephen Perry]

I'll simply point out that the messy situations in the music biz I've been involved in as an advisor have all except one been resolved very quickly through increasingly formal communications. My general approach for the usual contract problems either for myself or others has been:

1. Phone call
2. Letter
3. Letter from attorney, certified
4. File suit

I've gotten to step 4 on behalf of clients, but never a trial. This simple process keeps the drama out of it.

In instances of intentional misbehavior (embezzlement or the like), a different approach might prove more effective

From both sides, a willingness to negotiate needs to be present, and a parity in communications. Letter should be matched with letter, formal proposal should be matched with written comments and suggestions or a counter. Certainly when negotiations start with screaming or formal communications are met with threats or obscure demands the party making polite efforts may be driven away from negotiations. I have observed that, too, a situation that benefits nobody.

I'm reminded why I don't take commissions, and don't even like special orders from my suppliers!

In no instance have I seen pleading to others in fora, skating up to the edge of defamation or the like, threats, or other bad behavior do much except make rational discussions difficult.

[Rob Gerety]

Many problems can be avoided by having a clear deal in writing from the get go. Since delays are so common they should be anticipated. The original deal should address the consequences in the event of delay.

This sort of thing is one reason why I will never order another custom build instrument.

[AlanN]

It so depends on the builder. I have dealt with 2 craftsmen, the first had a few glitches, mostly in terms of how long it took to get the mandolin, but nothing like the above. The 2nd builder I dealt with came through swimmingly - on time, on spec and perfect in every way.

[Scotti Adams]

When I try to access the above website by the Op I get this...I have Verizon Internet Security Suite

Suspected Fraudulent Web Site Detected by the Verizon Internet Security Suite Fraud Protection Verizon Internet Security Warning:
Suspected Fraudulent Web Site Detected

You are attempting to connect to a reported fraudulent web site

URL: http://www.custominstrumentwatchdog.com/

Do not submit personal information to this web site. We recommend that you delete any emails associated with this URL.

Report a false positive


For more information please visit the Fraud Protection site.







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To view this web page, type your security services password in the field below, and then click Continue to web site. NOTE: Some sites use malicious code to install malware on your computer and can steal personal information such as bank account numbers and passwords. For this reason we strongly recommend that you not display the fraudulent site.

Security Services Password:

[Scotti Adams]

Got to see the site. If these quotes are true...well never mind...you dont want to know what I think.

Damn shame

[Bertram Henze]

It has been my understanding that a good relationship between builder and player is a core component of what custom building is all about. Why anyone should pay money for an instrument that will remember him of a terror time forever is unclear to me.

Therefore, it should be top priority for both not to let any kind of tension even begin, i.E. form a clear picture of deadlines and agree what to do in case of problems before the event.
In this particular case, the builder should plan buffer times for those unforeseen delays (never hurts to finish early) and buffer budget for customers pulling out. The customer, on the other hand, has clearly gone outside what is needed to settle the case, apparently not interested in staying in the frame of mind that he must have aimed for when placing the order. If luthiers have a customer blacklist, that'd make an entry.

[kirksdad]

It has been my understanding that a good relationship between builder and player is a core component of what custom building is all about. Why anyone should pay money for an instrument that will remember him of a terror time forever is unclear to me.

Therefore, it should be top priority for both not to let any kind of tension even begin, i.E. form a clear picture of deadlines and agree what to do in case of problems before the event.
In this particular case, the builder should plan buffer times for those unforeseen delays (never hurts to finish early) and buffer budget for customers pulling out. The customer, on the other hand, has clearly gone outside what is needed to settle the case, apparently not interested in staying in the frame of mind that he must have aimed for when placing the order. If luthiers have a customer blacklist, that'd make an entry.

Betram;

Have to disagree with you there.

I think the customer (In fact it looks like a few of them) did everything reasonable in trying to rectify the situation. I think this site has a few occassions allowed these situations (Danny Spurgeon being a fine example, Gail Hester another) where it seemed in the best interest of the community to air this out. I read all that I needed in Jaime's reply to know, there is no way I would ever do business with him. If evasion is the way to explain your business practices, then the fallout serves you right.......

KD

[Barb Friedland]

It's good to hear from Jamie about all this and I think he's making the right change in his business practices but this situation is unfortunate and should never have happened. It's sad because I have heard very good comments about his instruments. Even artists (and I used to be one but stopped because of not wanting to create on a deadline, sound familiar?) have to be able to conduct business properly. Regardless of the circumstances, a person in business has to treat clients respectfully, even when the going gets tough. Problems need to be resolved with the idea that client satisfaction is the number one priority. Anyone who cannot accept that should not be in business at all.

I'm choosing to ignore the actual quotes attributed to Jamie on the website mentioned by the OP as they are so extreme that I have trouble being willing to buy them, especially when taken out of context. But clearly something went wrong with this instrument order and apparently, it isn't the first time.

The bottom line for me is that a luthier is a business person as much as an artist/crafts-person and must be willing to conduct themselves accordingly. At this point I hope that Jamie can reflect on proper business practices, turn things around, and rebuild his reputation.

My thought is that we can all learn from this. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater- a custom built instrument can be a joy. If I ever get there, I will not work with anyone without a clear signed contract.

[MikeEdgerton]

When I try to access the above website by the Op I get this...

It's a false positive.

[nickster60]

This just my personal opinion.
If you only sell instruments you have already made ,you will make them in a little more timely fashion. Hunger can be a very powerful incentive.

[Kirk Albrecht]

I have for a couple years thought that a Wiens F-5 would be my dream mandolin, and Dan B's experience confirmed those ideas. They appear to be simply amazing instruments from the hands of a master craftsman.

This is a disturbing development, because of what it does not say --

1. Jamie in his reply never addresses the quoted emails from the "unscrupulous builders" website ... he never gives an explanation that deals with those statements presented as facts. From where I sit, that is merely obfuscation of reality.
2. Jamie does not address his contention of being "an artist, not a businessman". I highly doubt that any of the many fine craftspeople on the Cafe who produce wonderful instruments would ever use that rationale. They would merely stand by their work, apologize if delays occurred, and seek to do what was right.

The guitar world knows well the legendary stories of Wayne Henderson, and trying to get him to build you a guitar. Yet in spite of how long that takes for most folks (who willingly put up with it because of the amazing quality of his guitars), there is never a hint of any impropriety or shady dealings with Wayne, his integrity is above question.

I hope that Jamie will work hard to restore his reputation on this board and in the niche world of mandolin building, and strive to do the right thing, with transparent business practices, with every customer.

[Glassweb]

no easy answers or solutions in this case, but "gossip ain't the gospel" and there's certainly two sides to every story.
i applaud builders who choose to deal with clients directly and can pull it off, but if it were me, i'd much prefer concentrating on my craft than dealing with emails and phone calls all the time... no wonder nothing ever gets done on time...

[Bertram Henze]

Betram;

Have to disagree with you there.

I think the customer (In fact it looks like a few of them) did everything reasonable in trying to rectify the situation. I think this site has a few occassions allowed these situations (Danny Spurgeon being a fine example, Gail Hester another) where it seemed in the best interest of the community to air this out. I read all that I needed in Jaime's reply to know, there is no way I would ever do business with him. If evasion is the way to explain your business practices, then the fallout serves you right.......

KD

There are stories on that website telling what customers did. Supposing these stories are true, it's not the process described there I meant. I was talking about the fact that those stories are publicized on a website to destroy a man's reputation. That's what I don't consider an appropriate style. I am not taking sides here, both parties have made mistakes. Learning from them is better than spraying them on the wall.

[Ron McMillan]

A note of thanks to the Cafe for allowing this discussion to be aired. I personally never foresee being in a situation where I can afford a custom-built instrument, but if my situation changed so greatly that I was able to, I'd certainly look to places like Mandolin Cafe for recommendations.

I would always treat the word of a disgruntled customer with a certain amount of caution, but in this case Mr Wein has failed to say anything to cast real doubt on his unsatisfied clients' claims.

As someone who has been in the freelance photojournalism/journalism world for over twenty years, that worries me. If over the years I had made even two clients so angry as Mr Weins seems to have done, my name and reputation would have been deservedly dragged through the mud, and editors would have stopped calling me.

I know one builder I will not be contacting, even if my finances take a spectacular turn for the better. My thanks again to Mandolin Cafe for allowing this discussion to take place.

ron

[Earl Gamage]

Why is it acceptable for an order to be late by months or years? It seems to me the luthiers should give a realistic delivery date and meet it.

No sympathy to Wiens here.

[kirksdad]

Maybe so Bertram;

I think the fact this thread is still active is very telling. Sometimes, when all convention is exhausted, you must find another way..........

[doc holiday]

I'm glad that Scott has decided to let this discussion take place on the forum. Like Mike B I'm from western Canada and personally know a number of people involved here. There are many great mandolin & guitar makers who produce beautiful instruments and are capable and ethical in their business practices. I'd just like to add that not everyone who orders an instrument is a "collector," and many amateurs and working musicians who take a chance and order early work from a builder do so to get a good instrument at a modest price. For these folks, having thousands of dollars tied up for years, or having an instrument which has serious build issues, considerably affects their musical circumstances.

[brunello97]

Kudos to Ted for letting the conversation play out and the insistence on a civil tone to the conversation. (Any ideas of running for the Senate, Ted?) Same to all the cafe members who have responded thoughtfully. Not the model in today's culture of the screaming demagoguery from tv and radio commentators.

Clearly much of the story is not being told here and like many in the conversation I don't feel I have enough information to make an informed opinion about the facts , but something bridles inside me to hear Mr. Wiens cloak himself as an 'artist' to avoid certain basic responsibilities. This does a disservice to artists everywhere. We've all seen 'Pope' Rex Harrison mouth "When will you make an end?" to Michelangelo in 'The Agony and the Extacy". Okay, it is the Sistine Chapel, not exactly an artistic or business model for a mandolin maker, no matter his artisanship.

Make no mistake, Mr. Wiens, despite his claim, is NOT an artist---how is that for an inflammatory statement? If we confuse making mandolins with art--no matter their craft or quality, no matter their aesthetic appeal, no matter their desire-line and our obsession and appreciation of them--all of which I share--then we are making ourselves conceptual and rhetorical conundrum from the very start which only complicates communication and understanding. And which also demonstrates a basic misunderstanding of how art has functioned and continues to function in our society. Mr. Wiens may be considered an 'artist' in a metaphorical sense perhaps, as in 'clubhouse lawyer', 'armchair philosopher or quarterback' or 'architect of the bill before Congress.'

Somehow we have diminished the title of 'artisan' of its longstanding and critically important cultural meaning and with it some of its value. It should be restored to its value of esteem and merit in our culture. As we have moved away from a culture of making things to a culture of buying/consuming things I believe we have lost track of this and then to confuse our language and our meaning. To call oneself an artist rather than an artisan seems like a self imposed entitlement (as if their should be any real need for such.) To call one an 'artist' as a means of compliment or praise should be taken as such and not lead to self (or group) delusion.

Forgive me if this sounds like the pedantic ramblings of a college professor, but I am a college professor, so any condemnation as such would be right on target. Mr. Wiens 'sincere' mea culpa was not a good way to begin my morning. Muy sketchioso, as my spanglo-phonic vatos might say.

Mick

[Bertram Henze]

To call oneself an artist rather than an artisan seems like a self imposed entitlement

Draft definition: an artist fulfills his own dreams, an artisan fulfills his customers' dreams.

Self-imposed entitlement may backfire.

[250sc]

J. Wiens wrote "I'm generally a pretty firm believer in “Don't complain & never explain”

That pretty much shows the attitude of the builder in question and should become part of his logo so people are forewarned.

Let's all try this when the utility bills come in. Sorry, I can't pay. I'm an artist.

It's a good thing he'll stop giving a time frame for his instruments completion.

[Scotti Adams]

Hey..anybody notice the Dude for sale in the classifieds? :grin:

[deepmountain]

I’m Jim on the link from the o.p. of this thread. After seeing Jamie’s post I must add my 2 cents. It’s clear that this guy just doesn’t get it and is unapologetic. Here’s the facts of my situation: I placed an order in ’04 paying a $1500 deposit. Another time I sent more $ at his request because he said he needed a down payment on a house. In all, he had $5000 of my money for over 4 years. In the original contract for the order, dated April 30, 2004 the delivery date was Oct. 2005. I never expected the delivery date was hard and fast. I never “bothered” Jamie at all and tried to maintain and engender good relations with him over the years and as the months went by beyond the delivery date.

Finally in March 2006 I asked if he could give me a new ETA. I think it’s reasonable when someone is well beyond the due date to expect to be given an estimate of when one might see delivery. At this point the insults and abuse, name-calling began, which I didn’t deserve and I felt he had me “over a barrel”. I contacted a local attorney and was made to realize how expensive and difficult it would be to take legal action against him in Canada. In the end, in May of 2007, I emailed him to cancel the order and asked for my money back. He’d had my $5000 for over 4 years and eventually he returned all but $450, keeping that amount as a cancellation fee, even though he had broken the terms of the contract and hadn’t done anything special towards building the mandolin.

For any of you who have ordered a custom instrument and went through the “long wait” you might sympathize with a 2 year wait stretching out to over 4 and in the end coming up empty. Jamie just won’t face reality and I’m sorry for him about that. Also after the way I was treated by him I decided that I wouldn’t want to play the music, which is so important to me, on a mandolin associated with so much negativity, no matter how great his instruments may be.

At the time this was all happening I sent all the documentation of the emails and a copy of the original contract to Scott T. when I started a thread titled “What do you think about this?” without naming the builder to tell my story and get feedback from the MC community about the experience of others' dealings with builders. At that time people wanted to know the name of the builder but I wouldn’t give it up. But I did send the info to Scott.

[nickster60]

It has been my experience that many high skilled craftsmen aren't necessarily the best businessmen. I own two businesses and it is difficult to be good at every aspect of running a business. Many of these guys are just stretched to thin and the stress levels can get pretty high. If you have never owned a business most people don't have any idea how much you really have to do. It isn't a 8am-5pm job it is more like 6am-9pm and you still didn't get to everything. You never get a sick day, you don't vacation pay, you pay for your own insurance(to many to list) and work to many hours. And sometimes you get a customer that really isn't worth having.

Mr Wiens sometimes it is just better to give them back there money and send them down the road. You cant be all things to all people. Sometimes you cant meet a customers expectations and it better to set them free than go through this. In the long run it isn't as painful.

[Bertram Henze]

Also after the way I was treated by him I decided that I wouldn’t want to play the music, which is so important to me, on a mandolin associated with so much negativity, no matter how great his instruments may be.

That is the really tragic part of the story. I think you did the right thing. Teaches us that a genius is not safe from Dunning-Kruger...

I hope you can play again and drive away the memories.

[Grassman]

Well, thanks to the mods for letting this air. Not that I have the money, but if I did I now know who I would NOT be ordering a mandolin from or doing business with in any way. I think Weins actions and business practices are obsurd.

[G. Fisher]

I don't question the validity of the quotes posted attributed Jamie. The reason being. What do they stand to gain? They are ether out money or a mandolin they had waiting many years for.

Just my opinion.

[yankees1]

The days of a "handshake" or a modern " e-mail" to consummate a business deal has been over many years ago. Most transactions should include a written and signed contract that spells out everything about the transaction which legally could protect buyer and seller and prevent mis-understandings ! That being said, I just ordered an oval A from Bill Bussman:mandosmiley: and not worried at all as I am confident his word is as good as the old fashioned handshake!

[grassrootphilosopher]

Whatever the situation may be I´d like to express the following:

1. The website in the original (1st) post http://www.custominstrumentwatchdog.com/ does not show its originator. I don´t think this is ethical. If one makes accusations on the internet, show your face. As long as that is not the case, the accusations fall short. So let´s not speculate about anything that is said on said site.

2. We do not know if Jamie Wiens is a full time luthier (maybe repairman etc.), how his shop operates, how his other work progresses (like guitars I hear he is/was building). We do not know about his workload, output and income. We do not have any info (not even from Jamie Wiens himself. Therefore any statement in this direction is speculation. Let´s not speculate here either.

3. Wait times are subject to emotional stress at times. We have two incidents (reported by deepmountain and MandoCowboy) that show us that the wait time was too long for them (I feel with you) and who apparently had (MandoCowboy still has as verified by Jamie Wiens in his post) issues to anul the contract and reclaim the allready payed money. We do not know if this is the rule or the exception, because of our lack of knowledge about Jamie Wiens´ business volume. So let´s not speculate here either.

4. What we know is (in a nutshell)
a. deepmountain and MandoCowboy wanted a mandolin built by Jamie Wiens, waited a long time, got tired waiting, wanted to anul the contract, wanted prepaid money back and didn´t get it back yet (MandoCowboy) or had to wait a long time for most of the money (deepmeountain).
b. Jamie Wiens claims that selling a "build slot" is subject to his approval and otherwise "unlawful".
c. Jamie Wiens says that MandoCowboy will get his money back after the sale of the (ordered) mandolin if MandoCowboy will "release" the mando (which Jamie Wiens claims is in advanced stage of being built).


--------------------------------

First of all, let me clarify that it is with sincere, heartfelt grief I hear of problems like these (I remember the J. Condino thread where he complains about unnamed customer[s] with other builders chiming in, do you? I also remember the Darby Boofer thread from back when, do you?)

I do think that all involved parties have a right to be up front with their opinions about the other party´s way of acting. We others have no axe to grind there so we cannot judge the case.

But if I´m not dang awfully and seriously mistaken (as a legal professional), if a contract is not met either party has the right to revoke the contract. This means a full refund of allready made payments. And I must be equally doggonned mistaken if it´s not perfectly legal to sell a "build slot".

But why grind an axe here. We all had our experiences in an instrument purchase. I think the general rule is
- you make a downpayment (like 500 USD)
- you wait
- you pay the rest upon completion of the instrument (before shipping).

This way both customer and luthier have an equal share of risk (that the deal falls through, the luthier dies, USPS breaks the instrument in transit etc.)

The rest is up to taste. (I waited 3 years for a great mandolin, that was allright; I might just buy me a new instrument for which I may have to wait ... 4 years [I know the luthiers, they are great and build great instruments, 4 years wait time is very long and it may just be too long]; I would never get on a list of people like Wayne Henderson, John Arnold, T.J. Thompson etc. because the wait time would kill me and then I´d be unable to enjoy the instrument) Other people have different tastes.

I read a post that a Dude was for sale in the classifieds. I se that the price is 10.000 USD lower than it would have been a couple of years ago when they went for about 35.000 USD. Anybody wanna comment...

[Jill McAuley]

I just find it a wee bit ironic that Mr. Weins refers to the disgruntled client as "unscrupulous" - a bit like the pot calling the kettle black when you've had $5000 of someone's hard earned money for several years, while they were empty handed, waiting on an instrument that wasn't materializing.

Cheers,
Jill

[mandopete]

As sad as this story is I am glad that the Mandolin Cafe has seen fit to allow this discussion to continue in public. Having been a member of this community for a number years now it's somewhat impressive that this discussion has risen to level of civility that speaks volumes of where we have come to in our evolution (no, I don't want my tail back thank-you!).

[kirksdad]

Whatever the situation may be I´d like to express the following:

1. The website in the original (1st) post http://www.custominstrumentwatchdog.com/ does not show its originator. I don´t think this is ethical. If one makes accusations on the internet, show your face. As long as that is not the case, the accusations fall short. So let´s not speculate about anything that is said on said site.

2. We do not know if Jamie Wiens is a full time luthier (maybe repairman etc.), how his shop operates, how his other work progresses (like guitars I hear he is/was building). We do not know about his workload, output and income. We do not have any info (not even from Jamie Wiens himself. Therefore any statement in this direction is speculation. Let´s not speculate here either.

3. Wait times are subject to emotional stress at times. We have two incidents (reported by deepmountain and MandoCowboy) that show us that the wait time was too long for them (I feel with you) and who apparently had (MandoCowboy still has as verified by Jamie Wiens in his post) issues to anul the contract and reclaim the allready payed money. We do not know if this is the rule or the exception, because of our lack of knowledge about Jamie Wiens´ business volume. So let´s not speculate here either.

4. What we know is (in a nutshell)
a. deepmountain and MandoCowboy wanted a mandolin built by Jamie Wiens, waited a long time, got tired waiting, wanted to anul the contract, wanted prepaid money back and didn´t get it back yet (MandoCowboy) or had to wait a long time for most of the money (deepmeountain).
b. Jamie Wiens claims that selling a "build slot" is subject to his approval and otherwise "unlawful".
c. Jamie Wiens says that MandoCowboy will get his money back after the sale of the (ordered) mandolin if MandoCowboy will "release" the mando (which Jamie Wiens claims is in advanced stage of being built).


--------------------------------

First of all, let me clarify that it is with sincere, heartfelt grief I hear of problems like these (I remember the J. Condino thread where he complains about unnamed customer[s] with other builders chiming in, do you? I also remember the Darby Boofer thread from back when, do you?)

I do think that all involved parties have a right to be up front with their opinions about the other party´s way of acting. We others have no axe to grind there so we cannot judge the case.

But if I´m not dang awfully and seriously mistaken (as a legal professional), if a contract is not met either party has the right to revoke the contract. This means a full refund of allready made payments. And I must be equally doggonned mistaken if it´s not perfectly legal to sell a "build slot".

But why grind an axe here. We all had our experiences in an instrument purchase. I think the general rule is
- you make a downpayment (like 500 USD)
- you wait
- you pay the rest upon completion of the instrument (before shipping).

This way both customer and luthier have an equal share of risk (that the deal falls through, the luthier dies, USPS breaks the instrument in transit etc.)

The rest is up to taste. (I waited 3 years for a great mandolin, that was allright; I might just buy me a new instrument for which I may have to wait ... 4 years [I know the luthiers, they are great and build great instruments, 4 years wait time is very long and it may just be too long]; I would never get on a list of people like Wayne Henderson, John Arnold, T.J. Thompson etc. because the wait time would kill me and then I´d be unable to enjoy the instrument) Other people have different tastes.

I read a post that a Dude was for sale in the classifieds. I se that the price is 10.000 USD lower than it would have been a couple of years ago when they went for about 35.000 USD. Anybody wanna comment...



The deep mountain has expressed his views, Jaime had a chance to refute them (which he did weakly) and the community is better off for having heard this. I believe its the quantifiable actions of the builder, which lead to this being aired. I'm not sure why you and Betram are defending Jaime....<inappropriate comment deleted by Moderator>.........

[JeffD]

The whole thing is tragic and distressing. It shows how fragile a reputation can be, right or wrong, and how powerful the internet can be in destroying a reputation, right or wrong. The reputation holder is always vulnerable.


I distinguish a difference between what might be sloppy in the business world, and what would be considered unscrupulous, and knowing absolutely nothing about it except what has been posted here, I am not going to pile on, I am giving Jamie Wiens the benefit of the doubt, and would absolutley consider him in a future build or purchase. And if that turns out to be overly charitable, so be it, thats the side I am prepared to error on.

[Lynn Dudenbostel]

Olaf.. to my knowledge, my F-5s have never sold for $10k more than the asking price on this one. They have sold for more than this, but the mandolin market is soft compared to years past. Just look at the number of Loars that are available now compared to a few years back! These things go in cycles, and I suspect the market will rebound in time. I'm just glad it's not a vintage electric guitar. That market has gone beyond soft, with some instruments worth 1/3 of what they were 2 1/2 to 3 years ago. Nothing wrong with this mandolin except the timing of the sale.

Lynn

[250sc]

Grassroots,

I can have an opinion with the information provided by the luthier and the customers who feel they're being abused. I haven't speculated on anything. (I can use bolded text too. Very impressive.) I don't have to be involved in the transaction to have an opinion based on what the parties have stated.

The contract between the parties has been breached for years now. The luthier never stated that the instrument will be done when it's done. He gave a time frame and didn't meet it and can't refund the down payment because he spent it.

[Gerry Cassidy]

The deep mountain has expressed his views, Jaime had a chance to refute them (which he did weakly) and the community is better off for having heard this. I believe its the quantifiable actions of the builder, which lead to this being aired. I'm not sure why you and Betram are defending Jaime ....<inappropriate quoted comment deleted by Moderator>

Resorting to racial comments?

This whole thread seems a little "Lynch Mob'ish" to me.

[Spruce]

Why is it acceptable for an order to be late by months or years? It seems to me the luthiers should give a realistic delivery date and meet it.

No sympathy to Wiens here.

Well then, you'll have to add Mike Kemnitzer, Steve Gilchrist, John Sullivan, John Monteleone, and several others to your feces-list... ;)
(A fine list to be on, and I put Jamie right up there)....

What happens is that a builder gets real popular, real fast (especially in this internet age), and gets totally swamped...
Years out in some cases....
And one little glitch--health problems, family issues, etc. etc.--throws everything out of whack...

And most of them don't want to go the good 'ol traditional capitalistic path of hiring a bunch of employees to knock out some mandolins...
Good on 'em...

I ordered mandolins from 2-out-of-3 of the aforementioned builders, and when the mando arrived, it arrived...

I didn't badger them, or even mention the order when I talked to them, unless they brought it up...

When it happened, it happened, and it was a wonderful day when it did happen...
And it did happen....

I don't necessarily recommend this way of doing things, but it worked for me.....
And the builders, I assume....

(Thought I'd get this in there before the gates go down)..... ;)

[resophil]

Well, I HAVE been involved in a transaction, and I don't have to speculate! I've corresponded with Scott about this, and he has asked me to post here:

I first became aware of Jamie Wiens about 1997 or thereabouts when I started a bluegrass band here in Edmonton. My friend bought a mandolin from Jamie; it was the first one he had ever built, and was a bit “clubby” in the neck. But it was a powerful instrument, and it was evident that there were some possibilities for the builder in years to come if he kept after his trade. (I’m a cabinetmaker, and well-versed in wood lore…)

After a couple of years of intermittent e-mailing and phone calls back-and-forth, Jamie and I agreed to have him build me a Loar styled L-5 replica. Jamie was into studying Loar’s instruments, had been able to sketch John Reischman’s instrument, and really wanted the chance to build…He wasn’t doing anything much at the time, (living at home with his parents) and didn’t seem to have much in the way of income… He quoted me a price including Calton case, and we proceeded.

Now, as I mentioned, I’m a tradesman. I am used to dealing with building contracts and in my trade, it’s rare to do a job without one! After all the discussions were complete, I prepared a comprehensive description of what was agreed to for the guitar, and framed it into a contract, of which I sent a couple of signed copies to Jamie. I told him that he would get his down payment when I received a signed copy back from him. I gather he had never been faced with a contract before, but he DID sign and return the contract to me. This is the one thing that saved my bacon later on!!!

I sent Jamie a cheque on Nov.6, 2000 for a thousand bucks, as the down payment. I followed a month later with another thousand, but Jamie cried that he wasn’t working, didn’t have any money, and needed to tool up for a whole new instrument, so I sent him another 600 a few days later, and told him that that was all he was getting. (it was about 60% of the contract) We corresponded a few times during the next year, but I saw no pictures, or progress reports.

So, a year later, (the next November or December,) a buddy and I fired up one weekend and told Jamie we were stopping by. We arrived at his folk’s house at 10 in the morning to find Jamie still in bed… No guitar was evident, and Jamie tried to pawn me off with a plank leaning against the wall. Now I had brought gifts with me, (I bought him a copy of the L-5 plans from Stew-Mac, and made a depth caliper for graduating tops, for him. You can still see it on his site amongst his building pictures…) I told Jamie straight to his face that this was unacceptable in light of his promises to me. His delivery date was 3-4 months imminent, and he had done nothing. This upset Jamie fiercely and our relationship went downhill from there. He eventualy started the build, but the relationship deteriorated further.

Recriminations, threats, rhetoric, and the “artist” point-of-view then filled my inbox. Jamie seemed to think that it was a privilege for me to be the recipient of his craftsmanship (even though there was none of it in evidence…) As I said, several others around town had by now played the original mandolin and were favourably impressed. At least three more orders came to fruition, two of which I knew about intimately. We began to talk and it became evident that they weren’t faring any better in their builds either.

After a sufficient number of insulting e-mails and demands for more money from Jamie, I took matters in hand. Jamie accused me of not “supporting” his artistic endeavours (more of the same BS) and got downright nasty! I sent him an e-mail in the spring of 2002 saying that his demands did not sit well in the face of a written and signed building contract. I gave him a way out, but threatened to sue him if he didn’t bring about resolution of the contract. (By now I had given up hope that I would ever get an instrument that I wanted from Jamie)

Within a week of my ultimatum, I had my money back in hand in the form of a certified cheque, as well as a request to be released from the contract. I don’t know where he got the money, but at least I got mine back.

Both of the other customers that I knew closely got their mandolins after lengthy delays, and much of the same rhetoric that we seemingly all faced. To cap things off, both of those mandolins had the tops cave in after a year, and then they needed to go back to be repaired. That led to no end of ill feelings.

The importance of having a contract cannot be over-stressed in dealing with a builder. During our troubles, Jamie emphatically told me that he would NEVER AGAIN deal with a customer who wanted a written contract. Neither of my friends had one when dealing with him, and both were extremely reluctant to pursue any legal action against Jamie. For my American friends, I can only sympathize! Dealing with an incident cross-border like this, would certainly devour an immense amount of money in legal fees, for the hoped-for gain. And would anyone really want an instrument that was built for them in such a grudging manner?

It may be that the chickens are coming home to roost after ten years of dealing with customers in such an abusive manner!

I could add much, much more, but I have put Jamie behind me for the most part. That doesn’t mean that I don’t warn others about dealing with him if the subject arises, but Jamie’s impassioned plea on the forum falls on my deaf ears…!!!

I include here a quote from the last communication I ever sent to Jamie Wiens:
"I hope that things go well for you, Jamie. You are a talented young man who needs to develop a good business sense and a good work ethic. I sincerely hope you do."

Larry Seutter

[chasray]

It will be a good thing for Jamie Wiens to build the best mandolin he can, THEN sell it. He has some obstacles to overcome that are largely his own doing. I hope he does.

Trust is a precious thing.

Personally, I have had two mandolins built for me by independents who frequent this website. Communication was good, they did what they said, only a fraction of the price was needed upfront. It was a pleasant experience both times. I wish that for all.

[allenhopkins]

Every musician, like every builder, is an "artist" to some extent. That doesn't mean I can make an agreement to perform somewhere, take a deposit, show up two hours late for the gig, and then dis the person who hired me, for not understanding the "realities" of the "music biz."

If you make an agreement to produce your "art" for a customer, whether it be a concert or a mandolin or the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, you're a businessperson as well as an artist. That implies you must be businesslike as well as artistic. Occasional accidents, oversights and downright failures are understandable; I've been late for a gig or two, for sure. An overall pattern that leaves dissatisfied customers in its wake, is going to be fatal in the long run.

If you're a painter, and you paint pictures, hang them in a gallery, and hope someone likes them and buys them, that's one thing. If you take a contract to paint Ms. Bigbucks' portrait, with a deposit and a deadline, that's another. Perhaps Mr. Wiens is making a wise decision to build on his own schedule and sell his instruments when they, and he, are ready. Hope he can make a living working that way. As a semi-pro musician of non-stellar talent, one of the things I sell to "clients" is professionalism and dependability. I'm there when I said I'd be there, and I do what I said I'd do. Doesn't make me a hero, just someone trying to get along in a world where no one has to lay out the buxx for my "art," and where there are plenty others who can do what I do.

The cost of an extended discussion like this, to the builder being discussed, must be incalculable. I'm sure Mr. Wiens' business, if not his art, will suffer from it. But there is a great deal to be said for professionalism as well as artistry.

[Andrew DeMarco]

Thanks Scott for allowing this to go on.

Having read all of this -- I wouldn't order a custom from Weins (option is now off the table), but I would buy one of his mandolins if I liked it.

[fatt-dad]

Oh my! I had alot to read at lunch today, eh?

f-d

[grassrootphilosopher]

The deep mountain has expressed his views, Jaime had a chance to refute them (which he did weakly) and the community is better off for having heard this. I believe its the quantifiable actions of the builder, which lead to this being aired. I'm not sure why you and Betram are defending Jaime....<inappropriate comment deleted by Moderator>.........

I´m not defending Jamie Wiens. I just try to steer out of speculations way. I´d especially like to point you towards the end of my post which gives my moderate opinion about anuling a contract and the general division of risks between customer and luthier.


Lynn Dudenbostel

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Olaf.. to my knowledge, my F-5s have never sold for $10k more than the asking price on this one.

Oh, I remember Elderly having one of your mandolins a couple of years back (2005 [?]) for about 35.000 USD, though I may be wrong.

My humble search skills came up with this thread (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26726&highlight=dudenbostel). Your classified ad had 28.000 USD for an F-5 in 2006 and fellow café fellas support my memory (as that I´ve seen one of your mandos for about 35 k at Elderly).

Heck, more power to you, Lynn. Never played one of your mandos though I surely wouldn´t mind if I did, not at all. They look great (and Josh Pinkams soundclip on your site sounds great as well).

As for your shop, I wish you the best; and if I may make it to your neck of the woods, may I stop by and try one of your mandos out? (... though I don´t have cash ready to buy one)

[mrmando]

One reason a builder might be reluctant to let a customer sell his "build slot": Suppose I agreed 5 years ago to build a mandolin for $5K, but now in 2010 my mandolins are selling for $10K. If one of my customers sells his build slot to another customer, I still have to deliver that mandolin for $5K. If, however, I can buy out the original customer myself, I can then sell the mandolin at the new price and pocket the difference.

Of course, if the customer no longer wants the mandolin, he could still hang on to his build slot, take delivery whenever it's finished, flip it to someone else for $10K and take the profit himself...

[grassrootphilosopher]

One reason a builder might be reluctant to let a customer sell his "build slot": Suppose I agreed 5 years ago to build a mandolin for $5K, but now in 2010 my mandolins are selling for $10K. If one of my customers sells his build slot to another customer, I still have to deliver that mandolin for $5K. If, however, I can buy out the original customer myself, I can then sell the mandolin at the new price and pocket the difference.

Of course, if the customer no longer wants the mandolin, he could still hang on to his build slot, take delivery whenever it's finished, flip it to someone else for $10K and take the profit himself...

The builder might be reluctant but it´s perfectly legal. There´s not much difference if a "build slot" is sold for 5 grand or the finished instrument is sold for 5 grand (even if it´s worth three times as much). For example I know a guy that bought out a Gilchrist build slot in the 90ies (wasn´t me).

[Links]

Thanks Larry - very enlightening!

I have two points. First, this sort of thing really impacts all builders in that it makes perspective clients think twice about having a custom instrument built. It shoudln't, but if you read what Jamie says, it is part and parcel of being an "artist". Part of Jamies' problem in calling himself an artist is the fact that although a significant amount of art is involved, there is also a huge chunk of "production" work that does not require the artist side of the brain operating on all cylinders.

My second point, which no one has mentioned, pertains to Jim putting up his slot for sale after knowing the problems he had with Jamie. Why in the world would you try and sell a build slot to an person not familiar with what went on - and - why do you think someone would take it if they knew the problems. Jamie owed you the "cancellation fee" - not someone wanting a build spot!

[AlanN]

a Gilchrist build slot in the 90ies

Ahh, the gay 90's, when 'Goils was goils and men were men' - and Gilchrists were priced right!

All I know is that piccolo mandolin was the cat's meow!

[deepmountain]

Hi there,

I’m Jim’s partner and I do his computer stuff for him. I’ve been following this thread as I put up the previous posts for him and have been through this mis-adventure with him. I would not join in on this ordinarily because it’s Jim business, but I feel compelled to do so because he is at work now and can’t respond and I would like to clarify a few things on his behalf.

1/ the “unscrupulous builders” website:

http://www.custominstrumentwatchdog.com/

was not put up by Jim (deepmountain) but by Walt, (mandocowboy) the OP of this thread. Jim lent his support to Walt and allowed him to use copies of the email exchanges between Jim and Jamie on said site.

2/ The email excerpts on the website are only a small portion of what actually transpired and while taken out of context they do accurately reflect how Jamie chose to communicate with a client who had the audacity to ask him to uphold his agreement while holding $5000 dollars of that client’s money.

3/ Jim had a written/ signed contract from Jamie, not a “handshake” or an email contract.

4/ Walt is still out $7000 waiting for Jamie to sell a mandolin so he can get his money back. It was Walt’s further payment that Jamie used to refund Jim’s money.

5/ The purpose of bringing all this out into the open is both Walt and Jim feel that people should finally know about Jamie’s poor (at best) business practices and his abusive manner in dealing with clients. It’s not to “grind an ax” and to destroy someone’s reputation, only Jamie himself is responsible for that.

6/ Jim did everything in his power to be reasonable, friendly, and interested in the process (Jim is also a fine woodworker and so was keenly interested in the building techniques, etc.), and to communicate respectfully with Jamie—even when Jamie became disrespectful of Jim, which began to happen when Jim, a year after the original contracted due date came and went, began to ask for a new delivery date. That’s when he became to Jamie a “PIA” as well as other defamations of his character. (I guess it’s considered unreasonable to ask someone to live up to their end of the bargain.) And I can say without any hesitation, much to the contrary, that Jim is honest, with deep integrity and he bent over backwards to support Jamie whenever he needed it, when he needed to move, when he needed more money for whatever the purpose.

Finally, Jim is a player, not a collector, who works hard as a maintenance worker at the university here, doesn’t have deep pockets and sold a beautiful Santa Cruz Guitar to get the down payment for the Wiens. He was 65 when he ordered the Wiens and it was going to be an instrument he would play for whatever he time he had left in this life. He did not see it as an investment.

What’s really sad to me as a witness of this whole process was to see someone that I love and care about start out like a kid in the candy store, thrilled at the prospect of being able to acquire a once in a lifetime instrument, only to have that sweet candy turn to ashes in his mouth.

But the end of the story turned out sweet after all. Jim acquired a Givens F-5 that he loves and is happily playing away on.

I’m very sorry for Walt and any other of Jamie’s clients who are still waiting.

best regards to all--

Kathryn Stark

[deepmountain]

My second point, which no one has mentioned, pertains to Jim putting up his slot for sale after knowing the problems he had with Jamie. Why in the world would you try and sell a build slot to an person not familiar with what went on - and - why do you think someone would take it if they knew the problems. Jamie owed you the "cancellation fee" - not someone wanting a build spot!



Please get your facts straight...it's not Jim who was trying to sell his slot, but Walt (mandocowboy)

KS (for Jim)

[grassrootphilosopher]

My second point, which no one has mentioned, pertains to ... putting up his slot for sale after knowing the problems he had with Jamie. Why in the world would you try and sell a build slot to an person not familiar with what went on - and - why do you think someone would take it if they knew the problems.

Interesting perspective.

Other than that, I think that there´s not much more to be said here.


AlanN
Quote:
Originally Posted by grassrootphilosopher
a Gilchrist build slot in the 90ies

Ahh, the gay 90's, when 'Goils was goils and men were men' - and Gilchrists were priced right!

Them was the days and I was just poor enough to buy me a Strad-O-Lin instead of a Gilchrist. Life is still good.

[Scotti Adams]

Not to add more fuel to the fire honestly but Im wondering if the recent Weins that have been commissioned, bought and shown here in the last couple of years were of no troubles or just the ones that were commissioned before Mr. Weins "personal problems" came to take a toll. Im thinking that there were a couple of mandos that popped up of custom builds that seemed to be pushed to the front of the line. Could be wrong..usually am. No flames please. This is truly a sad situation for all who is involved and theres a great wealth of things to be learned.

[foldedpath]

Why is it acceptable for an order to be late by months or years? It seems to me the luthiers should give a realistic delivery date and meet it.

In my experience with three custom orders from individual luthiers (Holst and Leach), and two custom orders from small-scale factories (Santa Cruz and Breedlove), this isn't a practical expectation, unless you're dealing with a newbie builder with no waiting list who is very, very hungry. And that's not always a good situation either.

In every one of those cases -- three full custom guitars, one semi-custom guitar and one special order mandola -- I was given an estimated delivery date, and in every case but one, it ran overtime from six months to a little over a year for one of the guitars. To be fair, the extra year for one of the guitars was partly due to my spec'ing a pickup that was difficult to get.

I've never had an order go late by two years or more, which I'm sure is coloring my feelings about this, but some delay seems to be normal in this business. This is known as "luthier time" in online forum discussions. When a luthier says an instrument should be ready at X date, I always assume this means "X + 50%". That way, I'm pleasantly surprised if it arrives earlier, and my blood pressure doesn't go up if it's late. I think people can get into trouble working with independent small-shop luthier, when they expect the buying process to work like a normal commodity product purchase.

That said, I've always had good communication with the luthiers I've worked with, and I was always treated respectfully during the ordering process. When everything goes well, it's an incredibly fun and satisfying process to work with a luthier on a custom instrument built to your specs. Mr. Wiens didn't dispute the content of the emails quoted on that web site, and I've never had an order go south like that. If those quotes are accurate, then I can't fault the buyer from getting steamed and taking it online.

[Rob Gerety]

In my business we take advances or retainers but we do not - and cannot - use any of the money until we do work and earn the money. This business of taking a large retainer and spending it before you start work is a big part of the problem. The money should either be held until completion or taken in installments based on progress.

[Scotti Adams]

in my business we take advances or retainers but we do not - and cannot - use any of the money until we do work and earn the money. This business of taking a large retainer and spending it before you start work is a big part of the problem. The money should either be held until completion or taken in installments based on progress.

bingo!!

[Mandoblab]

Quoted from "Spruce:"

"Well then, you'll have to add Mike Kemnitzer, Steve Gilchrist, John Sullivan, John Monteleone, and several others to your feces-list..."

With regard to Steve Gilchrist, I really hope I am misinterpreting your comment. Steve and I had an email agreement. He gave me a delivery date, progress photos of the numbered instrument as he built it, and had it delivered to me two weeks earlier than promised!

He was a delight to work with and has continued to immediately respond to any questions I have had for him in the three and half years since I received the mandolin.

By the way, Steve doesn't refer to himself as an "artist" (although those that have enjoyed his artistry might disagree with him). He, like you, calls himself a "wood butcher."

Mandoblab

[Chris Biorkman]

It's one thing to overshoot your wait time if you have your nose to the grindstone, but it's quite another to do it by as much as the builder in question has done when you are averaging about one completed instrument per year. There is no excuse that could possibly justify this.

[AlanN]

Quoted from "Spruce:"

"Well then, you'll have to add Mike Kemnitzer, Steve Gilchrist, John Sullivan, John Monteleone, and several others to your feces-list..."

With regard to Steve Gilchrist, I really hope I am misinterpreting your comment. Steve and I had an email agreement. He gave me a delivery date, progress photos of the numbered instrument as he built it, and had it delivered to me two weeks earlier than promised!

He was a delight to work with and has continued to immediately respond to any questions I have had for him in the three and half years since I received the mandolin.

By the way, Steve doesn't refer to himself as an "artist" (although those that have enjoyed his artistry might disagree with him). He, like you, calls himself a "wood butcher."

Mandoblab


My experience precisely.

And this business of taking Peter's check to pay Paul, I think there's a financier doing time in Butner for following that business model.

[Scotti Adams]

"And this business of taking Peter's check to pay Paul, I think there's a financier doing time in Butner for following that business model."

Damn Alan..Ive got tea coming out of my nose..

[Spruce]

With regard to Steve Gilchrist, I really hope I am misinterpreting your comment.

I was talking about back in the day, when he first started getting swamped....

And this is in no way a criticism of those builders mentioned.
I was merely pointing out that in this biz, stuff happens....

And apparently still is.....

[250sc]

Ron Oats is a better example of bad buisness practices than any of the ones Spruce mentioned.

[Spruce]

Ron Oats is a better example of bad buisness practices than any of the ones Spruce mentioned.

Again, I wasn't criticizing.... :disbelief:

I was not comparing any of my good friends to Mr. Oats, who I do not know.... ;)

[Sleepy]

Well, this has certainly changed my thinking on ordering a custom. Headed to the classifieds. I will leave you with this quote.
"There are three kind of men, The one that learn from reading, the few that learn by observation, the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves"
- Will Rogers.

[JimRichter]

Well, this has certainly changed my thinking on ordering a custom. Headed to the classifieds. I will leave you with this quote.
"There are three kind of men, The one that learn from reading, the few that learn by observation, the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves"
- Will Rogers.


That's throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The list of reputable and trouble free builders is 100 times longer than the few where trouble has been encountered.

[Chuck Naill]

Well, this has certainly changed my thinking on ordering a custom. Headed to the classifieds. I will leave you with this quote.
"There are three kind of men, The one that learn from reading, the few that learn by observation, the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves"
- Will Rogers.

This is not a commercial, but the builder whose web site is below my signature works in his shop everyday, seven days a week.

He takes custom orders and can have you a good product within a matter of weeks. There is no reason why it should take him less time to build and violin or mandolin than anyone else unless it is because he works everyday.

He never accepts payment prior to finishing the instrument and takes cash. He has been successful with this method for 55 years. :)

[Rob Gerety]

Where I come down on this is that unless you are wealthy with money to burn and unless you are a very very skilled player, you might want to think long and hard about wading into the world of custom built instruments. I know you are right that the list of good outcomes is way way longer than the list of bad outcomes. And the instruments can be stunning. Still, I think the best thing for guys like me is to suffer along with used high end instruments or the Collings, Webers, etc. of the world, or maybe a vintage instrument. There are so many instruments out there that will meet my needs and my pocket book that I'm just not going down that road again. So for some people it can be a wonderful experience. But I'm not playing in that league.

[Glassweb]

What’s really sad to me as a witness of this whole process was to see someone that I love and care about start out like a kid in the candy store, thrilled at the prospect of being able to acquire a once in a lifetime instrument, only to have that sweet candy turn to ashes in his mouth.

Kathryn Stark[/QUOTE]

so well and beautifully put Kathryn. after all i've read on this thread i think Jamie would be best served to finish the mandolin he is currently working on, make it as wonderfully as possible, get it to the appropriate buyer and then find a way to refund every single dollar he has for deposits on instruments.

[Tom Sanderson]

Having a Mandolin built is not for everyone. If you want one from the top builders, you should be prepared to get in line and wait. I have had two Nuggets built for me. The first one took over six years. The second took around two years. I knew going into it that Mike had a long list and I expected them to take longer than they did. Mike never gave me a promised date of delivery, he did tell me how many were ahead of mine and how many he usually finished per year. I did the math and figured it was well worth the wait. I was right. The wait time gave me the opportunity to save my money so I had them paid for when they were done.

[doc holiday]

Rob, It's too bad you feel inclined to avoid single luthier shops. As a lefty, nearly all my instruments have been customs. Both Weber and Collings have built great instruments for me. I've taken the advice of both friends and professional musicians on the choice of luthiers. I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but often because of low overheads, an individual builder can give you a great instrument and value for your money. The Whipple Creek Mahogany dread I just got, is a match for guitars I've had that cost two or three times as much. Renowned players like Jody Stecher, Tom Rozum and John Reischman have played Stan Miller's mandolins.....yet you can buy an A style for 4.5K. Here's what his website says.."Given the time available, I expect to complete two mandolins every four months. No deposit is required. " Buying instruments, I've had more good experiences than bad ones, and I believe the mandolincafe community and the music community in general is made up of good people.

[foldedpath]

Well, this has certainly changed my thinking on ordering a custom.


Where I come down on this is that unless you are wealthy with money to burn and unless you are a very very skilled player, you might want to think long and hard about wading into the world of custom built instruments.

Well, don't tar the whole profession based on one bad actor. Working with a luthier to create something special, has been the most satisfying part of instrument ownership for me over the years. My S.O. just had an amazingly good experience working with a local violin luthier on a custom build. Neither of us are hotshot players, but we have been playing long enough to start developing a sense of what we like and don't like in an instrument. That's really all you need, along with not being able to find what you want easily, off the rack. If you can find the perfect fit in a pre-built instrument, and don't have the desire to go through the process of working with a luthier, then it's an easy decision.

If you do go for a custom instrument, just do enough research about the luthier to feel comfortable about the process. Ask for referrals to satisfied customers. Any good luthier who has been in the business for a few years should be able to provide that. Once a decision is made, be very clear (in writing) about contractual agreements. Delivery time is often a variable, but nothing else should vary from the initial agreement.

[Rob Gerety]

Well, don't tar the whole profession based on one bad actor.

I totally agree we should not tar the whole profession. That is not my intent. For many people it can be a great experience. Its just not for me.

[deepmountain]

so well and beautifully put Kathryn. after all i've read on this thread i think Jamie would be best served to finish the mandolin he is currently working on, make it as wonderfully as possible, get it to the appropriate buyer and then find a way to refund every single dollar he has for deposits on instruments.


Thanks Glassweb. In addition to what you suggest, I would hope that Jamie would also learn something from this and change the way he does business, as well as taking a long look at himself and reflecting upon how he treats people in the process. Granted, some clients may be somewhat anxious or a little pesky; from what I witnessed I don't think Jim was—I think his patience with JW was above and beyond.

Regardless, even if a client might be a bit anxious for whatever reason, it doesn't give JW the right to be abusive and insulting; from what I've read here from others with similar experiences with him, that seems to be JW's M.O. I guess when all else fails, some people just have to blame others for their own faults and shortcomings.

best—

KS

(I'm going to bow out of this now and let Jim speak for himself should he wish to participate further in the discussion.)

[delsbrother]

Jamie does not address his contention of being "an artist, not a businessman". I highly doubt that any of the many fine craftspeople on the Cafe who produce wonderful instruments would ever use that rationale.

Eh, I'm not so sure about that. :cool:

The thing that bothers me is Mr. Wiens is still contemplating selling spots on a wait list. That's not something you do if you can't meet deadlines.

[George R. Lane]

I have been following this and other threads about Mr. Weins and the problems associated with his delivery times. I think the old saying 'caveat emptor', or 'buyer beware' fits perfectly for this thread. My feeling is that we have beat this dead horse long enough.

[Links]

Please get your facts straight...it's not Jim who was trying to sell his slot, but Walt (mandocowboy)

KS (for Jim)

KS - I apologize to Jim to suggest that, but honestly the "characters" become muddled and I made a mistake. Jim sounds like someone of great integrity and trying to sell a his build spot did not seem like him - and it wasn't.

Now I am curious why mandocowboy would have done it, knowing what has already transpired. Maybe there is a good explanation that is totally above board and I just don't get it.

[Chris Biorkman]

I kind of thought the same thing upon viewing the ad for the build slot, having already been aquainted with the previous thread where this topic was initially discussed. It's less than honest trying to pawn your problem off on someone else and that was what it appeared like to me. I'm sure that it appeared the same way to others based on the fact that he didn't have any takers.

[Ken Waltham]

I would be very curious to know the amount of actual "work time" that transpires in these cases. My point is that I have worked at the same job for 32 years now, and I know what it means to get up at 04:45 in the morning and put in a day. Then, be a father, husband and general handyman on my days off.
I really and sincerely believe that luthier's who are a problem to their customers in areas of delivery dates do not do an honest days work. I think they do not knuckle down and work like the rest of us have to. If you go in the shop and work, things shoud by rights get done.
As for Steve Gilchrist, just look at his output over the years, and you will see a man who is not afraid of work. And... I think you could rightly call him an artist, or any other flattering name you could come up with.
He also has time to do the very best available repairs on this planet to Loar signed F5's, and other instruments. How can a man do this?
Because he works.
When he repaired Ronnie McCourey's Loar, he did 9 Loars in that 2 week period he was in Missouri. How does he do that? Hard work.
I was raised on a farm, and know how to, and still do work with my back, my hands, as well as my mind and emotion.
It's never hurt me and made me a better person.
That is simply what is lacking here.
Just my humble, country opinion.
Ken

[Flattpicker]

miniscule footnote: wait time for a Fleta classical guitar is, and long has been, 20 (twenty) years.

[Tom Haywood]

I'm glad this thread was allowed to continue. A lot of good lessons on both sides of this issue are coming out. Very educational!

[Mike Bunting]

miniscule footnote: wait time for a Fleta classical guitar is, and long has been, 20 (twenty) years.

It is not about the wait time.

[fredfrank]

QUOTE: To cap things off, both of those mandolins had the tops cave in after a year, and then they needed to go back to be repaired.

This would be enough to scare me away from this builder. I wonder how long it would take to get it repaired?

[Randi Gormley]

I, too, appreciate the fact that this thread has been able to continue -- especially since scott is so very careful about not letting threads in that do little but bash and flame. I think the fact that this is being allowed to continue (and the amount of posts it has engendered) speaks to a need for a frank discussion of a lot of issues, from customer relations to expectations and fairness. I generally feel (like someone mentioned above), that it was a case of caveat emptor for anybody entering into a pact with someone else -- a cautionary tale, and a good discussion about what is a reasonable response: what's a reasonable time to wait for a custom instrument, what's a reasonable response to delays, what's a reasonable response to a request for information, what's a reasonable expectation of respect on all sides.
In my job, I occasionally speak with people who have a problem with something and feel they've run out of options. In my initial discussions, I first try to see if they have, indeed, followed a reasonable course of action before turning to the newspaper for help. Then I ask them what they expect the paper could do for them if we did write about their issue -- what they want, in the end, and how they feel the paper can help. I applied those questions in my own mind to the original intent of this string. Someone wondered why this was aired on the interweb at all, or couldn't have been kept between gentlemen as a bad experience all around. But I think most of us, whether we can afford a custom instrument or not, have indeed learned something about the process, and that's all to the good. It's a lot like watching "United Breaks Guitars." Sometimes, just knowing something is its own reward.

[Mike Bunting]

what's a reasonable time to wait for a custom instrument, what's a reasonable response to delays, what's a reasonable response to a request for information, what's a reasonable expectation of respect on all sides.


The complaint as I see it was not about the wait time, it is about the builders responses to legitimate concerns of the buyer.

[Rob Gerety]

I know what it means to get up at 04:45 in the morning and put in a day. Then, be a father, husband and general handyman on my days off.
I really and sincerely believe that luthier's who are a problem to their customers in areas of delivery dates do not do an honest days work. I think they do not knuckle down and work like the rest of us have to.
Ken

That's it. In a nutshell.

[Spruce]

I really and sincerely believe that luthier's who are a problem to their customers in areas of delivery dates do not do an honest days work. I think they do not knuckle down and work like the rest of us have to. If you go in the shop and work, things shoud by rights get done.

Speaking for my business (http://www.rockisland.com/~tonewoods/), Ken is dead-on, especially if you've been paid (even a small %) up front...

I'm getting a little old to be lugging around a chainsaw and running a saw mill all day like I used to, I like to take the day off and go see if I can get a salmon, I like to travel unexpectedly (greetings from SoCal!!), and, hey, the wood needs to season anyway, so what's the hurry??.... ;)

But that's why I send the tonewood out before asking for payment, let the customer judge whether he or she likes it or not, then ask that them to please send funds if the wood looks OK...

It's a tradeoff, but one that has worked for many years now...
It's old-school, and that's the way I like it....

A lot of conflicts--such as this one--seem to arise from the mando customer plunking down hard-earned funds, then feeling like they disappeared off the radar, with their funds gone, or at least, unacknowledged...

So-ooo, maybe that's the way that some mando makers should do it...?

And that way the mando maker doesn't get locked into an anachronistic price, as many high-end makers have done in the past...

[delsbrother]

Bruce, you need to have your own reality show.

[Chuck Naill]

One thing for sure, the wait for a Wiens mandolin has surely gotten shorter. :grin: after this thread. I also bet that the deposit becomes a thing of the past. :whistling:

[GDAE]

As someone who runs a business involving creating things for clients, I think the most important thing to do to keep a customer happy (aside from being polite, of course) is to keep them updated. If things are running behind, let them know that, tell them why, and give a new ETA. And the CUSTOMER should never be the one who has to mentally build in extra time, the artist should. If you think, as the creator, that it will take you 4 months, perhaps say 5 or 6...this gives you wiggle room and then the customer can be happy that you were early rather than upset that you were late. But above all, polite friendly, quick responses to customer inquiries goes a long way to make them happy. And if you have a waiting list of over a couple of years, close it until you're caught up somewhat, or just take names. I've never felt it was appropriate to take my potential clients money months in advance. But I do keep in touch and let them know that I will be available for their project at X time, if they are still interested.

[barry k]

I wont comment on someone elses business , because it is none of my business, BUT......No deposits????, Sending out mandolins without payment ??, thats recipes for disaster in my humble opinion, and respectfully submitted. Thats all I will say on this subject.

[Spruce]

I wont comment on someone elses business , because it is none of my business, BUT......No deposits????, Sending out mandolins without payment ??, thats recipes for disaster in my humble opinion, and respectfully submitted. Thats all I will say on this subject.

It's done all the time in the violin world....

"Take that bow home and play it awhile" (referring to a $3K bow)...

"Well, you really need to play it in context, so take it and try it out" (referring to a $2.5 million Strad)....)

That's just the way things were, and are, done...

[barry k]

With that being what it is Spruce, do you know of any suppliers or builders that got burnt with that practice? And for the record ,thanks for your act of kindness with me a year and half ago, YOUR A GOOD GUY. sorry for the hj.

[Eric Hanson]

FWIW.
Some years ago I spoke to a friend who is a Professional artist. He said the he tried to use the "artist" excuse, and that he had to be "inspired" to draw. He then said that didn't go too far with his boss. He then explained that he had to learn that he had the ability and could draw on it at his wish. He just had to learn to do so.
Sad that Jamie has not learned to do so yet. I hope that he does learn how to do so. I am sure that when he does he will feel better about himself and his work and business practices will reflect such.
BTW. I did have an early custom built mandolin. #16 as my signature indicates. Butch was great to deal with and did things the "old school way". I am happy with the instrument I received. Both myself and others have remarked on the voicing of the instrument. Having an instrument built for you specifically is marvelous. Exciting and a real joy with the right builder.
May others here have such good experiences.

[CES]

:(

That's pretty much all I can say about this issue.

[fishtownmike]

Don't know if these attacks against Weins are justifiable or not but i do think the person who started the personal attack and the website against him is a coward for hiding behind an anonymous website and is acting just how a immature child would. Don't they have small claims court in Canada? If so that would have been the proper way to handle this issue...Mike

[Spruce]

With that being what it is Spruce, do you know of any suppliers or builders that got burnt with that practice?

Yeah, me (http://www.rockisland.com/~tonewoods/Bad_Traders.html)... ;)

But as far as a high-end mando or violin builder goes, that's kind of the way it should work...

You build it, they try it out for a week, and decide whether it's gonna work out or not...
If "no", the customer pays to get it back to the builder, and then you go from there...

No buying your way to the top of lists, or selling spots...
And no builders dying or being otherwise incapacitated (heaven forbid--but it has famously happened), leaving a large waiting list wishing they hadn't gone down that road...

This obviously doesn't apply to folks who don't have a huge waiting list, or are just starting out building...

This is for the folks who have established a reputation as an upper-tier maker, and the customers who are interested in obtaining one of their instruments....

Which is what this thread is all about....

[Bertram Henze]

The deep mountain has expressed his views, Jaime had a chance to refute them (which he did weakly) and the community is better off for having heard this. I believe its the quantifiable actions of the builder, which lead to this being aired. I'm not sure why you and Betram are defending Jaime....<inappropriate comment deleted by Moderator>.........

I was too late to see the full comment, but just for the record: I am not defending any person.

It is just communication style that I defended, and always will.

I admit to lack of experience, though - never had have made a custom instrument for me yet (always content with stock stuff), and from this story I gather that I haven't missed out - the mere existence of a waiting list would drive me crazy, I'd never survive waiting for 2 years. If I want it, I want it now, life is so short (when you get older, time gets more precious). I make an instrument my own by playing it for a long time, even if I haven't configured it. I sympathize with Spruce's approach.

Thanks to the moderators to let this run long enough for me to find out.

[Dfyngravity]

I have had several mandolins built for me, all custom orders with many special request and they were all delivered in less than a year from when they were started. Were they delivered later than the original estimated time, yup but that's why it was an estimated time. However, like I said they were still delivered within a reasonable time frame of a year.

There are many builders here on the MC and many people here who have had custom built instruments and we all know how long it takes to build a mandolin or any instrument (from the time you start cutting wood to finishing the mandolin).

If you are a full time luthier and it is a taking you years over your estimated delivery time than you are obviously doing other work as well, or you are not working when you should be. Yeah maybe you have become a popular luthier but that doesn't mean you need to start everyone else's instruments while you still have instruments that need to be finished.

Of the builders I have dealt with, they all worked the same way. They worked with small batches at a time until they finish them and then start another small batch. This makes sense to me and seams to work for many luthiers. By sticking with something like this they know within reason the estimated delivery time.

I know that Jamie's mandolin are absolutely stunning and from what I have heard are great sounding too. But from what I can tell, he isn't doing anything more special to his mandolins than any other builder out there. So why is it taking years to complete a mandolin once he has started it? That seems to be where the problem is and I think it is good thing for the consumers to know. I know that people can be on waiting list for a few years until it is their turn for their mandolin to get underway and that is expected with popular luthiers, but if it takes more than a year or two to actually build it......I know it takes time and there are lots of details and some times things come up but really?


I think Jamie is doing the right thing by taking no more custom orders and building what he wants when he want while not leaving anyone hanging. This is what he probably should have been doing the whole time.

[Glassweb]

I know that Jamie's mandolin are absolutely stunning and from what I have heard are great sounding too. But from what I can tell, he isn't doing anything more special to his mandolins than any other builder out there. [/QUOTE]

actually, Jamie does LOTS of things other builders don't do. Dan Beimborn would have all the specifics, but let's just say that Jamie is probably the most Loar-obsessed builder alive today... and the final product shows it (unfortunately, I've never had a chance to play one)! if you have never seen images here on the Cafe of Jamie's incredible (if infrequent) work, i highly suggest you go to The Mandolin Archive and check out the photos of his most recent work. the most true-to-Loar f5's i've ever seen.

[danb]

actually, Jamie does LOTS of things other builders don't do. Dan Beimborn would have all the specifics, but let's just say that Jamie is probably the most Loar-obsessed builder alive today...

Yes, there are plenty of things that make them special and a lot more work, plus many more craftsmen making custom parts to make that happen- all of that can contribute to the timeline. Making stuff to a vintage spec requires a lot of extra work vs using what's more readily avaialble. The extra customization of part (wood, binding, tuners, virzis, pickguards, bridges, tailpieces, peghead overlay, truss rod covers) would require a couple extra paragraphs to enumerate. Jamie's covered a lot of that on his website.

I think they are peerless instruments, but I don't think "if the mandolins are any good" is what this thread is really meant to be about.

I don't like the tone of this thread and the balance of emotional content to the heart of the matter. I'd vastly prefer to see something like this solved with an extra helping of impartiality and cold logic.. but that's really not the job of a message board or a court of public opinion.

[Darryl Wolfe]

I am a bit reluctant to add to this conversation, but I do have some relevent comments.

I too offer parts and such for mandolins and guitars and like some luthiers have an extremely difficult time delivering. Luckily for me they are not high dollar instruments with people getting giddy in excitement awaiting the product. But when somebody needs or wants something, there is not that much difference.

Ken Walthams comments are the most relevent here. If you are in "business" put in a good hard days work and the products will complete themselves.

Like Spruce, I do not take funds up front and most of the time I deliver the product first. If I do get a check in the mail for something, I feel more compelled to complete it. I do not cash that check until I have mailed the product. I get all kinds of checks that become too old to cash also.

But this situation is because I have a full time job, a family, many other things come first and lastly my desire to build things is waning because I have proven to myself that I can do it.

The challenge is gone.

So in short, a business is a business and should be treated as such. If it is a hobby, then you can invent whatever excuses you wish, but you cannot treat them both the same with deposits and promises.

[nickster60]

Ken
Hit it on the nose put your nose to the grind stone and get to work.

It is true in violin world that violins and bows are sent out with out on a trial basis. But usually it is my experience you have to know luthier to get that treatment. There has to be some trust between you and the luthier. I have had bows sent on trial from some of the big houses but they always get your credit card number.

Plus if you are good violinist you don't want stick it to the luthiers most know each other and word will spread fast. It would then be difficult to get your violin and bows serviced. You also wouldn't get the inside track on really good instrument or bows. The best stuff never sees the light off day. You have to know someone or you don't get a chance at it.

[mandopete]

All of this reminds of the reason why I purchased my last instrument (a guitar) from a store.

On the subject of deposits, the store where I purchased the guitar allowed me to take it home (along with another for comparison) without leaving a deposit. I suppose it may have been the case since I know this store pretty well, but I suspect the same courtesy would be extended from a builder if you knew them. In fact now that I think about it I know a builder that let me take a mandolin he had already built on approval.

~o)

[JeffD]

I don't like the tone of this thread .

Amen

[mandopete]

I'm curious (seriously) - what do you think the "tone" of this thread is?

[deepmountain]

In the interest of bringing more clarity to this discussion and as Dan Beimborn has weighed in, let me just say that Dan posted on the Cafe on Oct. 5, 2006 that he had played a Wiens at Wintergrass—2005 and "ordered one shortly after that."

I placed my deposit and order with Jamie in Feb. '04, a year before that. Imagine what it felt like when Dan came on the Cafe again with pictures of his new Wiens in '07 while the rest of us on the list couldn't get any idea from Jamie when we might expect delivery.

And again, it's not so much that the wait is long. It was the lack of honesty about the length of the wait and lack of communication and being treated badly when one asks for communication. Of course Dan is a happy Wiens customer. I would hope that he might understand why others aren't.

Jim

(I received a written contract dated April 30, '04, which acknowledges receipt of the deposit in Feb.—just to clarify dates in my previous post.)

[Tom Haywood]

One of the subtle lessons here is that you may discover you have a real talent for doing something, you find a real joy in doing it and making it available to others, and fate takes you into the business of making a living doing it. Then, down the road, you begin to see that you really don't have the "businessman" personality. It shows up as an inability to always place the customers' concerns first, no matter how unreasonable they seem. It also shows up in many businesses as promising top quality work, requiring substantial deposits and then spending the money on something else (including mollifying some other customer), and then not getting around to doing the work until forced by some outside pressure. This can lead to real trouble. It leads to some difficult decisions and changes of direction. I don't know Mr. Wiens, but he has stated here that he is an artist, not a businessman. He has expressed an intuitive understanding that he needs to change his business model. For him, not taking deposits may be the best thing he ever does to continue his passion. I would add that all buyers, no matter their other motivations, see a sale as a business transaction that includes a variety of expectations. I think, too, that almost all instrument buyers are artists themselves, and so can be difficult to deal with.

[Chris Biorkman]

The builder has no one to blame for the tone of this thread but himself. I actually think it's been pretty civil.

[AlanN]

Interesting indeed.

And I've seen far more 'Thanks for letting this thread continue' remarks than 'I don't like the tone' remarks.

[Scotti Adams]

In the interest of bringing more clarity to this discussion and as Dan Beimborn has weighed in, let me just say that Dan posted on the Cafe on Oct. 5, 2006 that he had played a Wiens at Wintergrass—2005 and "ordered one shortly after that."

I placed my deposit and order with Jamie in Feb. '04, a year before that. Imagine what it felt like when Dan came on the Cafe again with pictures of his new Wiens in '07 while the rest of us on the list couldn't get any idea from Jamie when we might expect delivery.

And again, it's not so much that the wait is long. It was the lack of honesty about the length of the wait and lack of communication and being treated badly when one asks for communication. Of course Dan is a happy Wiens customer. I would hope that he might understand why others aren't.

Jim

(I received a written contract dated April 30, '04, which acknowledges receipt of the deposit in Feb.—just to clarify dates in my previous post.)

This was exactly my point I made back way back in post #74.

As far as the tone of this thread goes. I see absolutely no tone what so ever. Just disgruntled Wiens and would be Wiens owners. People just telling their tales..stories..misfortunes. There is even alot heartfelt statements on how to avoid this kind of mess. How to be a businessman vs an Artist. We all know theres been other threads that have went further south than this one. Unfortunantly this incident happened for whatever reason its a story that neesds to be told..even if feelings..reputations etc get scarred. The only name calling was in the OP...taken out of context...only 2 people know for sure. Theres a reason this thread has been allowed to continue. Suck it up. For the very most part posters have swayed away from slander..name calling ..whatever...Good taste has prevailed over something that has left a bad taste in alot of mouths. It could be worse.

[G. Fisher]

Very well stated Scotti. I think your summary is an accurate account of the thread.

[journeybear]

I agree - I think this discussion has been mostly civil, and judging from the number of posts and knowing how passionately most members feel about such issues, it's commendable how most posters have kept their feelings in check.

I can't speak from personal experience on this issue, though of course I have endured similar experiences in other areas, and most facets of this matter have been explored much more fully by others compared to anything I could contibute. But there is one aspect that I feel has not been addressed:


Another time I sent more $ at his request because he said he needed a down payment on a house. In all, he had $5000 of my money for over 4 years.

How could a builder go to a client asking for money for something like that? Non-building issues are the builder's concern, not the customer's! Hopefully he's not still living at his parent's house - resophil's story includes a visit in 2001 - but I wonder if he's actually building instruments as his sole means of support, or doing it in his spare time. It just seems to be taking far too long, when compared with the other builders' time frames mentioned here, and seems his time is disproportionally devoted to other uses.

Not the central issue, of course, but I can't help wondering, as this would certainly impact completion and delivery dates. And then there's the whole borrowing from Walt to pay Jim deal ... :disbelief:

[Cornelius Morris]

I also have a mandolin on order from Jamie Wiens, and have paid him a significant amount of money already. He has always been pleasant and not abusive in my contacts with him, and he has sent me photographs of the mandolin under construction. I haven't yet asked him for an estimated date of completion--and this is not to criticize those who have--although he's a little more than a year past what he estimated when I signed on. Just my experience so far, and not an evaluation in any way on anyone else's dealings with Wiens. And this is also not to question the understandable concern of those who believe that their instrument may have been set aside while another (later) customer's was finished.

What bothers me is that the OP (MandoCowboy) presented the web site, and quoted from it, as if it were independent from himself:

"Wiens Mandolins has some serious issues as this website declares

http://www.custominstrumentwatchdog.com/

Jamie Wiens labled as a "Poster Child" for being unscrupulous.

Check it out."

Kathryn Stark (post #71) made clear that the site in question was in fact set up by the OP, who, as others have pointed out, has several times tried to sell, through the Mandolin Cafe Classifieds, his spot in Wiens' production line, while suppressing the issues concerning it. I believe that the OP should have made very clear at the outset, whatever the merits of the complaints, that the web site in question was his own.

[Links]

Dittos to those remarks regarding the "civil" tone to this thread. I think this thread has been a much needed wake-up call to Mr. Wiens and anyone else who might have a similar business model. It has also served to illustrate that the vast majority of luthiers take their work seriously and approach it is a manner in which they can be proud.

Ken Walthan, I think hit the nail on the head regarding getting your fanny out of bed and getting to work. In an earlier post I mentioned that much of what luthiers do is of an artistic nature (I do consider them artists), while a considerable part is production work. Production work requires attention to detail, but not using all of your artists mental skills. To do any of it first requires getting up and getting going!

I do not completely understand why making a mandolin closer to Loar specifications, particularly after you have done a numer of them, would require that much more time, but will defer to Dan B. on that matter.

Maybe the best part of this thread is that Mr. Wiens reputation can be salvaged. I will take a huge dose of good will and a lot of hard work. I do not know his age, but it sounds like he is young enough to get this behind him and use it as a learning experience. Of course, the first part of that is recognizing that there is a problem and you are part of it! Hopefully, he will tale ownership and do that!

[billhay4]

Re Tommando's comments about not taking deposits:
While this may relieve certain problems created by the luthier's failure to complete instruments on time, it creates another problem: buyer's who fail to complete a deal when the mandolin is finished because their own "circumstances" have changed and they have no money invested in the deal.
It's a problem either way as I see it. The only real solution is to build instruments and sell them when they are finished. First come, first served.
This is a good model IMHO for a small builder, but, of course, no large manufacturing enterprise works this way unless they control both making and selling. If they don't, they have to take orders and money up front.
Still, were I a professional builder instead of the occasional amateur that I am, I think I'd make what I want and sell it when I finished the instruments.
None of this really has much to do with Mr. Wiens' problems and I'll refrain from commenting on those.
Bill

[Chris Biorkman]

Cornelius: are you sure those pics aren't the same ones he's been sending to Walt and Jim?

[Bertram Henze]

Cornelius: are you sure those pics aren't the same ones he's been sending to Walt and Jim?

:)) I am not sure if we should accumulate more doubt than evidence forces us to. I suppose a customer should recognize if a photo resembles his personal specifications. The more probable thing would be, IMHO, that this builder tends to start many instruments but has trouble finishing them (80/20 rule?), which would produce genuine individual pictures, just not the real thing.

[Omer]

I agree with danb and JeffD, the length and tone of this thread is unsettling.

[catmandu2]

I agree with danb and JeffD, the length and tone of this thread is unsettling.

IMO, the topic is unsettling. Considering this, the tone has been amazingly civil.

[Chris Biorkman]

I agree with danb and JeffD, the length and tone of this thread is unsettling.

You might feel differently if you were the one who was out five grand.

[goose 2]

I ordered a Gilchrist back in 1999 or 2000. It arrived 4 1/2 years after I placed the order which was spot on when I was told it would be delivered.
Maybe Steve Gilchrist does not consider himself an "artist" but that mandolin was a work of art. My point is that you can get the absolute highest quality in an instrument as well as assurance that it will be delivered when promised. You just need to select your builder carefully.

[Kirk Albrecht]

Maybe we're at a place where we can agree on a few things that go beyond the realm of speculation or mere opinion in this topic -

1. Walt and Jim have not had a good experience in ordering a mandolin from Jamie Wiens, including lots of negative communication, and apparent use of deposits / funds for applications other than their build.
2. other people who have placed orders with Jamie have a mixed experience - some positive, some not
3. Jamie's business practices need to reflect transparency and integrity on a level recognized not just in the mandolin building community but in the world of craftspeople as a whole.
4. there are lots of risks for both client and builder when placing a custom order.
5. the use of a written contract is sound practice when money is changing hands.
6. Jamie's work as a mandolin luthier is excellent.
7. we should never be about sullying anyone's reputation, but in service to this community, fair representation of bad experiences can be good for all.
8. whatever is the cause of Jamie's long delays and quirky dealings with finances should be resolved as soon as possible to allow him freedom to pursue his craft and build/maintain a solid reputation, as most builders who frequent this board do.

I am afraid if we keep beating this horse it will turn into something we don't want. I do think the tone of the thread has been pretty amazing, given what I have experienced over the years on other music forums!

I continue to value this place and hold it in the highest regard. Kudos to Scott and the admins for their excellent work.

[Chuck Naill]

banging on an Epi MM-20 for 25 years

Was that a custom built Epiphone MM-20? How long did you have to wait? :grin:

My little Eastman is looking better everyday. Perhaps people won't be so quick to say buy local anymore. :cool:

[Scotti Adams]

' Nuff Said??

I think so. Dont think anything else can be said. Lessons learned on all fronts.

Peace

[Don Grieser]

goose 2, that was exactly the same experience I had ordering my Gilchrist in 1998. Except my wait was only 18 months--delivered in Oct 1999. I guess we know when the Gilchrist boom happened. I know of at least 6 people who played mine at festivals and ordered one. It's one of those.

[mdlorenz]

I placed my deposit and order with Jamie in Feb. '04, a year before that. Imagine what it felt like when Dan came on the Cafe again with pictures of his new Wiens in '07 while the rest of us on the list couldn't get any idea from Jamie when we might expect delivery.

Jim
(I received a written contract dated April 30, '04, which acknowledges receipt of the deposit in Feb.—just to clarify dates in my previous post.)

Maybe there were extenuating circumstances, but maybe not. Without explanation this would infuriate me.

[JeffD]

What bothers me is that the OP (MandoCowboy) presented the web site, and quoted from it, as if it were independent from himself:

I believe that the OP should have made very clear at the outset, whatever the merits of the complaints, that the web site in question was his own.

Exactly. This cannot be as charitably considered as can perhaps sloppy business practices and missed deadlines.

[yankees1]

' Nuff Said??

I think so. Dont think anything else can be said. Lessons learned on all fronts.

Peace DITTO ! Nuff said! Time to move on!

[Mark Walker]

I've read all six (at this point) pages of this topic, and see a number of valid observations on both sides of the coin. I think Kirk in post #143 summed everything up nicely.

I've had two custom-built mandolins by the same luthier. During the construction of the second one, he was bitten on the hand by a brown recluse spider, and very nearly lost the use of that hand. This obviously delayed the completion of my mandolin by a number of months. The luthier kept me appraised of the medical attention and progress he was making, and when his hand was healed to the point where he felt confident continuing with the build, he let me know. Honest and open communication (and a downright friendly rapport by both parties, at least in my case) goes a long way.

Regardless, there are many valid observations and learning experiences shared in what I think to be an admirably civil manner by many of my Cafe' colleagues.

Thanks to Scott and the moderators for letting this continue for 150+ posts.

[Kirk Albrecht]

Was that a custom built Epiphone MM-20? How long did you have to wait? :grin:

My little Eastman is looking better everyday. Perhaps people won't be so quick to say buy local anymore. :cool:

:))
This was my wife's wedding present to me in 1983 with no knowledge of mandolins, only that I wanted on after hearing Bill Monroe (how may other people did the same thing??). Delivered on our wedding night!

It has been "customized" over the years - neck slightly warped, pickguard broken off by an over-zealous 4 year old seeing what it sounded like! But it's solid woods and sounds OK.

[danb]

Maybe there were extenuating circumstances, but maybe not. Without explanation this would infuriate me.

A lot of what went into my own build (one of the extenuating circumstances) was pretty public here, but you'd really need to have your "fanatic" ears on to have seen it all or understand it. I'll try to make a little sense of it here.

There was a huge amount of research done to learn and compile all the information we could on Loars. A lot of this unfolded very publically in the 'Loar picture of the Day" thread, just check the boards in that timeframe. Also take a look at what is in the mandolin archive- I put in a ton of research on details, and Jamie & I both got a lot of help from other members of the board here and wider mandolin community in the process. Check how many of my near 5000 posts relate to vintage mandolins and you'll get an idea of the time I put in for reasearch.

I was thinking the results would benefit the rest of the folks on Jamie's list, but I also didn't think that I was horning in and causing years to be added to the clock. I wanted to document Loars as thoroughly as possible for the benefit of other builders too. The archive and my posts here on the subject are my passion, and represent years of my life.

So.. extenuating circumstance #1 is this- I believe Jamie was infected by the passion I and others had for this, and it was firing his creative juices at a time of much darkness for him. The "perfect storm" of Loar passion was right at it's peak when all of this went down. Neither of us put a gun to the other's head, and I paid no "line jump fee" or any of the other hogwash I've heard suggested. He doesn't make just one at a time either, they progress together in logical steps.

There were other extenuating circumstances that had more of an impact on his build time. They have been hinted at here- Jamie had them in his personal life both before and after my build completed. None of them should be dragged any further through the mud than they already have been.

I hope the story comes to a satisfying end for all.

[journeybear]

DITTO ! Nuff said! Time to move on!

For goodness' sake, if you want to move on, move on. Same goes for anyone else. If someone has something to say, let them say it. I'm not saying this is the place to just vent, but people obviously are not done. When they are, the thread will wither, as is the nature of these things. Meanwhile, there are a few other threads in progress to which you may redirect your attention.

[Scott Tichenor]

A point of clarification.

The reason I opened this thread was to represent the interests of those who have paid large sums or paid in full, have been paid in full for years and have not been give any indication of a finish date. Some of those on top of that insult have received harsh and nasty responses--if they were lucky enough to receive any communication at all--when they've asked for a status update, and not just those on that web site. I've had plenty of these forwarded to me and they're parked in my GMail archive.

I don't endorse "gotcha" web sites that started this thread, and trying to sell a spot on that wait list was inappropriate in itself. This is not about the length of time to build--quality instruments can be a complex problem. It's not about the cost or down payments. It's about exceedingly rude behavior and customer service that qualifies for nightmare status and a flippant attitude from the person that now has your money. I've been seeing evidence of the problem here for several years and this situation needs to be rectified. Attempts to redirect the customer back to the party they're purchasing from is always the appropriate response, but as I've already stated, that's a failed process here.

The truth is, there are still customers waiting who are now afraid to raise their voice for fear of retribution. Someone explain to me how you defend that?

That some of you are uncomfortable with this discussion, that's unfortunate. Situations that are clearly so wrong and unlawful still exist, and I see no road ahead where this is going to be resolved, nor a willingness on the builder's part to rectify the situation.

That's what makes me uncomfortable.

[Chris Biorkman]

For goodness' sake, if you want to move on, move on. Same goes for anyone else. If someone has something to say, let them say it. I'm not saying this is the place to just vent, but people obviously are not done. When they are, the thread will wither, as is the nature of these things. Meanwhile, there are a few other threads in progress to which you may redirect you attention.

I totally agree. What right does anyone have, aside from the moderators, to decide when this conversation has run it's course. If you don't like the topic of this thread, go post on another and leave the rest of us to our discussion.

That's about the third time someone has tried to end the conversation and I think it's pretty annoying.

This thread is very important because it will ultimately prevent people from getting ripped off in all liklihood.

[journeybear]

Well put, Scott, and thanks for reminding all of us why this thread has been allowed to persist, and why it is so important. This issue strikes a very poignant chord in a great many members' hearts. That said, it's worth noting that it's all too common for us to go off on tangents, and it's good to get "snapped back" from time to time. I was trying to point out (what seemed obvious to me) that people are not done discussing this yet, and a call for posters to stop - essentially, telling us to shut up - was premature and insensitive. Thanks again for allowing this discussion to continue, and I do hope people will feel the support and sympathy they need to contribute, and also that in so doing someone is able to come up with a solution.

[AlanN]

Clearly, discovery is still underway, with more information coming out about this guy and his practices, and the *larger than heretofore known* number of victims. Rather than some gruesome accident scene gawking, this thread can only shed light on the damage, and help some future buyer in the mandolin consignment decision process.

I agree. Don't read it if you don't want to, but surely don't proselytize.

[mandopete]

A point of clarification.

The truth is, there are still customers waiting who are now afraid to raise their voice for fear of more of retribution. Someone explain to me how you defend that?



Retribution in what way? Can you explain further Scott?

This is pretty ugly.

[fatt-dad]

From the words of Scott, I have a real bad feeling in the pit of my stomach and I'm not involved. I just know how I feel in these sorts of confrontation and just how far I go to avoid this sort of stuff. It's really sad. . .

f-d

[Stephen Perry]

I hesitate to jump in. But. A neutral party engaged by mutual agreement of the maker and his clients might well be able to aid in negotiating a settlement with respect to the outstanding custom orders. I would include a repayment schedule for those seeking return of funds and a reasonable production schedule for outstanding instruments. Such a course might take the pressure off all parties a bit and provide a vehicle for non-emotional communications.

That general type of structure works reasonably well, but only if the participants are willing to work within that structure.

The alternative seems to be fighting for scraps, or fawning and begging for instruments. Seems quite unsavory. I'm sure there's an equitable solution to the situation, even if it involves some compromise. I'm also not sure all the participants would go along with it, but it might be worth a try.

Please, no flames.

[8ch(pl)]

Could there be a danger that other Canadian builders will lose out because a customer won't chance a cross border new mandolin commission? The name on the headstock needs to be regarded, not being true to one's word diminishes that name, no matter what the quality of the product. The quality of the person diminishes when they answer a customer's concerns with scorn and disrespect.

[hank]

deleted because this fire has enough fuel.

[Chris Biorkman]

Me too.

[Links]

Chris & Journeybear - you both expressed my opinion exactly regarding ending this thread - thanks!

Great explanation Scott! Because Scott and other moderators run a tight ship, threads rarely get out of control here. I don't always agree with Scott and have been mildly chastised a couple of times (when I thought I was right), and probably will again, but Scott tends to nip things in the bud if he thinks they are going off in the wrong direction. Kudos all the way around!

[Randy Smith]

I agree with danb and JeffD, the length and tone of this thread is unsettling.


No one can argue your feeling that the tone is "unsettling" since you believe it. I have no reason to think you aren't completely honest and have no way of disproving you. Myself, I'm comfortable with this tone and just don't hear the lynch mob that someone referred to dozens of postings earlier. I appreciate very much Scott's allowing us to have this conversation, which is as much a continuation of an ongoing discussion as much as the thread is really new itself.

And because it's a continuation, the thread is a long. That's fine. How much longer it will go on I don't know. Whether it will be the last discussion of this matter I don't know. But I'll keep reading for now.

[Bob Borzelleri]

Wow. I go to Vegas for a three day woodturning class and all hell breaks loose. :disbelief:

After seven pages, it appears to me that the old axiom is still true, "Where a person stands on an issue depends on where they sit."

People who have seen the positive side of a Weins Mandolin experience see things one way and people who have seen the other side have a totally different story to tell.

Then there are people who have no direct experience with Weins but who have opinions on artistry, patience, exclusivity and other concepts that would appear to serve to support Mr. Weins and the manner of behavior that is under discussion. There are also people who are outraged at the notion that someone (artist or not) might be able to take money from some people and not deliver the promised product.

I think that anyone with any experience with custom built items knows a couple of things right out of the box; 1) they are usually expensive and 2) they are not generally sitting on a shelf waiting for you to pick them up.

The former issue is a given and the latter is typically due to real factors involving previous orders, availability of materials and that which reasonable people should reasonably expect from a craftsperson who is working in good faith to actually get contracted work done.

Should I decide to part with several thousand dollars for a single instrument, I will expect that the builder work in good faith to deliver what he/she can while making the sort of effort that real working people make every day of their lives. My desire to obtain a particular instrument should not be construed by the builder as license to simply not work on my instrument because he/she feels that my desire gives them the ability to do so.

I once created a short list of builders who I would consider contracting with for my "once and for all":confused: mandolin. Weins was on the list. The list is now a bit lighter.

Scott hit the nail smack on the head; consider this a countersink.

[goose 2]

Don-
Yep that was the Gilchrist boom. If memory serves me, I called Dexter in '99 and there was a 2 1/2 wait at about 9k for the instrument. I thought that was too long to wait and kinda expensive. When I called back a year or so later it was 4 1/2 year wait and 10k, so I placed an order. Shows how much I know.

[R. Kane]

I have some family history that parallels this sad story. I thought I recognized the characteristic denial from the quotes from the OP's website (however suspect) and JW's own post, and DB alluded to it. If this is the case, let's hope that those with influence in JW's life can work with him to recognize and address it, while the rest of us can let JW know that we value his skills and his passion to create fine mandolins, and that we hope that he can climb out of the hole. Without asking you all to join hands and sing Kumbaya, let's recognize that deep down, JW probably isn't all that happy with himself, and has the ability to change. He certainly isn't alone in this - everyone has problems, some of which leak out from personal to business life. I'm not ready to pay to get on his list, but may be one day. That's all I can offer, but I'll bet that there are some others that would, too.

IMO, this has been a worthwhile MC thread. We have learned much from wise people here. I feel worst for those who have been or are now innocently entangled, and hope that they are made whole. And even if I am wrong in my deduction, JW can still use our positive thoughts. My apologies for the preachy overtones, but I've seen the movie. Keep talking, and smoke 'em if you've got 'em.

[jim_n_virginia]

What a unfortunate and sad mess all around ... but when the dust settles I think I have to sympathize with those who are out $5 and $7K. That's a LOT of money for most people including me ESPECIALLY in these troubling economic times.

I understand about not crowding an artist and letting them finish their work even through a long wait time. Mandolins are not the only product there are long wait times. Many things handmade you have to wait for. I have waited 2 years just for custom handmade gun leather!

The bottom line (to me anyway's) is a man is only as good as his word. IF you take someone's deposit and you tell them their instrument will be done in an approximate time and it is not done by that time integrity insists that you contact that person and explain WHY it is not being finished on or about the agreed upon time. And you should have a REALLY good reason not something vague like ... "I was going through a rough time"

I can almost understand having a little understanding and patience with maybe like 3 months over due ... or 6 months. But a YEAR? 2 YEARS?

COME ON! Being an artist does not excuse you from honoring your word.

Thanks Scott for allowing the thread to continue it shows that you are banking that Cafe members will do the right thing.

As as far as some not liking the tone I was thinking to myself that this thread has been amazingly responsible.

I hope things get settled soon!

[GVD]

Chris & Journeybear - you both expressed my opinion exactly regarding ending this thread - thanks!

I agree with them and you 100%. If I don't like the tone (what ever that means) of a thread I quit reading it. I wasn't planning on posting to this thread but I've gotten so sick of hearing JW's inane "artist" argument bandied about I can't sit on the sidelines anymore.

In the first place he's not an artist. If he quit copying Loars and created a totally new design from his imagination then he might possibly be considered an artist. Until he does that he's a craftsman/artisan but not an artist.

In the second place even if he was an artist what license would that give him to take peoples money, not produce the work he promised to do, then treat his customers so rudely? Most of my friends are actual working artists. They work hard to produce the work they are contracted to do in an expeditious manner. Yes sometimes deadlines slip but none of the sculptors or painters I know berate their customers when it happens. To act like it's somehow all right to excuse poor behavior because someone claims he's an artist is a slap in the face to all the honest hard working real artist out there.


Retribution in what way? Can you explain further Scott?

You're kidding right? Kissing your deposit good bye would seem to be the first thing that would happen given this guys M.O.

[Glassweb]

"So in short, a business is a business and should be treated as such. If it is a hobby, then you can invent whatever excuses you wish, but you cannot treat them both the same with deposits and promises." (Quote/Darryl Wolfe)

So there you have it... said by someone who's been on the mandolin scene for a long time and knows the score.

[Jeff Harvey]

As a business owner for 29yrs, i must say integrity and good reputation is everything. I think we all know that builders sometimes dont meet their estimated completion dates. But that never warrants bad customer treatment no matter how talented they are. People will eventually run out of patience and the builder will have a bad reputation, which is very difficult to reverse. I learned quickly the value of character, integrity and reputation. That is why I have survived 29yrs!

[Dusty]

With over 13.000 views and 170+ replies I'd say the Cafe has provided an important forum of discussion , and, has been an unbiased silent observer of the real and perceived issues in this thread. Knowledge is power and thus, the Cafe has once again provided a service to the mandolin community by allowing varied opinions and discussion. Hopefully, all will work out for everyone and potential customers will be well informed, and thus, more able to make their buying decisions whether pro or con. Thank you Mandolin Cafe for your service and efforts.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Ultimately - wouldn't we all love to hear that Jamie Wiens has got his act back together & is again making superb instruments,on time & on cost ?. There's been enough said re.the original complaints,but i do get a strong feeling that we'd all love to see JW back on course as a valuable builder. JW hasn't helped himself much in this,& i feel sorry for that. Personally i'm REALLY PO'd by him because he's (almost) taken himself out of Mandolin building re.his reputation. I'd feel exactly the same way if any other builder of note 'threw a wobbler' & began getting antsy re.their building
practices.
Let's be honest & face the facts (as far as i see them),we WANT JW's instruments !. We want them along with the instruments of all the other great builders,but not on his current terms & conditions. How would we feel if we'd individually been saving for our 'dream instrument',only to find that our prefered builder had suddenly thrown all his toys out of his pram & was making inordinate demands re.time /cash etc. - i for one would feel outraged !.That's exactly how i feel re.JW at this point. The man is a valuable resource for superb instruments,who in the past has had our respect because he earned it. It's time for him to stop behaving a bit like a spoiled child,cut the excuses & do what he does best (when he does it !),building great instruments. Nobody really wants to see him disappear. It's a bit like when something that we value & enjoy goes wrong & doesn't work properly. We don't want to trash it,simply get it back to working properly again - that's how i personally feel re.Mr Wiens. Let's hope it's sooner rather than later,
Ivan ~:>

[Bertram Henze]

Knowledge is power and thus, the Cafe has once again provided a service to the mandolin community by allowing varied opinions and discussion. ... Thank you Mandolin Cafe for your service and efforts.

Second that.
We are used to going to the Cafe like to a sanctuary, away from the harsh world out there, comfortably chatting about harmless things like string change and what pick to use; thus many have felt bad about the harsh world suddenly washing around their feet in this thread. But it was not in vain. The Cafe proved to be a place not only to hide in and talk in hushed voices about "you know who", but to enable each of us to walk out there a better informed person, and not at each other's cost but to each other's advantage.

[Jim DeSalvio]

I have been reading this over the last 2 days. I feel for those caught up in this web. I have experience with 2 builds. One, with Ken Ratcliff, who built me a wonderful "Econo Mando". Great experience, and delivered on time. My favorite mandolin. Thanks Cafe for guiding me to him.

I might be caught up in a web of my own, with a guitar build. I have $500.00 invested with a builder that I would not consider to be big time, but might get there someday. I started this at the end of 2006. The guitar is way past due, but I have not been pressing the issue, and there has been no hint of negative communications in any way. At this point, I am very happy to sit back and wait. Not sure how I would feel if I had paid it off, and was left sitting.

Very interesting reading. It has taught me to look before you leap.

[mando_dan]

Wow, this has been a very interesting thread on many levels.

A small point- the board brings incredible leverage as it is THE place for mandolin folks to meet and chat. Many years ago I had a problem with an online seller that I simply could not resolve. By posting my experience here as clearly and objectively as I could, I was able to finally get the seller's attention (they had ceased all communication with me) and get the matter resolved the matter satisfactorily resolved (I got the mandolin I had paid for). Without the board, I don't think this would have happened less the judicial system be brought to into play which would have a wasted effort due to the meager cost of the instrument. Thank you mandolin cafe for creating a forum on which problems like these can be brought into the public domain.

For those queasy about the thread, I see it as sunlight which tends to expose the good and bad on both sides of any dispute. And that's a good thing for all involved. Hopefully the dispute is fairly settled and we can all take something away from the discussion be we builders, prospective buyers, or simply the interested mandolin community.

[AlanN]

And to join the chorus, thanks to Scott for his support of Truth, Justice and the Mandolin Way! If we here knew (and I don't) all of the fires he has fought on our behalf behind the scenes, I think we'd all be flabbergasted.

It's very clear: He tunes because he cares! :mandosmiley:

[G. Fisher]

After reading the last post from Scott my question is. If he has deposits and additional payments and in some cases full payment. Where is the money and why can't he refund those who have asked for thier money returned?

[Stephen Perry]

Again, pardon my intrusion. I have no dog in this fight.

There's a good possibility of an equitable way out.

Get JW and the buyers onboard
Get an intermediary.
Get some help for JW in organization and planning.

Some people simply get lost and don't handle it well. I don't know whether that's the case here. At such times, applying pressure simply hardens the situation. Generally an understanding and helping hand proves very useful. The roles:

1. Intermediary for communications, to get the emotion out
2. Someone to assist in organization and planning
3. Someone to put together a plan that all or most can agree to.

This role is often provided by bankruptcy trustees or negotiated by attorneys. That's a rough road. No reason a single friendly and cognizant individual located near JW couldn't do it.

Perhaps quite a few mandolins simply need an organized effort to complete, making the buyers happy. Perhaps remaining payments on those would be sufficient to run JW and provide some, if not all refunds. Perhaps an agreement could be hammered out on % of future payments for completed production mandolins to go to refunds. Essentially, the disappointed are creditors. I am aware of negotiated agreements where all incoming revenues go first to a trustee of some kind, with the revenues being dispersed as agreed.

Regardless, I would rather see an approach made to constructive rebuilding of relationships, business and personal, and resolution via negotiation rather than confrontation. This doesn't always work; some people can get caught up in their own drama and ignore clear proposals and other formal mechanisms. Why most people in disputes each hire their own representative. But here, with a relatively small business and a fairly simple matter, a team of legal experts seems excessive. Perhaps an accountant to handle the books, an attorney to review any agreement, and a bank to create, hold, and distribute the business funds.

If JW is of relatively limited means, this might provide a path to resolving current issues and getting JW on track to having a productive and well controlled business. Once one gets used to a structured working environment, working in a structured manner becomes a habit.

Just some additional thoughts, no flames please. I'm simply looking for a silver lining here, with the outcomes being:

1. A productive and controlled JW business (he really would benefit from a business minded partner!)
2. Satisfaction of existing clients
3. Security and confidence for future clients

The last part might be difficult to arrange. Selling through a trusted intermediary business on consignment could provide a mechanism. But that's for the future. Currently, getting the business in order and existing commitments satisfied seems a very high priority.

The alternative is that one or more of the dissatisfied will elevate the dispute to the next level. Once one starts grabbing for assets, the race is on, with few gaining, most losing. The biggest loss being to the mandolin community.

Please pardon the rant, I just don't see complaints online going anywhere most of the time. Concrete action works better.

Good luck all.

[Scott Tichenor]

You have the answer, Stephen, in a perfect world.

Now make it happen.

Since posting that last night I've received (with pardons to the people who contacted me) two more bizarre sad tales of current customers, both afraid to say anything public for fear of making matters worse for themselves. Honestly, this isn't my fight, so I'd appreciate it if customers of TAFKAJW would simply contact him instead of me with their concerns. Or tell your truth in public so the real story will finally be open for everyone to see.

I'm signing off from this one.

Good luck, you're really going to need it.

To the customers of TAFKAJW: please stop contacting me. I cannot assist.

[mandopete]

Good luck, you're really going to need it.




That doesn't sound good.

:(

[Chuck Naill]

After reading the last post from Scott my question is. If he has deposits and additional payments and in some cases full payment. Where is the money and why can't he refund those who have asked for thier money returned?

I have been curious about this also. As they say, you cannot get blood from a turnip. From the post where more money was requested because of a down payment commitment, that makes me think that some or all of the funds have been invested elsewhere.

I think Steve Perry is spot on and it appears he is offering his legal/mediary services/expertise. The problem is compounded for Steve or anyone if the funds are not present.

[G. Fisher]

You have the answer, Stephen, in a perfect world.

Now make it happen.

Since posting that last night I've received (with pardons to the people who contacted me) two more bizarre sad tales of current customers, both afraid to say anything public for fear of making matters worse for themselves. Honestly, this isn't my fight, so I'd appreciate it if customers of TAFKAJW would simply contact him instead of me with their concerns. Or tell your truth in public so the real story will finally be open for everyone to see.

I'm signing off from this one.

Good luck, you're really going to need it.

To the customers of TAFKAJW: please stop contacting me. I cannot assist.



With this being said. Is there anyone here with a legal background willing to help these people wade through this mess?

[Fretbear]

It's not about the cost or down payments. It's about exceedingly rude behavior and customer service that qualifies for nightmare status and a flippant attitude from the person that now has your money.
It's Mr. T's house and he said it best above. The exact behavior described above, while relished by none, is also amongst the most very dangerous kind that can be tried on with certain people who are far less understanding than your average mandolin enthusiast.
As a proud Canadian I also hope that no one here will be put off from placing orders with our other fine world-class Canadian mandolin luthiers, none of whom I will name here, as they would not want their names in any way associated with this debacle.

"A reputation takes years to build and moments to destroy...."

[Stephen Perry]

Neither can I assist personally. The paths aren't all that clear or difficult, simply takes someone willing spearhead the effort. And a contact other than JW near him. You disappointed buyers, contact each other, set up a teleconference, develop a proposal, select a rational spokesperson, and have that individual set up a face to face conference with JW.

I must say, with the amount of money involved in one of these mandolins, I'd have visited the builder already, in a friendly way. Asked "What can I do? Can I sand this part here?" A little bit of help like that will really build a fire!

But do get organized. Seriously. And I highly suggest working towards a friendly resolution if at all feasible, even if it takes lots of tongue biting, patience, and effort. With each other, as well as JW! Is there no consumer protection agency in Canada?

Either that, or sue the fellow and drive him into the Canadian version of bankruptcy, have the trustee auction off all his stuff, and collect 15 cents on the dollar. Certainly the effectiveness of Internet fora complaints is low. Although this discussion has been pretty good - only one quiet troll worked in that I noticed. Pretty good.

Good luck.

[yankees1]

I totally agree. What right does anyone have, aside from the moderators, to decide when this conversation has run it's course. If you don't like the topic of this thread, go post on another and leave the rest of us to our discussion.

That's about the third time someone has tried to end the conversation and I think it's pretty annoying.

This thread is very important because it will ultimately prevent people from getting ripped off in all liklihood. You know, you are right ! I originally thought the responses were overkill but I was wrong ! It seems that more and more posts involve customers who have had or are experiencing problems with custom orders. This may be one of the most important threads in educating the consumer and business owner. My apology!

[Andrew DeMarco]

Since Canada may lose some business to this tiff, here's all the Canadian luthiers who offer mandolins that I could find:

Sohn Stringed Instruments
http://www.mandolinmaker.com

Apitius Mandolins
http://www.apitiusmandolins.com/

Brian Dean Labraid Mandolins
http://www.labraid.ca/

Nyberg Instruments
http://www.guitarmaker.ca/

Stan Pope
http://www.roadtotheisles.ca/

Larry Stamm
http://www.larrystamm.com/

Peter Cox
http://www.petercox.ca/

Are there more?:mandosmiley:

[MikeEdgerton]

A Google search will now associate the names of these fine luthiers with the person that this thread is discussing. I don't know if that was a good idea.

[Bertram Henze]

Mike Edgerton's point just made me delete this, it's probably one of those ideas the world is better off without.

[Mike Bunting]

Since Canada may lose some business to this tiff, here's all the Canadian luthiers who offer mandolins that I could find:

Sohn Stringed Instruments
http://www.mandolinmaker.com

Apitius Mandolins
http://www.apitiusmandolins.com/

Brian Dean Labraid Mandolins
http://www.labraid.ca/

Nyberg Instruments
http://www.guitarmaker.ca/

Stan Pope
http://www.roadtotheisles.ca/

Larry Stamm
http://www.larrystamm.com/

Peter Cox
http://www.petercox.ca/

Are there more?:mandosmiley:

Michael Heiden
Larry Muth.

[Chris Biorkman]

TAFKAJW? Huh?

[Eric F.]

TAFKAJW? Huh?

As in, The Artist Formally Known As Prince. ...

[journeybear]

TAFKAJW? Huh?

The Artist Formerly Known As Jamie Wiens. Scott's wry wit at its best! :))

[Links]

Steve Perry has excellent points - but (and a big one at that) - Jamie has to be willing to be a part of the solution. To this point, it appears that he is somewhat in denial as to him having any responsibility with the problem. I like Steve's last solution regarding the "wait list" members coming together. That could be difficult, however, if some of them are close to having their mandolins finished. I think that is the "retribution" that Scott was referring to when he mentioned that some on the list feared it.

As an architect (golf course) for 35 years, much of my job has been settling disputes between owners and contractors often involving enough money to buy ten or more of Jamie's mandolins. To settle these disputes, there has to be a clear path much like Steve pointed out. Once the "roles" are defined, it often a relief for the parties involved - particularly the contractor, as he knows what has to be done for their final payment. Of course written contracts are crucial and everything, and I mean everything, needs to be spelled out.

[MikeEdgerton]

TAFKAJW? Huh?

This (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=TAFKAP) might shed some light.

[mtucker]

Quoted from "Spruce:"

"Well then, you'll have to add Mike Kemnitzer, Steve Gilchrist, John Sullivan, John Monteleone, and several others to your feces-list..."

With regard to Steve Gilchrist, I really hope I am misinterpreting your comment. Steve and I had an email agreement. He gave me a delivery date, progress photos of the numbered instrument as he built it, and had it delivered to me two weeks earlier than promised!

He was a delight to work with and has continued to immediately respond to any questions I have had for him in the three and half years since I received the mandolin.

By the way, Steve doesn't refer to himself as an "artist" (although those that have enjoyed his artistry might disagree with him). He, like you, calls himself a "wood butcher."

Mandoblab

Ditto here.

I Ordered my Model 5jr in July, and it's about complete for February delivery. No lists anymore. If you want one, and can come up with the coin to make one of his build slots, then you're good to go.

Steve is a fabulous guy, with a great sense of humor. Regular updates and delighful unprompted progress pics from OZ that show up in my morning inbox. The man is the best!
:mandosmiley:

[djweiss]

..

[pickloser]

There is no practical legal recourse once this amount of money is in the hands of a person who is neither trustworthy nor concerned about even the appearance of trustworthiness. Contracts dealing with just thousands of dollars are only helpful between folks who seek to be clear about what the agreement is and to abide by it. Enforcement of a contract requires time and/or money. To expect someone to volunteer to pursue legal remedies or to arbitrate this matter is overly hopeful, I think. Besides, a judgment or decision can only be usefully enforced when there are assets to seize. I suspect Mr. Weins's attitude would be no different if there were a contract.

He seems unable to act even in his own best interests. Usually, one doesn't have to rely so much on trust and good character if the other person can be expected just to do what is good for business. Perhaps TAFKAJW really does believe his "art" gives him license to take payment without triggering obligation. Perhaps, he really believes his unwashed common garden variety customers should patiently and indefinitely wait and count themselves lucky, while he takes time to pursue other "passions" and to produce instruments for more important, higher-profile customers. But, in furtherance of only his own agenda, he should at least note that most of the rest of us don't see it that way and will not knowingly deal with him once we know he has little regard for the legitimate expectations of others.

Just my opinion.

[Stephen Perry]

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/C-46/page-7.html#anchorbo-ga:l_X-gb:s_380

http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/oca-bc.nsf/eng/h_ca02349.html

For an individual, initially pursuing the issue through the government consumer affairs entity often proves useful. I end up doing this about once a year. Of course, my complaints are crisp, focused, detail the facts, grounds for dissatisfaction, and what exactly I want. I also include all relevant documentation, annotated, dated, numbered, and appropriately referenced in my complaint. This isn't any particular trouble.

The same type of information - perhaps even the same complaint - may well serve to interest a local district attorney. A quick search turns up criminal acts associated with running a business, taking money, and not delivering. I do not know what kind of equitable powers the judicial system in Canada offers, but I would expect that compensation to victims is in there somewhere.

I strongly suggest moving rapidly as individuals in as friendly a manner as possible, as a group (to avoid "retribution"), or if neither of those options are viable, then walking away and forgetting about it. For a private solution, an attorney usually knows what to do. I searched and there are indeed attorneys in BC.

In the alternative, I imagine that the simultaneous arrival of a number of very well documented complaints at the consumer protection agency, preferably at the desk of someone expecting them, might trigger at least some action. How that would be received on JW's part remains a question. Would he really fight everyone including the government?

If that's not to everyone's taste, then shipping off a number of well documents complaints to the DA or equivalent might trigger action. Again, the response might not be ideal, but law enforcement generally does get a response.

If nobody involved has 1) begun formal attempts at resolution from the private side, 2) filed a complaint with the consumer protection agency, 3) filed a complaint with law enforcement, or 4) gone for a friendly visit, then I have to question their seriousness in gaining a resolution.

I understand that it's easier to avoid confrontation, difficult to make friends with difficult people, hard to put together good complaints, and very very easy to make websites, complain online, and generally huff and puff. Huff and puff won't do it.

Gather evidence from the demonstrable facts at hand (have a canceled check for payment?), evaluate the options (the real options, not the whining online options), and execute.

I have no interest in this matter and do not wish to be formally involved.

[Spruce]

Yikes... :(

[G. Fisher]

I strongly suggest moving rapidly as individuals in as friendly a manner as possible, as a group (to avoid "retribution"), or if neither of those options are viable, then walking away and forgetting about it. For a private solution, an attorney usually knows what to do. I searched and there are indeed attorneys in BC.




If nobody involved has 1) begun formal attempts at resolution from the private side, 2) filed a complaint with the consumer protection agency, 3) filed a complaint with law enforcement, or 4) gone for a friendly visit, then I have to question their seriousness in gaining a resolution.


Gather evidence from the demonstrable facts at hand (have a canceled check for payment?), evaluate the options (the real options, not the whining online options), and execute.

I have no interest in this matter and do not wish to be formally involved.



Walk away from thousands of dollars paid ??:confused::confused:

It's seems as though most involved tried private resolution only to recieve nasty responses.

To characterize them as whiners is unfair in my opinion.

[250sc]

This is much like the issue with Ron Oats who makes electric mandolins. He has been evading legal actions for years now. To the best of my knowledge he owes lots of people money/instruments but keeps one step ahead of everyone dispite orders to appear in court.

Good luck guys.

[Spruce]

So, Spruce. Would you send him wood on spec without payment in advance?

Jamie is a friend, and it saddens me deeply to see this sort of thing happen in our community...

As far as talent goes, he's as good as it gets...

I can only hope he uses those talents to make everything right again....
And I think he will...

[Links]

Walk away from thousands of dollars paid ??:confused::confused:

It's seems as though most involved tried private resolution only to recieve nasty responses.

To characterize them as whiners is unfair in my opinion.

Greg - I may be wrong, but I don't think Stephen meant to refer to folks that have lost (or may lose) and nice chunk of money as "whiners". To me it meant that if you are not willing to take some concrete action, "whining" on line is not going to do any good. To this point in the thread, I have not gotten the impression that any of the affected parties are "whining", and not to put words in Stephens mouth, but I have not gotten the impression that he thinks so either.

An earlier poster questioned whether contracts make any difference with someone who chooses to ignore them. He is certainly correct that contracts are not and "end all" to problems like this, but are extremely valuable when problems go beyond the personal level and jump into the realm of the legal system.

[8ch(pl)]

In Canada we have the Better Business Bureau. here is the URL for the one in British Columbia:

http://gateway.cotr.bc.ca/BritishColumbia/BBBMainBC.asp

[CES]

Man...I stopped reading at page 5 and posted a frowny face, but just couldn't stop watching the wreckage...

I've changed the background of my desktop...unfortunately, electrical tape or Bill's method (ie gouging) wouldn't have positively effected my laptop's screen :grin: .

I have no dog in the fight (my "nicest" mando is a Flatiron pancake, for Pete's sake), but have to say that my values are best reflected by Ken and Jim. I'm a country boy raised on a farm by a horse trainer/football coach (dad) and Marine Raider from WWII (GF) as my most prominent male role models. Integrity and my word mean everything to me. I'm well educated, work in a large service industry that is also a huge business (of which our practice is only a small part), and I go to sleep at night knowing I've been honest with people and done my best for them. If not, I make it right; of course I'm not perfect, but I'm also not afraid to admit it when I screw up.

That needs to happen here. Given Scott's comments above, Stephen, you're probably absolutely correct that a friendly phone call isn't going to work at this point and a more organized approach is required; a unified approach. I sincerely wish all of JW's customers the best in their endeavor (my business would be of absolutely no help at all in this circumstance, so, again, no stake in this) and agree that they should proceed steadfastly but quickly in the course of resolution they choose (and I don't mean that to imply anything other than professional/legal courses of action).

I'm going to try to stop rubbernecking at this point. I'm also impressed that everyone has kept their posts within guidelines thus far and hope that continues. Thanks to Scott and the moderators for allowing the discussion to continue, and, Dan, I appreciate your relaying your experience, as both sides are clearly valid!

Peace--

[Nelson Peddycoart]

A couple of things to remember:
1). A great luthier might be an inept businessman (and vice versa).
2). Check builders out before ordering.

I have found the discussion boards here on the Cafe to be invaluable in researching a builder or a particular model that has caught my wondering eye's attention.

Anyone remember the phrase "Caveat emptor"? Protect yourself and you won't likely find yourself in trouble.

I am bothered by:
1). The emails posted on the watchdog site. If they are accurate, Lord have mercy.
2). The builder's need to fund one person's refund with another's deposit.
3). The builder's explanation, which seems a little skewed to me.

Nelson

[Mandoist]

Seems to me both parties are at fault for letting such a thing drag on for years!

If someone's does you wrong in business (in this case, blows you off and does not refund money) go directly to Small Claims Court. In most US states it's an extremely quick process if you have even the slightest amount of a paper trail, etc. Sometimes even a verbal agreement is acceptable.

The Better Business Bureau (or Consumer Protection) is a long trail of forms to fill out.

If the like 'victims' in this thread are telling the Truth, the courtroom is pretty much a sure thing. Might not even have to pay a lawyer! I've done it without a legal rep -- with written contracts and/or agreements -- and breezed right on out the door within minutes of the hearing ...and left with my money on the way (or even in-hand once).

[Lefty Luthier]

I have followed this thread with great interest and a bit of wonder at how effective the internet is in exposing those who fail to deliver as committed. Those so-called artists who have the "my way or the highway" attitude are bread in my pocket so I encourage them to continue in that vein. In my 49 years of ala carte building for a very select group of customers, I have had only one instance where a customer was not satisfied with a delivery delay. He got his money back next day and actually apologized and reinitiated his order the next week when he found his nearly complete instrument for sale on E-BAY. The best advertising in the world is a satisfied customer, nuff said.

[danb]

This is an invitation to contact me if you are one of Jamie's customers waiting on an order. I will tell you what I know and what I think can be done.

I'm standing in a fairly small group that are optimistic here, perhaps because I have seen more of the entire story. I have been in contact already with some people on Jamie's list. I personally think this thread has been cathartic for the community, but the group of us involved as buyers are the ones that should be talking to each other. Many of the side points here have been a distraction to solving the core issue.

I've seen my own role and integrity questioned here. I want to remind everyone here that I too have an instrument on order at the bottom of the list, and I have paid the bulk of the full fee already. I'm confident I will get it! I know Jamie pretty well from working through all the Loar geekery I talked about earlier here, and we share other interests and keep in touch.

I'm not trying to bail him out or excuse what happened in the past, I want to help out wherever possible to bring this to a happy ending.

[danb]

One final comment- Please could we not paint the entire builder community with a broad brush here. Many of the comments made have been deeply offensive to the builder community at large here on the cafe. All Custom instrument builders are not on trial here, nor should they be. They are a valued part of the community that give us our voice, please be careful with your words here.

[Cornelius Morris]

I too have been in contact with both Jamie and Dan, and I think that Dan's offer is a good one that could lead to some good results, and could cool things down. Dan's objective is to get the remaining instruments finished and out the door.

[deepmountain]

Many on this thread have doubted the veracity of the email quotes attributed to Jamie Wiens posted on the website link in the original post that started this thread. And it's understandable that any reasonable person who attempts to conduct his or her life in a reasonable manner with others would be doubtful of such conduct. In the interest of clearing the air and putting to rest these doubts, I have created a photo album with scans of both Jim's contract with JW and and the pertinent emails along with a few others to give a general picture of the relationship as it developed. This is not being done to "flame" (the terminology that is used here), but only to vindicate Jim and underscore his integrity.

The emails included start when the mandolin was overdue by about six months. After Jim finally received a refund of his deposit money ($5000 less $450 cancellation fee, which we felt was unfair of JW to keep since he had broken the contract by not producing, but Jim didn't push it since he felt well out of it at that point), he culled out and kept the most pertinent emails. When mandocowboy approached Jim for help and advice he passed them onto him and that is the source of what you see on the aforementioned website. (He also felt that by keeping a cancellation fee, Jamie had bought himself $450 of bad publicity if it ever came to that, and sure enough, sadly, here we are...)

If you want to see the documentation here is the link:

http://gallery.me.com/katstark3#100189

One note: during these exchanges at some point I changed my email address and so there were a couple of times when Jim wasn't sure that Jamie had received his emails so he got a little anxious, and another time I accidentally sent an email multiple times not sure that it had gone through—JW gets down on Jim about that. Just wanted to clarify that point as Jim was not hovering as JW makes it sound, although he was getting very concerned and as it turns out, rightfully so.

I would also like to say that as an observer and follower of this thread from a bit of a distance that I commend you all for your rational and civil approach to this very sad situation. From the general tone of the conversation I am left with the impression that there isn't anyone on this thread, including Jim and myself, who hasn't been deeply saddened at the least and outraged at the worst by all that has come to light. Furthermore I don't believe there is anyone who really wishes ill for Jamie including us, and in fact, in our case, quite the opposite is true. We would hope that he can learn from this experience, step up and take responsibility and apologize to all those involved, try to make it right, and come out of this a better person who understands the importance of good relationships, not just in business but in all aspects of life. Being a talented artisan and craftsman is surely secondary to being a person of integrity and decency in ones life. After all, it's our relationships with others that makes life so meaningful and in the end is all we have left. The rest is, well, just the rest. (IMHO)

peace,

Kathryn
(Jim's partner)

[Cornelius Morris]

Kathryn,
I think that it's worth saying right away that nobody in this thread, if I recall correctly, has questioned Jim's integrity.

[GVD]

One final comment- Please could we not paint the entire builder community with a broad brush here. Many of the comments made have been deeply offensive to the builder community at large here on the cafe. All Custom instrument builders are not on trial here, nor should they be. They are a valued part of the community that give us our voice, please be careful with your words here.

I agree with not painting the builder community with a broad brush here and that they are not on trial or should be. What I don't get is "Many of the comments made have been deeply offensive to the builder community at large here on the cafe."

Could you please provide some examples? I'm not saying I couldn't have missed one or two but many? Or does the the builder community have some unwritten code to protect the shield like we've seen the Police use when one of theirs is involved in wrong doing? I hope you don't think I'm trying to be argumentative because I'm not. I just have a lot of respect for builders and if I'm doing something offensive to them unknowingly I'd like to know.

[Jill McAuley]

I too haven't noticed any derogatory comments aimed at luthiers in this thread, but maybe I missed something. One question I have is this - I was under the impression that when you commission a build that you put an agreed upon deposit down and then pay off the balance when your mandolin is done, but several people dealing with Mr. Weins seem to have paid a considerable amount of cash up front, above and beyond a deposit (including Dan B) - is this common practice or something unique to folks waiting on a Weins? I'm not flaming here or being facetious, simply asking a genuine question.

Cheers,
Jill

[deepmountain]

Kathryn,
I think that it's worth saying right away that nobody in this thread, if I recall correctly, has questioned Jim's integrity.

C-

Actually I think some have, perhaps inadvertently, by casting doubts that the quotes used were accurate, or less than truthful as some implied, which I think does bring into question the integrity of the one who provided them. And I've noticed it does keep coming up, so, because of that, I offer the link as documentation as to the truthfulness of the statements provided on the OP website link. That's my only intention; not to doubt the intention of others.

K-

[San Rafael]

Yeah. "Deeply offensive." Really?

This place worships custom builders; they're like the rock stars of the joint.

One or two of the American "factory" builders routinely get dealt big ol' rations here, week after week, year after year, which could be called "offensive" with much better justification.

[kirksdad]

I agree with not painting the builder community with a broad brush here and that they are not on trial or should be. What I don't get is "Many of the comments made have been deeply offensive to the builder community at large here on the cafe."

Could you please provide some examples? I'm not saying I couldn't have missed one or two but many? Or does the the builder community have some unwritten code to protect the shield like we've seen the Police use when one of theirs is involved in wrong doing? I hope you don't think I'm trying to be argumentative because I'm not. I just have a lot of respect for builders and if I'm doing something offensive to them unknowingly I'd like to know.

To Dan B who has I think becomes JW's PR Guy.......What GVB said........^^

[John Bertotti]

I paid a deposit for an Oldwave. I also then sent money as the build progressed because I trusted Bill and wanted to make sure the money I saved went to the instrument I commissioned and not get spent accidentally on something else during the wait for completion. I don't think it is uncommon for people to do that, I could be wrong. I would strongly advise anyone to keep a paper trail of money spent accidents happen and people make honest mistakes so a paper trail protects you and the builder form any issues. I know I have messed up my accounting before or forgotten to mail a bill and even forgot someone paid me so it is just wise for both parties to play it safe and keep good records.

[Stephen Perry]

Looks like someone stepped forward to coordinate getting the mandolins completed, monetary issues possibly resolved, and perhaps get JW set up to better handle things in the future. From my perspective, that might allow this thread to die away and things to be handled among the parties, rather than on the arena floor.

I trust that's the case. Private negotiations generally prove more efficient and less straining than public mechanisms. Public and legal debates seem to take on a life of their own, with often less than ideal results.

Good luck all.

[kirksdad]

I paid a deposit for an Oldwave. I also then sent money as the build progressed because I trusted Bill and wanted to make sure the money I saved went to the instrument I commissioned and not get spent accidentally on something else during the wait for completion. I don't think it is uncommon for people to do that, I could be wrong. I would strongly advise anyone to keep a paper trail of money spent accidents happen and people make honest mistakes so a paper trail protects you and the builder form any issues. I know I have messed up my accounting before or forgotten to mail a bill and even forgot someone paid me so it is just wise for both parties to play it safe and keep good records.

Amen;

This episode has not dissuaded me from a custom build in the very near future. Its only made me smarter. The folks who build are special talents, we need to understand the ground rules for which the operate, and as long as those guidelines are fair and in the open, there should never be any fear in working with them.

[Dfyngravity]

I know that Jamie's mandolin are absolutely stunning and from what I have heard are great sounding too. But from what I can tell, he isn't doing anything more special to his mandolins than any other builder out there.

actually, Jamie does LOTS of things other builders don't do. Dan Beimborn would have all the specifics, but let's just say that Jamie is probably the most Loar-obsessed builder alive today... and the final product shows it (unfortunately, I've never had a chance to play one)! if you have never seen images here on the Cafe of Jamie's incredible (if infrequent) work, i highly suggest you go to The Mandolin Archive and check out the photos of his most recent work. the most true-to-Loar f5's i've ever seen.[/QUOTE]



I completely understand that Jamie is building the closest Loar F5 mandolin out there. What I really meant is that he isn't reinventing the wheel here. There are many builders out there making their own bridges, bindings, tailpieces, ect...I know Jamie's goal is to get everything as close to a Loar reconstruction as possible so it's a little different and may take a little more time than your own design. But to me if you are taking orders and charging the amount he is charging than you should have all of your i's dotted and t's crossed so you can deliver in a reasonable amount of time.

I design and build custom landscapes as well as do custom home construction, so whenever I am faced with a project that has things I have not done before I research, research, and make sure I fully understand what it is I am doing before I take any money. I definitely understand that when you are doing custom projects with lots of details that ETAs are not always met, but are still completed within reason. I can tell you, if I tell someone 6 months on a custom house I am going to do everything in my power to hit that mark.

[Mark Walker]

I too became somewhat concerned by the potential that the many fine and reputable builders who frequent the Cafe' might be made a bit gunshy by this thread. I reminded myself that it was initiated based on concerns regarding one particular luthier, and that a number of people have had both good and bad experiences with this person.

I don't know Dan Beimborn personally, but have interacted with him on the Cafe', via email, and PM's and in my experience know him to be an honest and straight-shooting individual. I take at full face-value his comments, concerns and opinions regarding JW, as well as his candor and loyalty. Obviously it would be difficult for any one of us who've had a great working experience with any other human to then find less-than-complimentary comments made about that person - warranted or not. Regardless, there obviously have been issues with JW by some people, and it's unfortunate for not only those who support him, but those frustrated by him.

We all have differing perceptions about the 'tone' of this thread, but I contend (compared to many) it has maintained its informational integrity and civility.

Regarding my concern about other luthiers being 'scared' off, I suspect if they're on the sidelines watching and keeping quiet, there are observations they're making mental notes on as well. By and large, I would suggest the vast majority of the fine luthiers who frequent this site will continue to be a pleasure to do business with by repeat and future mandolin family shoppers! We're a community, and I feel it's our nature to live and learn, and continue to support one another. (Just look at the knowledge readily shared in the 'Builders' section by virtually every luthier who visits Mandolin Cafe'.)

Overall, this thread has been indicitive of that, and I commend everyone for maintaining that community integrity.

[foldedpath]

I paid a deposit for an Oldwave. I also then sent money as the build progressed because I trusted Bill and wanted to make sure the money I saved went to the instrument I commissioned and not get spent accidentally on something else during the wait for completion. I don't think it is uncommon for people to do that, I could be wrong.

That's not unusual, I think. My first custom guitar from one luthier was a standard 50%/50% deal. On the second one from the same luthier, we agreed on payment in thirds -- one third initial deposit, one third payable when the build hit the bench, final third when it was ready. That way I wasn't paying such a large chunk of cash to get it started, or to wrap it up. Some luthiers will be flexible like that, others have more formal requirements (especially for orders that come in blind, with no references or prior contact). Whatever you do, just get it in writing and make sure everything in the build is spelled out clearly.


I too haven't noticed any derogatory comments aimed at luthiers in this thread, but maybe I missed something. One question I have is this - I was under the impression that when you commission a build that you put an agreed upon deposit down and then pay off the balance when your mandolin is done, but several people dealing with Mr. Weins seem to have paid a considerable amount of cash up front, above and beyond a deposit (including Dan B) - is this common practice or something unique to folks waiting on a Weins? I'm not flaming here or being facetious, simply asking a genuine question.


I've had a luthier offer an upgrade in wood, hardware, or pickups during the initial phase of hashing out the price, but I've never had a luthier ask for more money after that initial spec was agreed to, or been asked to accelerate the payment schedule. I've never had a luthier tell me about their financial problems, or personal problems outside the scope of the workshop. Any of that goes way beyond the scope of the business transaction. It would be a major red flag for me. I enjoy friendly communication with people I'm doing business with, but there's a line there that shouldn't be crossed (IMO). Any discussion of money should stick to the terms of the initial agreement by email or other written transaction.

The only change in financial arrangements should be if the customer asks for an upgrade in specs or hardware somewhere along the way. I've done that too, but not so late in the process that it screws things up.

[danb]

I agree with not painting the builder community with a broad brush here and that they are not on trial or should be. What I don't get is "Many of the comments made have been deeply offensive to the builder community at large here on the cafe."

Could you please provide some examples? I'm not saying I couldn't have missed one or two but many? Or does the the builder community have some unwritten code to protect the shield like we've seen the Police use when one of theirs is involved in wrong doing? I hope you don't think I'm trying to be argumentative because I'm not. I just have a lot of respect for builders and if I'm doing something offensive to them unknowingly I'd like to know.

It's the language style. If I'm a luthier, I'll feel a finger pointed at me if I see a negative quote a bout Jamie followed by "so when dealing with custom builders, one should..." etc. There's a move from the specific to the general. I don't think it's intended, but it's cause to be cautious in what we write based on the enormously varied audience here including the builders with nothing whatsoever to do with the original emotions here in this thread

[peter.coombe]

Regarding my concern about other luthiers being 'scared' off, I suspect if they're on the sidelines watching and keeping quiet,

Yep. No intention to add anything to this mess, and thanks Dan.

[danb]

I don't know Dan Beimborn personally, but have interacted with him on the Cafe', via email, and PM's and in my experience know him to be an honest and straight-shooting individual. I take at full face-value his comments, concerns and opinions regarding JW, as well as his candor and loyalty


Thank you Mark. I'm of many minds on this and don't see it in pure black and white in any way and I appreciate your saying that.

Jim- I don't in any way dispute your honesty or intentions.


To Dan B who has I think becomes JW's PR Guy

No, that's not my intention. I think I can help out and I want to focus that primarily by helping to facilitate more direct communications between the involved parties. This thread has served to bring the issue to light, but I think as others have suggested that the solutions are going to come around more directly between Jamie and his customers. I want to help *in that way*, but I don't want to put a spin on this in any other way.

[J.Albert]

Flattpicker wrote:
"miniscule footnote: wait time for a Fleta classical guitar is, and long has been, 20 (twenty) years."

Frankly, that borders on absurdity. I can't think of any other way to express it.

These are mandolins - pieces of wood that you cut, shape, glue together and then put a finish on. Yes, it can take many hours. But it doesn't take THAT long.

Mr. Weins is said to build one mandolin per year. Huh? What the heck is he doing with the rest of his time up there, being an "artist"?

I've seen postings on this board displaying Mr. Wein's finished work, and indeed it looks fabulous. No problems with that.

I think he'd do better to cancel all his orders, refund money as best he can, and just build mandolins, selling them upon completion. If they are that good (and they _do_ look fine - the few that he's actually finished, that is!), someone will want them, and pay well for them.

If it was me, I'd go out and buy an Ellis, Randy Wood, Gilchrist, etc. that was available and already-completed. These guys seem to have no trouble supplying mandolins to the high-end market.

- John

[kirksdad]

Thank you Mark. I'm of many minds on this and don't see it in pure black and white in any way and I appreciate your saying that.

Jim- I don't in any way dispute your honesty or intentions.



No, that's not my intention. I think I can help out and I want to focus that primarily by helping to facilitate more direct communications between the involved parties. This thread has served to bring the issue to light, but I think as others have suggested that the solutions are going to come around more directly between Jamie and his customers. I want to help *in that way*, but I don't want to put a spin on this in any other way.

DanB;

Your intentions here are entirely laudable. Hope this things gets cleared up, hope those with deposits get their mandos, hope Jaime does the right thing.

Oftentimes hope is bad plan.........

[GVD]

It's the language style. If I'm a luthier, I'll feel a finger pointed at me if I see a negative quote a bout Jamie followed by "so when dealing with custom builders, one should..." etc. There's a move from the specific to the general. I don't think it's intended, but it's cause to be cautious in what we write based on the enormously varied audience here including the builders with nothing whatsoever to do with the original emotions here in this thread

Thanks For the response Dan and I agree that we all need to be mindful not to cast aspersions (even if not intentional) on the overwhelming number of fine builders who freely give their time and expertise on this board.

I've always held them in very high regard and this thread has done nothing to change my opinion on builders in general. I sincerely hope that everyone who reads this thread fully understands that this is about one particular builder named Jamie Wiens and that builder only.

[jim_n_virginia]

To the customers of TAFKAJW: please stop contacting me. I cannot assist.

Scott whether you like it or not you are a leader and thus an authority figure at least in this mandolin community! :))

[Phil Goodson]

This discussion has focused on rational people's obligations to fulfill promises and communicate appropriately.

I will simply share my experience with similar matters:
In my business we have a large group of professionals whose jobs include getting certain jobs (including paperwork & documentation) finished within a defined time period.
On several occasions these obligations have not been met and the professionals have been obliged to submit themselves for psychologic evaluation and counselling before receiving any more paychecks.
Interestingly, this has resulted in several cases of previously undiagnosed mental illnesses requiring medication or adjustment of medications for previously known illnesses. Other diagnoses have included use of illicit substances.

I make no suggestions that mental illness or substance abuse is involved in this instance (I have absolutely nothing to support anything like that.), but simply point out that behavior is not always simply a decision of the individual.

[Mteresko]

I just wanted to chime in here briefly as an owner of one of JWs mandolins. My mando was anticipated to be a year out and and wound up being close to two years. I found Jamie prickly at times about this issue, but never found him dishonest or anything other than passionate about building the best mandolins he could muster. I am the proud owner of a piece of his work, and it is a beautifully built and utterly musical instrument.

Mike Teresko

[tin ben dur]

I really have no business posting here but as a previous business owner I can say that this is no way to run a business. I am glad to see this out in the open. The is the "Word of mouth" per say in the mandolin community. I currently work with a guy and "Word of mouth" is how we keep busy even during these bad economic times. And the guys that have been having bad business practices are sitting at home on the couch. If you tell people your going to do something then do it.

We never collect a dime until we have done something or completed the job. The job we are on now will end up costing atleast twice that of a JW mando.

My 0.02 might not mean anything but I hope people get their money back. I also hope others do not feel like all mandolin builders are like this. Its as simple as doing a search of the builder before you give them a deposit. If and when I get the money I would not feel bad giving certain luthiers a deposit.

[tburcham]

Enough! Whatever purpose his thread may have served has been fulfilled...get it off the board.

[Chris Biorkman]

We can all stop talking now because Tim says the conversation is over.

[Bill James]

Not meaning to offend but, it's easy to forget that some people have jobs or jobs that don't allow them to access the message board all day or they may even travel and not be able to access it for days at a time. When the discussion is over it will die on it's own or, if the moderators will want it shut it down they will take care of that.

[tburcham]

Not meaning to offend but, it's easy to forget that some people have jobs or jobs that don't allow them to access the message board all day or they may even travel and not be able to access it for days at a time. When the discussion is over it will die on it's own or, if the moderators will want it shut it down they will take care of that.

None taken...

[Bob Borzelleri]

This has truly been an interesting and revealing thread. I don't know when it will die, but when all is said and done, the most notable thing about the thread, for me, is that very little, if any, of the constructive comments have come from Jamie Weins.

While I would vigorously applaud an outcome that has people who are out money being made whole and Jamie Weins becoming a person whose business integrity begins to match his obvious skill as a builder of fine mandolins, I have serious doubts that this will come to pass any time soon, if ever.

Reports of thousands of dollars of deposits being "gone" and using the deposits of some to pay back others, if true, paint a picture of a very deep financial hole and few apparent resources to dig out of. Perhaps more importantly and even more sadly, my experience working with people in similar situation suggests to me an even deeper, non financial hole that didn't get dug overnight.

Those who have expressed support and a willingness to help JW out of this mess are to be commended for their intentions. However, in order for that to happen, JW is going to have to do the lion's share of the heavy lifting and, to this point, I have seen no evidence that leads me to believe that he will take this task to heart.

[MikeEdgerton]

Just a quick note. This thread was originally locked but Scott made the decision to allow it to continue. I seriously doubt that it will ever "leave the board". It will become part of the vast archive that is the Mandolin Cafe. This is without a doubt the largest searchable repository for mandolin related information on the Internet. This thread will most likely be found in a Google search many years from now.

[Miked]

The next time my wife is looking up information on removing tough laundry stains, this is one she will have to filter out.;)

[G. Fisher]

The next time my wife is looking up information on removing tough laundry stains, this is one she will have to filter out.;)

That just make me laugh out loud. :)):))

[Randy Smith]

Enough! Whatever purpose his thread may have served has been fulfilled...get it off the board.

The posting on this thread seems to be slowing down--maybe that's good news for you. In the meantime, please allow the Cafe to have its say.

[Gary Hedrick]

After reading all of these postings, I want to weigh in by saying "Don't flush all the builders down the toilet by lumping them into a bunch"

I have had good experiences and some that haven't been great but in general luthiers take longer than they think they will. They want to please...they want to be perfect in their art form....they want to get it done as soon as possible yet family, health and material issues always make things stretch out.

The custom builder market isn't like running a capital build project. I think it is fair to have progress payments, ask for schedule updates on a periodic basis but recognize that the market isn't real precise like building a facility and you just need to get use to it or else take your money elsewhere.

Also we could start a thread about the horror stories of customers not sticking with a scope. Changing their minds....not listening to the builder and overall being pains in the rear.

As for Mr Wiens, I've owned one of his mandolins......very nice instument...good sound and it was well built. He is capable of doing a great job.

As for the rest of the behaviors.....Yuck....

[F5G WIZ]

Yes I agree, my custom built mandolin arrived one month to the day earlier than the builder told me it would. Love it and no problems!

[Jill McAuley]

After reading all of these postings, I want to weigh in by saying "Don't flush all the builders down the toilet by lumping them into a bunch"



Point me to the posts where folks are "lumping builders into a bunch" and flushing them down the toilet? I've read this lengthy thread in it's entirety and I haven't seen anything like that at all. There is HUGE respect here for all of the amazing luthiers out there and I'm sure there will continue to be.

Cheers,
Jill

[deepmountain]

Jim- I don't in any way dispute your honesty or intentions.

No, that's not my intention. I think I can help out and I want to focus that primarily by helping to facilitate more direct communications between the involved parties. This thread has served to bring the issue to light, but I think as others have suggested that the solutions are going to come around more directly between Jamie and his customers. I want to help *in that way*, but I don't want to put a spin on this in any other way.

Thanks Dan. I appreciate you saying that and your willingness to facilitate communications with JW. I hope you will keep us posted here on the Cafe as to the success, or lack thereof, of your efforts and what is happening, particularly if Jamie is willing to "come to the table" and if he is also willing to acknowledge responsibility.

Jim