This sound vs. That sound

[Steve Etter]

One of the responses frequently offered up, especially to "newbies" who are looking to get their first instrument is to try out lots of different instruments and then buy the one that "sounds the best". This is clearly sound (pun intended) advise, but I'm wondering if anybody out there offers something better.

When you really have no idea what the difference between a "good" sound or a "bad" sound is, its really easy to doubt one's own opinion and then settle for an average instrument. This, I suspect, is what happens to lots of these first-time buyers; they go to the store, play on (or at) several instruments, shrug to themselves and finally give up, or give in and then purchase based on the price, what a sales guy says, or some other factor just because they all sound pretty much the same to their uneducated ear.

So what I want to know is this; does anybody out there have or know of a video (with decent sound, of course) that attempts to demonstrate the difference between the sounds of various instruments - high end, low end, good quality and low quality? How can I can I feel at all confident that the Gibson I just plucked on has the "really good" sound that it is suppose to? What is a "woody" sound, anyway? What if the "sound" I think I like turns out to be one of the ones everyone else hates - you know, like Rod Stewart's voice?

I would think that such a video, maybe hosted by someone who is recognized as "knowing the difference", would be well received.

For what its worth.

Steve

[sunburst]

Never mind...

[Ray(T)]

If there was such a thing as the perfect sounding mandolin, we could all buy one and be happy. Fortunately, there isn't and we can all spend our lives looking for something which sounds better. The truth is that all mandolins (and guitars) sound different and different situations require different sounds which is why one/two/three/...... ten mandolins/guitars are never enough.

To get back to the original question, new players should be advised to buy the best they can afford and like the sound of. If they make the correct choice, they will inevitably buy a better and more expensive one at a later date.
Ray

[mandroid]

Just offering: Mass produced imports, which dominate the lower price levels, can look the same,
but one can be dead, and another ring out adequately, just from variations in the materials ..

Though one would hope the dealer , trying out stuff as soon as he gets it, would send the clinkers
back to the Wholesaler, rather than hang them on the wall..

Warehouse dealers, leave that sorting out to the Customer, to return the dead sounding
mandolin shaped objects.

[Steve Etter]

new players should be advised to buy the best they can afford and like the sound of. If they make the correct choice, they will inevitably buy a better and more expensive one at a later date.
RayAnd therein lies the rub – becoming capable of making the correct choice. As a beginner, one of the fears is that your initial choice will end up being REALLY, REALLY BAD (like the one I made was).

I'm not asking for a definitive "this is better than that" kind of thing, I'm looking for a How-To-Make-A-Comparison:

"Ok, folks. Listen now as I play this. [Host plays a short riff on a low-quality Mandolin]
"Do you hear how the upper notes seem to be lost there? Listen to it again" [plays it again]
"Now, listen to the same piece played on this mandolin" [plays the piece again on the high-quality Mandolin]
"Can you here that? The notes come to life, don't they?"

and so on.

The same could be done for sounds that are commonly referred to as “woody” or “deep” and for qualities like "sustain" and "playability". In short, this would be a lesson in How to Go About Making a Comparison not so much in how to evaluate the results of a comparison.

Steve

[GRW3]

+1 for playability being the key factor for a beginner mandolin. You need to be able to play the notes without killing your fingers and the intonation needs to be OK.

A friend had a suggestion about guitars but it applies to this too. "Buy the best instrument that you can hear any positive difference in tone that is in your budget." (Too bad for those of us whose hearing exceeds our budget :) )

[F-2 Dave]

I'd suggest listening to as much recorded mandolin music as you can. You'll soon develope a sense of what you like the sound of and what you don't like the sound of. Then play or have someone play for you as many mandolins as you might like. There are mandolins that I've heard others rave about that I am just lukewarm on. On the other hand, for my ears, I'd put my humble little MT against almost anything else costing twice as much. If, in the end you really can't discern between good and bad sound, you may be one of the lucky few that gets out of here with a little change in your pocket.

[CES]

Steve,

I hear where you're coming from...it's taken a couple of years of trying stuff in music stores and semi-randomly buying inexpensive mandos from the classifieds to discover both the sound and feel that I like, and, more importantly, the sound and feel I don't like.

Probably the closest thing out there to what you're describing are the sound files at Folk of the Wood and also the Mandostore. They're certainly not perfect, but they at least offer a comparison of sounds for the listener. One of the problems with this concept, though, is the fact that most people have to develop their ear. I can't remember being able to hear a huge difference in mandos on the FOTW files 3 or 4 years ago, but I recently compared a Gold Tone Rigel Copy to the original on there, and, boy, you can really hear the difference. The strengths of both sites I think lies in the fact that both use the same recording equipment and same players, at least eliminating those variables.

Not a bad idea, but difficult to pin down definitively given the subjective nature of "tone."

[Doug Hoople]

You're buying a budget musical instrument. You're not getting married.

It's really easy to overanalyze, and that leads to lots of unnecessary hand-wringing.

Newbies should buy any instrument within their budget that they like the sound and feel of. It's likely to be the first of many, so no worries about being committed forever.

The one thing I would suggest is to look for an instrument that is common to that newbie's favorite genre. Archtop Gibson-style (A or F) for bluegrass and country. Gibson-style (A or F) for jazz and blues. Gibson-style (A or F), Vega or Lyon & Healy for American-style classical. Bowlbacks for European-style classical. Flat-top, archtop A, or bowlback for old-time. Flat-top and shallow arches for Celtic, etc.

Make sure it's playable, and spend the extra money to get it set up properly, and then learn to play.

The second mandolin is a more critical purchase than the first, but there's time for that later.

[Steve Etter]

You're buying a budget musical instrument. You're not getting married.While I understand your point - that you are likely to upgrade someday - I think this is where a lot of seasoned players forget what its like. Its just like looking for your first spouse. You want the right one. You want the one that will be right tomorrow. You have never been married before, so you have almost no idea what the "right one" is like. About the only real difference is that with finding a spouse, you probably think you know SOMETHING about men/women - at least enough to know some of the things you don't want. This is not necessarily true for a lot of first-time mando buyers.

I agree with all the points about looking at one type for bluegrass and another for Celtic and all that. I agree that what sounds good to me may not sound good to you - that's not the point. I agree with looking for something in your price range and buying [probably] at the top of your spending range. But that is not the point either. Its about getting a little bit more confidence when it comes time to compare the sounds of two or more comparably price mandolins. How can we as Cafe'rs, having a bit of experience doing and talking about just that - day after day, post after post - turn vague descriptions that mean almost nothing to an outsider into something that can be "heard".

I really seems to me that our oft-sited list of discernible differences can be demonstrated.

Steve

[Doug Hoople]

I really seems to me that our oft-sited list of discernible differences can be demonstrated.

Steve

+1 for checking out the Folk of the Wood videos. I agree that they actually show less than you'd expect for what they're hoping to accomplish.

Also, buy a copy of vols I and II of David Grisman's 'Tone Poems' albums, as well as his 'Tone Poets' albums.

With the 'Tone Poems' recordings, you have one artist playing a vast array of different instruments. And yes, you can tell the differences pretty clearly on these recordings. I confess I developed an incurable fondness for the Steve Gilchrist Artist A on careful listening to 'Out of Nowhere,' a fondness made far more intense for the 10 minutes I had in playing a good one at the Symposium a couple of years ago, indisputably the finest mandolin I've ever laid my hands on. But I digress...

With the 'Tone Poets' recording, you get a demonstration of just how difficult it is to represent a single instrument with just a few recordings. It's David Grisman's legendary Loar in the hands of a vast panoply of legendary manodlinists. This recording demonstrates that a mandolin's voice is bound up inexorably in the infinite variations of the way it's played by different people.

While I understand your impulse, Steve, to codify the essence of these mandolins in a form consumable by a newbie, I think there is something quite irreducible about actually playing them as a means of absorbing what they're about.

Again, get an instrument you like and play it.

To get back to the metaphor, we generally have a few girlfriends/boyfriends and get well past our first kiss before we start to think about getting married, don't we? It's not that big a deal.

[Mike Bunting]

I think that the is no objective way to compare sounds, we all have different ears. It is totally subjective and as such experience can be your only teacher. Jump in the pool, do not be afraid to develop your own a aesthetic, why should you like what I like, whether it's ice cream or mandolin tone?

[Steve Etter]

While I understand your impulse, Steve, to codify the essence of these mandolins in a form consumable by a newbie, I think there is something quite irreducible about actually playing them as a means of absorbing what they're about.Doug, I think this statement shows that you are actually missing my point. I am not trying to codify the essence of a mandolin. Not at all. I merely want to demonstrate the DIFFERENCE we so often talk about. One instrument has a lot of it, another not so much so. You can here it and notice it. The newbie may not. That's what I want captured. The evaluation of the essence is still left to the individual - they just now know how to go about listening.


To get back to the metaphor, we generally have a few girlfriends/boyfriends and get well past our first kiss before we start to think about getting married, don't we? It's not that big a deal.But it is a big deal, to the person who has never had one, it is. Our newbie friends have never had a "girlfriend/boyfriend" before - that is what they come here to ask us about. If they had, they wouldn't be asking these questions of innocence, would they?


I think that the is no objective way to compare sounds, we all have different ears. It is totally subjective and as such experience can be your only teacher. Jump in the pool, do not be afraid to develop your own a aesthetic, why should you like what I like, whether it's ice cream or mandolin tone?Mike - Again, I disagree - we CAN offer an objective comparison - demonstrate that has what we recognize as a "target" kind of sound and then one that doesn't. Don't call it "good" or "bad" or "better" or "worse" - just demonstrate the difference.

This is what most pure newbies want - what does the difference sound like?

I think you all have pointed out some really good sources for going out to find examples of instruments (Tone Poems, FOTW), but those fall short of what I am asking for in that they do not offer a side-by-side comparison. I think this is important. When you are trying to learn a concept from a pure newbie standpoint, this side-by-side is essential - this is how we grasp the concept - hear one then hear the other and note the difference. Listening to examples of excellent playing and instruments only goes so far as to give you something to appreciate - not what to appreciate about it. It doesn't do much to help when you are standing in the music store three days later plucking on an instrument you can't make sound anything like what you heard on Tone Poems.

Steve

[Big Joe]

Steve... after many years experience trying to deal with this thing called "tone" I have come to a few conclusions. First, most beginning players cannot tell the difference from a 10k mandolin or a 100 dollar mandolin. That is not a negative comment, just the facts. They have not developed enough of an ear to be able to tell the difference and a CD or DVD with a hundred different instruments may not sound any better to them than the 100 dollar instrument. How many times on the cafe have we read someone post that their 100 or 200 or 300 dollar mandolin sounds better than a real Loar. Obviously that does not gain much traction with more experienced players, but to the beginner it may actually sound that way. Development of tonal understanding is a learned and experiential thing as much as anything and until the listener has the hearing skills to discern one from the other that cd/dvd would be of little value to them. It may even push them closer to a bad choice in a bad mandolin.

Second, not everyone has the same taste. While I love the sound of a good varnish mandolin, I know one very top rated legend in mandolins that did not like or want a varnish mandolin. He likes the tone of lacquer. There is nothing wrong with that in any way, but it shows that even experts have different tastes in instruments. If we assume one will think our favorite mandolin is the best ever, we may well be sorely mistaken. Each person develops a tone that moves them. That is one reason there are so many mandolin builders today.

Third is that our tastes change over time. I remember when I thought my Alvarez F model mandolin was the best sounding mandolin on the planet. Then I heard a Lloyd LaPlant. I was blown away. I wanted one so bad, but that was a LOT of money for a musical instrument. Since then I've been blessed to have some wonderful instruments. They are a world apart from the Alvarez I started with. My tastes have changed radically. I remember when I first began working with Charlie Derrington man years ago. He was a varnish mandolin nut. He loves Loars and anything to do with a Loar. I was not that impressed with the tone. I loved the instruments, but was not convinced they sounded that good. He almost forced me to get my first really good mandolin. It was a Gilchrist that I bought from Butch Baldassari in the early 90's. I soon began to understand his love for varnish mandolins. I had not idea about the difference from the heavy lacquered Gibsons from that era until I began to play the Gil. It was not too long before I really began to understand the Loar love he had. After being exposed to a good number of them I really began to understand the tonal element that he heard. Not long before I was not impressed. Now I had dreams about them.

I guess the point most of us are trying to make is that any cd/dvd trying to explore the reaches of quality in build or tone would be pretty much useless. That kind of experience is not transferred by a cd/dvd. It only comes from holding, playing, and hearing enough mandolins of reasonable quality until that tonal thing becomes a reality. That is, simply, experience. No, they may not think the Loar or Master Model is that much better than the pac rim mandolin they just bought for a fraction of the price, but given time and opportunity to let their ear develop as the playing skill does and they will understand and want to upgrade. They may never aspire to a Loar, or a MM, or a Gil, or a ???... but they may aspire to a good mandolin that provides a tone that inspires them to play.

My favorite way to determine whether a mandolin is good or not is whether it makes me want to play and not put it down. If I can refuse to play it then it isn't the right mandolin for me. I want instruments around me that make me play them. I am less concerned about the name or the price point, but whether than instrument inspires me to want to play. Most often that will be instruments in a certain style or category for my taste, but not always. Sometimes I am very pleasantly surprised.

I hope this response makes sense to you. I wish one could just put in a cd/dvd that would help a beginner or intermediate player understand the differences, but it would not translate. I do appreciate your honest means to find a way to answer the problem that most starters go through. Getting an instrument that fits the needs of the beginner without throwing good money after bad can be tough. Hopefully the starter will find a place like the Cafe or a dealer that has enough knowledge or variety to help make a reasonable selection possible. Finally, many entry level mandolin players come from a guitar background and assume a very nice mandolin can be found for a couple hundred dollars. Unfortunately, that rarely works. Mandolins are more expensive and most beginning players are not that sure they will stick with it to invest what they need to invest to get a reasonable mandolin. They will make a poor purchase because it fits in the price range they hope to be. Often a bit of education about the instrument can help them make a better choice and make them willing to spend enough to get a decent entry level instrument. Thank you.

[bennyb]

Howdy Steve,
I thought you asked the question clearly enough, ...well, can't improve on Joe's answer. I really do think that guitars are much easier for the uninformed, uneducated rookie to take the first step with in terms of trusting their own ears - hit the open D string, sounds great? that's the one for you. That doesn't make it playable, or worth the price, but your ears just know more.

My dos centavos, benny

[Mike Bunting]

You can't codify the differences if you can't define the premise tones. You state emphatically "we CAN offer an objective comparison ", well let's hear it.

[John Flynn]

I'm not an expert like Joe, but just a ex-guitar player who traveled down this road over the last 15 years. I can only share my opinions on what I wished I had known as a newb.

A newbie's first priority in a first instrument is to make sure it's a "competent" instrument. It has no defects, it is well set up and it stays in tune. The second priority is playability. This is partially a setup issue, but there is also the factor of how it subjectively feels in your hand. A lot of new players like a fatter neck and a radiused fretboard, especially if they are coming from guitar, but that is not always true. Finally, for tone on a first instrument, I would just get the genre down. If you are playing bluegrass, get an archtop F-hole. If you are playing celtic, perhaps a flat-top. Get a brand and model that has a good reputation here on the Cafe'.

But don't worry about whether it's "woody," or even what "woody" sounds like. That's like trying to describe a "woody" taste in a fine wine when you've never had tasted any wine at all, or trying to describe "understeer" to someone who has never driven a car. Those are "connoisseur" terms that even the connoisseurs argue about the meaning of! They are just confusing for a beginner. You are looking for the "Cliff's Notes" version and I don't think it works that way.

"Tone Poems" and "Tone Poets" was mentioned. Those are great studies, but even after playing for a number of years, I liked some of the lesser-know, lower rated instruments better than the famous ones. So I guess either I'm still a rube, or as the saying goes, "it's just personal preference!"

[sgarrity]

You can't capture the true tone of an instrument on video. A lot of what make a great mandolin great is the feel to the player. Figuring all of this out is part of the fun IMHO. I've owned a lot of mandolins and guitars and as my ear became more experienced my taste changed. The best advise to a newbie is to buy the best mandolin they can afford, get it set up properly, and play the heck out of it. And start playing other mandolins when your at jams and music stores to learn about tone.

Based on a recent purchase I can heartily recommend the Kentucky KM1000 to new players. Well made, has "the" looks and sounds darn good, especially for the price. There are lots of low cost options today that offer some serious bang for the $$$.

[Doug Hoople]

"Tone Poems" and "Tone Poets" was mentioned. Those are great studies, but even after playing for a number of years, I liked some of the lesser-know, lower rated instruments better than the famous ones. So I guess either I'm still a rube, or as the saying goes, "it's just personal preference!"

Too true. I'm totally with you. I may have fallen in love with that Gil Artist A on "Out of Nowhere," but for a gutbucket blues, that Strad-o-lin is hard to beat!

[Steve Etter]

You can't codify the differences if you can't define the premise tones. You state emphatically "we CAN offer an objective comparison ", well let's hear it.Ok. I'm looking to demonstrate the difference between this one and that one. Strike a note - this one has an amplitude of X. Strike the same note, the same way on that one, it has an amplitude significantly greater than X. There is an objective difference.

Now, clearly not everybody really wants to watch the amplitude meter, most of us want somebody with a reputation, Mike Compton for example, to look us in the eye and say "I can hear a difference. When I hit this string on Mandolin #1, it is louder than when I hit the same string on Mandolin #2" and then demonstrates it. This is also a demonstration of an objective comparison because nobody is offering a subjective review like "this is better".

Steve

[Steve Etter]

Everyone - I apologize. I have changed horses in the middle of the stream here and didn't even realize it.

In my original post, I clearly took aim at defining "good sound" vs. "bad sound". In my responses, I have switched over to only looking for recognizing the acoustic difference between instruments with no regard to "good" or "bad".

I agree that trying to capture subjective differences like "good", "better", and "best" can only be judged by the listener.

My original post missed the mark of what I was really after. When I wrote it, my goal really was to find an objective method for demonstrating difference. My hope was that once that was accomplished, maybe some of those differences could be pointed to as the "commonly sought-after" sounds.

Please forgive me for bouncing about with this.

Steve

[Doug Hoople]

My favorite way to determine whether a mandolin is good or not is whether it makes me want to play and not put it down. If I can refuse to play it then it isn't the right mandolin for me. I want instruments around me that make me play them. I am less concerned about the name or the price point, but whether than instrument inspires me to want to play.

+1!!! End of story, IMHO. Each of my primary axes was an instrument that I picked up, started playing and looked up an hour later only to realize I had been playing the whole time. When an instrument speaks to you like that, you'll know which one to buy.

[allenhopkins]

Everyone - I apologize...I agree that trying to capture subjective differences like "good", "better", and "best" can only be judged by the listener.

We can discern that mandolins sound different. Whether the different sounds are "good" or "bad" is a matter of individual taste. Even a beginner can tell which sounds "better" to him/her. Tastes change as one continues to play (cf Big Joe above).

I know what I like, but I'd be really reticent about universalizing my preferences. I think we could get a plurality of Cafe members to say they preferred the sound of a Gibson Lloyd Loar to a Rogue, but price, quality and availability are so astronomically far apart, that the comparison would be irrelevant to a beginner who's trying to decide among several $250 instruments.

The question of sound amplitude reduces the discussion to one of volume. That may not be the crucial variable to a particular purchaser. Sound quality is impossible to evaluate objectively, IMHO. You get immediately into individual tastes, and objectivity is gone.

Many seem to select mandolins on the basis of what some well-known musician plays -- "if Joe Flashfingers plays a Shmergel, I'll sound like him if I buy and play one." Others value appearance, provenance, manufacturer reputation, potential resale value, or value for the money. To the beginner, as stated above, playability is a very high priority, often above sound.

I'm often left with the wise words of the late Eldon Stutzman, for whom I sold instruments about 40 years ago: "If you don't hear the difference, buy the cheaper one." This, of course, assumes that all instruments compared are of decent quality. In the end, it's the buyer's ears (and eyes, and fingers) that need to be satisfied, on the basis of individual choice.

[OldSausage]

If you can avoid developing a properly refined ear for tone, you can save yourself a lot of money.

My advice is to buy whichever one you find easiest to play, and later your ear will tell you which one you want, if you keep playing long enough.

[red7flag]

While I would refrain from comparing brands and models. There are some individual instruments that sound great. In this category I would include both A and F models, among others, F, oval and other hole configurations. I have heard great sounding, even with me playing, that were cheep in price, not many, however. And most, but not all in the high price brackets. Middle range price can vary alot. Some manufacturers have a sound that is fairly consistant across its models (Collings comes to mind), while other manufacturers vary even within a particular model (a number of lower priced manufacturers come to mind). I have played some instruments that are just plain outstanding by any standard. These are the very rare instruments that seem to do what they do better than other instruments. Some newer instruments that I have heard that have fit in this category are Dudes, Monts, Gils, Stanleys, Kimbles, Altmans, Red Diamond among others. There are very few in made by those manufacturers that I would not be more than happy to own, if I could afford them. I have played a few lower priced instruments that really wowed me, but always with the caveat, for that price range. They have never compared with the instruments from the manufacturers that I have mentioned above. I am sure there are exceptions, but, you normally get what you pay for. Any times that I tried to get a deal, I lost out.

[Big Joe]

If one wishes to record different mandolin for volume it still tells nothing. There are many considerations in that effort as well. Each mandolin will "carry" differently from another and where you set the mic will determine whether you are getting the volume right in front or out a bit where one can really tell how the mandolin sounds. Then the frequency response of a mandolin may be different from another. That may vary how well the amplitude seems only a few feet from the front of the instrument. It may seem very loud right directly in front, but be quiet only feet away. Others may seem a bit more subdued very close, but are just as loud across a large room.

We also have to realize no one will pick each of them exactly the same with the same force and same way. It may be similar, but not likely exactly the same. That defeats the exercise completely, even though not intentional. Then some mandolins record very well and other do not record that well. It would certainly be unfair to base a decision on a poor recording. On top of all this, one has to consider the quality of the mics, recording equipment, and lines used. Even the media being recorded on will make a difference.

I'm not trying to be obtuse, just trying to point out that subjective means of determining which may be best ends up being very subjective. In reality, it is all quite subjective anyway. You and I may each have an equal passion for the instrument but different taste and while one may seem excellent to you I may be totally put off by your choice, and you by mine. Neither are wrong, just different. In the market today there are so many good mandolins for the price point each of us shop in and information is so easy to obtain on which ones to check out and which ones to leave alone that it is really as easy to get the information you want without going to extra effort. Once the buyer has done even a little bit of research it is not too hard to find a place or dealer to help with the product they may be interested in.

Most of us in the retail end of the business certainly want to help our customer get a decent instrument that will meet their needs for a good amount of time. If we can help them make a reasonable choice they may not have MAS quite as quickly and find they are more than satisfied with the instrument they purchase. Our goal is to have a very happy and satisfied customer... not just get their money. If we, and the others on this forum, continue to offer the help as has been over the years, there is plenty of information for a new player to make a reasonable choice. That is likely to be a far more satisfying method than a heavily flawed, though well intended, recording.

Again, I'm not trying to put sour milk on your suggestion, only making some observations. Your post is interesting and a worthy question. The only "stupid" question is the one that does not get asked. Now, I've posted my thoughts and not everyone will agree, but that is allright. After all, these are only my observations and my opinions :) .

[jasona]

If it were as simple as suggested, Dr. Cohn would have worked out the objective measures by now.

All I can say is you hear it when you hear it, and your ear really does change with time, as Joe so well put it. When I first got my Kentucky, I thought it sounded as good as any mandolin in the 12th Fret. A few months later, I thought an Absaroka was the best. Then a Capek. Then another few months later it was a Gibson reworked by Randy Wood (I would still like to have that one). And a Sobell (ditto actually, rang like a cathedral that one). Master Models, Loars, Kimbles, and a mellondolin!

Now I think I have a decently developed ear, after hearing and playing many different mandolins. And I'm sure I've a ton more to learn.

I really like that advice above, "If you don't hear a difference, buy the cheaper one"

[Fretbear]

As far as looking to recordings for sonic clues go, you can pretty much forget about digital formats. They can be likened to articles of clothing that have had much of their threads and stitching removed to reduce their weight/durability (file size) but still seem to "look alright". They will tell you next to nothing about the deeper guts of a fine instrument. Vinyl LPs were another matter, but that is another topic. I would need several days with any instrument that I was going to seriously consider purchasing either for myself or someone else, as no instrument is supplied strung-up the way I need it to be to accurately determine what it has to deliver. Inexpensive instruments will often be supplied with a poorly fit, cheap-junk bridge and until that is rectified, it is impossible for anyone to ascertain what the instrument is really capable of sounding like, and even then only after the new bridge settles in, which will take some more time.
I often hear recordings from players that I assume are happy with their sound (at least enough to present it on YouTube etc.) that to me sounds like someone smashing lightbulbs in a tin bucket.
What sounds great to one person may very well sound less so to someone else, and vice versa.

[brianf]

What is really confusing and disappointing is when you have just played your brand new, expensive mandolin on its first gig, and then someone tells you that the old mandolin sounded better.:crying:

[Giuliano]

Really interesting topic.
It seems to me that the topic highlights a situation that anyone, who ventures into a new domain faces, which is, 'you can't know something before you know it'.
In this case, going through instruments as ones' taste and budget evolve is the price of tuition.
Don

[Steve Etter]

Each mandolin will "carry" differently from another and where you set the mic will determine whether you are getting the volume right in front or out a bit where one can really tell how the mandolin sounds. Then the frequency response of a mandolin may be different from another. That may vary how well the amplitude seems only a few feet from the front of the instrument. It may seem very loud right directly in front, but be quiet only feet away. Others may seem a bit more subdued very close, but are just as loud across a large room.

We also have to realize no one will pick each of them exactly the same with the same force and same way. It may be similar, but not likely exactly the same. That defeats the exercise completely, even though not intentional. Then some mandolins record very well and other do not record that well. It would certainly be unfair to base a decision on a poor recording. On top of all this, one has to consider the quality of the mics, recording equipment, and lines used. Even the media being recorded on will make a difference.... In reality, it is all quite subjective anyway.Ok, then. Excellent points that hit right to the heart of what I was after.

So maybe my initial idea of an audio-video solution targeting sound misses the mark. Perhaps, though, another opportunity exists.

What about a "Beginners Guide to Selecting Your 1st Mandolin"?

The consensus seems to be that there are at least four major areas that a beginner should know about when considering an instrument; Playability, Appearance, Quality, and Sound. Each of these areas will carry different weight for different people, but each of them should be considered separately and then as a whole. Once you know how to look for and understand what you want in each of these areas, you should be able to go out and make a selection.

Does developing a Guide like that make sense? Does one that aims directly at newbies already exist?

Steve

[Hans]

You live in the same state as Joe, take a trip to his shop. If you have an instructor and take lessons, take him with. There's at least 3 stores in Nashville that carry cheap to excellent mandolins. In the end it's what Joe said, if it hits you in the gut and you don't want to put it down, that's what you want.

[Big Joe]

You have found an avenue that is workable. One can prepare a brochure explaining the considerations a beginner should have when purchasing a first mandolin and understanding it may not be the last one they buy. With the advance in technology we can provide an excellent beginners instrument that can last until they are pretty good players. The days of only junk and only great stuff are over. That mid range is priced very well for a beginner and will last them until they can get that "dream" mandolin. Maybe the thoughts from this thread could be edited to help a beginner. There is certainly enough information in any given month on the cafe to develop a very good list. Good idea though.

[pickloser]

Steve - I think your "Guide" idea makes good sense. If a budding player took a sort of checklist to music stores, then at least he would remember to take note of certain qualities of potential mandolin purchases. My excitement level was so high when I bought my first mando that I could not have applied any real discipline to the decision without help. I would have made an impulsive stab in the dark and hoped for the best. Luckily, I had a very experienced player with me. He steered me away from some over-priced examples, pointed out finish flaws, and played the mandos for me so I could hear them from the listener's side--both close up and from across the room. He had me compare the relative strengths of the bass, mids and trebles for each mando and between mandos. Importantly too, he noted what issues could be eliminated with a good set up, and which were there to stay. I think, without that help, I would have come home with a lesser mandolin than the one I got. A checklist could serve a similar purpose--help someone at least remember to think about various aspects of each mandolin.
Great idea!

[fredfrank]

I have found these videos to be a rather interesting comparison. And while I wouldn't base my purchasing decision on any of them, it is one way to compare many fine mandolins to each other.

http://www.mandotunes.com/Instrvideos/

[Stephen Perry]

Additional complexities.

Mandolins, violins, and the like radiate sound in a complex manner. Much of the fine detailing in the higher overtones comes from the non-uniform directionality of the sound radiation. Look up "directional tone color." This aspect doesn't get captured in recordings, even very nice vinyl played through exceptional speakers.

Mandolins and other instruments break in. Playing a mix of new and old instruments places "green" ones against broken in ones. Sometimes quite stiff new instruments mature into rather nice ones. Isn't worth betting on, but it's something to consider. Some players, very good ones, coming in appear to be able to tell what will mature nicely. I've observed this breaking in mostly on violins. After a while, a tight new very nice one may suddenly surge into a different way of operating. Then drop out of that mode. Gradually the tone and projection stay "on" for longer periods. Break in may go on forever. A point of debate.

A final trouble, being directional, the sound the player hears can be quite different from the effect out there. Some seem more directional than others. Get in a quiet, nicely damped room and walk around a good player listening to things change.

The player makes a good deal of difference, too. I sometimes have a dud instrument I'm stuck with for one reason or another. It will sit around for a couple of years, then some fellow will make it sound better than all the other ones and walk out with it. And it's the right choice. Baffles me a bit, especially when I can't see that the player is doing anything different. This makes sense with really stiff instruments that finally find a really strong mate, but that's not usually the case.

These points probably don't make this any easier. I tried recording. All I got was grief about my recordings and a big loss of time.

What might make overall shopping easier is outlined above. Find some that do the job you need done well. Then pick the one that does that job in the way you like.

[grassrootphilosopher]

The original question with its further mentioned aspects produces a string of follow up questions and answers.

Even the most experienced player was a newbie once. Each of us has experienced the path of development. Some have been luckier than others.

I started out as guitar picker. When I turned to the mandolin I was somewhat prepared for a half decent sound. It came by experience with the guitar.

I was lucky to have read the "Bluegrass Mandolin" by Jack Tottle (the book is from the late 70ies when good mandos were hard to come by). He mentioned Gibson A-styles and F-styles with the Lloyd Loar F-5 as the benchmark. He also mentioned Strad-O-Lin etc.

I picked up the info and was lucky to visit a mando-luthier (in Hamburg Germany). There I tried out all the instruments, some of which were way out of my price range (Gibson´s Bill Monroe model was the priciest). I was not adept on the mandolin then but I heard the difference in the tone and the sound. I settled on the most inexpensive vintage mandolin, a Strad-O-Lin (I asked about Strad-O-Lin mandos due to "Bluegrass Mandolin" and the luthier said he had one and got it out from somewhere; good fortune). Back then it was on par with the likewise priced import Kentucky mandos. Now after having been played back in the sound is priceless (for an instrument of this kind of rather lowball standing). It compares to other vintage mandolins very favorably. The tone itself though is a matter of taste. So I was dang lucky.

After years of playing and seeing many instruments at festivals and having had the chance to compare instruments, I can still say that the tone is a question of taste. On the other hand other factors have come into focus.

The other factors are carrying power, evenness of tone, playability, and in the end workmanship.

To me as the then mando newbie carrying power and evenness of tone were of no regard though by comparing different instruments the tone quality of good instruments was obvious to me.

I found out that playability is evident even to the starter. For example, I immediately recognized a rather pronounced improvement of my playing when I got me my good guitar (a rather stunning vintage vehicle). When I had the oportunity to play a Lloyd Loar F-5 I needed a couple of days to get my listening habits back to "normal". This experience changed my understanding of mando tone and playing forever.

As a summary I´d like to propose the idea that even though experience is the key to finding out about the "good" in an instrument, even the newbie will be able to hear tone quality and experience playability to a certain extent.

Finally - even though I like to hear soundclips and see videos of instruments on the cafe - a recording (and a video) will not display the true musical qualities of an instrument.

Even when you play or listen to the same instrument there are differences in the sound. So there´s no viable generalizatzion of different instruments´ qualities.

[Michael Gowell]

Speaking of a guide to buying a mandolin, I've seen a couple of 'How to Buy a Mandolin' articles...back in issues of 'Frets' and 'Mandolin World News' and other publications from the '70's and '80's. I've probably got a photocopy of at least one of those articles back in my files. Good advice from experienced [now famous] players/teachers on buying and maintaining old gibsons, articles about working luthiers and their instruments, rigorous reviews of the first wave of pacrim instruments. Thousands of people were acquiring musical educations through their monthly/quarterly purchase of these publications at newsstands and instrument stores, and through subscriptions, so that it was a lively scene in modern mandolin literature. Dawg used to write a lot, and Dix & Niles & The Other Usual Suspects. Like others, I've got a substantial print collection from that material, and I'm sure there are library-level complete runs. Some of it digitized already? Pretty easy to post an (edited?) collection of links.

Maybe someone should do a parallel project in a new medium to do what words can't, provide actual sound and pictures.

[Doug Hoople]

As far as looking to recordings for sonic clues go, you can pretty much forget about digital formats. They can be likened to articles of clothing that have had much of their threads and stitching removed to reduce their weight/durability (file size) but still seem to "look alright". They will tell you next to nothing about the deeper guts of a fine instrument. Vinyl LPs were another matter, but that is another topic.

OT alert. OT alert.

What is it about vinyl that makes people make such extravagant claims for it? Vinyl is inherently lossier than digital, so it's simply mythology that says there's greater "purity" in it. Vinyl is so limited that whatever goes onto it has to be processed so that those limitations aren't exceeded.

Vinyl is warmer, yes, but that's because all the sonic tops have been lopped off in order to keep the grooves from spilling into each other. And the bass has been rolled off, too, for the same reason. That's what some people call accurate reproduction???

Sorry, but since the vinyl myth was referenced and acknowledged later in the thread without challenge, I had to say something.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled topic. Please, no flames.

[Big Joe]

We haven't really mentioned that "beginner" may mean only to the mandolin and not to music or stringed instruments. Recently I had a violinist with the Symphony Orchestra in Nashville come in looking for a mandolin. He was not sure he would be able to play (yeah right... I giggled as well) and did not want to spend very much money on a mandolin. We talked for awhile. I soon realized this was a real musician with classical training that was used to playing very expensive violins and bows. He knew great tone and I knew he would never be satisfied with an entry level instrument. In this case we continued to talk. He quickly realized he would not be satisfied with an entry level either. For him appearance was not an issue in any way, and he could care less about A or F. He just wanted a good sounding mandolin at a reasonable price. Fortunately, that was pretty easy to take care of.

When I first began playing mandolin I had played guitar and bass for a long time, and even played banjo, dobro, and pedal steel before mandolin. I know.... steel guitar... it was a short lived segment of my life I still have nightmares about :) . I knew nothing about mandolins, but knew when one sounded better than another in the price range I could come up with. I would not have been very pleased with a 100 mandolin.

For the player who has no experience in playing the more entry level may satisfy for a while, but not for those who have played at any reasonable level for long. Just my opinon.

[citycountryguy]

OK, I fit many of the descriptions here of the kind of person you may be talking about, so I'm going to chime in....(I've been lurking for a couple of months but not posting much)....

I'm a guitar player/singer/songwriter guy--have played guitar forever, perform regularly at many folk/acoustic oriented venues, but know relatively little about bluegrass. About a year ago I started becoming very interested in the mandolin, and picked one up (OK, I started well--with a Collings MT--at least I think it's a pretty good instrument).

Since that time, I've become even more interested in mandolin music in all forms, and especially in learning more about bluegrass, as I do have that in my heritage (from the southern Appalachians) even though I kind of rebelled against it in my youth...

To top it off, my wife is Irish, a world class singer, and wants to do more traditional stuff from her roots as well at times when we perform...

I've listened to lots of instruments in the last year, and to a lot of mandolin music of all types--comparing and contrasting the sounds, and what I like and don't. Even though I think of myself as an informed musician who understands tone a bit, at least, I still feel like a complete newbie when it comes understanding the desired traits of the mandolin.
And I'm not sure how, except time and exposure, to get it, although what is being written about would be of great interest to me--showing different examples/qualities of different instruments.

What does a Loar sound like, really, for example? Isn't there a great deal of variation in Loars that are still around? What are the key characteristics of a "desired" Loar tone? And how does that fit into a particular genre--in this case, bluegrass, obviously....

I've read a lot here about volume and loudness, for example, as almost always being a "good" thing in sound. Yet, I've heard some mandolins that I thought had incredible tone that probably weren't as loud as some that I've heard that I thought were kind of one dimensional in tone. So which is the better instrument for what--the more textured but not quite as loud one, or the "simpler" tone that was louder. As I begin to take the mandolin out to play with folks in jams or look for opportunities to do some "genre shifting" to bluegrass on occasion (I know what I do in our duo is fundamentally a different experience and musical expression), what will be important--volume? "overtones?" "woody" sound? "dark sound?" the "bark"? the chop?

What's a good bark? What's a good chop? On recordings I've heard those things sound very different based on the players, and presumably the instruments.

I do think illustrations of different sound examples, without quantifying them as "good or bad" perhaps, could be useful for someone like me, although in reading this I get all of the reasons why it's difficult to do. But, as I've read in another thread, there simply aren't that many mandolin players or opportunities around compared to guitars, so the learning curve seems to take longer. Even if the audio quality wasn't like being in the room with the instruments, being able to hear them compared side by side would be informative for folks like me, and I'm guessing many others as well. I appreciate the discussion and the effort, and would love to see something come out of this.

michael

[brianf]

If you are a beginner, you will get sore finger tips, and complaints from those who hear you practice. These will dampen your enthusiasm. Therefore, pick the mandolin which gives you the most 'pleasing' sound, without regard for the other many colorful descriptions of sound quality. This will make you want to keep playing, whatever obstacles might be placed in your way.:mandosmiley: