Tenor guitar: a way to better mandolin skills

[Bernie Daniel]

About six months or so I acquired a tenor guitar and 3 months ago started playing it on a regular (daily) basis. I believe since then my left hand skills on the mandolin have increased markedly.

You need to work all your digits on your fretting hand, all the time, on the tenor and you have to really stretch those fingers.

Of course the 6-string guitar also requires stretching (relative to the mando) as well but with the tenor the patterns are also the same.

I would imagine tenor guitar and banjo players find the mandolin a very easy instrument to become proficient on?

This is obviously not a profound insight but I think I got a lot more than I expected from the tenor guitar and tenor banjo as well!

[John Flynn]

I experienced the same thing when I got an octave mandolin. I had an adjustment period where I really had to work my pinkie just to play stuff I already knew how to play. Sometimes I would get a "burn," like you can get with weightlifting, in the tendons and muscles that move the fingers. But once I got acclimated to it, I was able to translate that new-found finger stretch and pinkie strength back to the regular mandolin. In situations where I used to either move positions to get a note or have to consciously think about having my pinkie get the note, now the pinkie is just "there" automatically, very stong and confident.

I recently got a tenor banjo. It has a shorter scale than the OM and a lot less string tension, so it's like the brakes are really off on my left hand now. It's just a blast to play. What I like about playing Irish trad on the banjo is the challenges to the right hand, with all the trebles and triplets, which is what I am really working on now. It requires a level of relaxation and precision beyond what I had developed on the mandolin. I hope to be translating that back to the smaller instrument at some point also.

[montanasteve]

It actually made it harder for me to play the mandolin since I started playing the tenor banjo:(. The left hand works better on mando now, but my right hand gets tangled in the extra strings and string spacing.

oh, and whats a treble?

[Bernie Daniel]

montanasteve: but my right hand gets tangled in the extra strings and string spacing.

Not following you totally here -- are you trying to fingerpick the mandolin? Or are you saying your PICK is getting caught between the courses? I imagine you might be trying to "dig" too deep into the strings or perhaps you are holding your pick too tight?

However, my comment on improvement was mostly about left (fretting) hand changes.

The only issues I have had on the right hand were other direction -- getting used to the slack feeling of tenor banjo strings -- compared to the more taut ones on the mandolin.

[John Flynn]

oh, and whats a treble?
According to Wikipedia, "The bow-hand fiddle ornament (or in our case, a pick-hand banjo or mandolin ornament) which splits a single note into a triplet typically comprising three notes of the same pitch is called 'trebling' by Irish traditional musicians." So a treble is really just a type of triplet that has the distinction of being an oranament, as opposed to part of the tune itself and replacing a single note, as opposed to a run between notes, which is typically just referred to as simply a "triplet" or a hammer-on-pull-off or pull-off-hammer-on triplet, which is often referred to as a "cut." I also feel like an Irish treble has a certain timing distinct from pure music theory triplet. The three notes don't have equal values and emphasis. The first note of the treble is always emphasized, as is the first note after the treble. There is probably more to it than that. For me, it's one of those "I can't describe it, but I know it when I hear it" things.

[montanasteve]

So it's just a differently accented triplet? That makes sense I suppose.

I meant i get tangled in the courses because im used to playing 4 single strings(hardly ever play my mando anymore). It always throws me off. and it seems like the spacing between the strings on a banjo is wider than on the mando...:)

[bevb]

:confused: You could take four mandolin strings off so it's just single course. I've done this with mine after playing tenor banjo and electric mando so I don't 'trip up' !

[montanasteve]

eh, I dont really play my mando anymore really. I've been leaning more towards getting a tenor guitar to get a break from the banjo sound sometimes and to irritate my roommates less. Plus then the transition wouldn't be as rough.

[danb]

I find playing a tenor guitar/banjo or an octave also helps my left hand strength. Mandolin seems easier after a bash on a longer neck for me too.

[tburcham]

It will definitely make you use the pinky finger and I believe that has helped me get the pinky into the action more in my Mando playing.

[Jock]

I'm starting to divorce mandolin and tenor banjo from each other in my head, which is a good thing for me and a bit of a development in my playing (maybe).

Both require a different approach as the techniques required to get the best from them are different (for both the left and right hands). I'd forever mess myself up with fingering when going from one to the other. Now I'm beginning to look at them as perhaps I should have all a long, different instruments that share the same string tuning relationship, V's across 4 strings and that is where the relationship ends for me. I've even started playing different stuff on each.

Of course anything I can play on one I can play on the other, anything learned on the one I can port to the other and I consider all playing to be of benefit for both. But for me it's better to divorce them because the benefit isn't a true 2 way street. The mandolin dose benefit from my banjo playing but not the other way round to the same extent. Having divorced them in my mind my tenor playing has benefited.

[Bernie Daniel]

Jock:The mandolin dose benefit from my banjo playing but not the other way round to the same extent. Having divorced them in my mind my tenor playing has benefited.

Interesting. I see your point. However, in my case, I do feel that my tenor guitar playing also benefits from my time on the mandolin as well.

For some reason it is easier for me to learn new tunes, or compose or to come up with ornamentions on the mandolin -- I just feel more confident and feel that I have the fretboard more "under my control" with the mandolin compared to the tenor guitar, banjo or mandocello.

I then transfer these new ideas learned on the mandolin to the larger instruments -- with necessary modifications for larger distance between frets.

My mandola is in between these and may even be better orientation for the tenors as it is in the same tuning (I use CGDA) for both.

Regardless it keeps things fun.

[Jock]

When learning tunes on the guitar that involved a long stretch or stretches I would often capo the guitar on the 3rd or 5th fret and work the capo back over a week or so, thus training my hand to play the tune to pitch gradually (got to play to the pitch that everyone else is using if you want to play along).

The problem with the same approach from mandolin to tenor, for me, is that I actually use different left hand technique/position/fingering for both instruments. Where learning a tune on mandolin will teach me where my fingers are to go on the tenor, what the mandolin technique doesn't teach me is, how to actually fret the same tune on the tenor, I still have to learn that tenor element which can be difficult/impossible for me on the fly. So, as mentioned in my earlier post, I've started divorcing the two from each other to help avoid finger confusion.

My mandolin nut equates to my tenor's 7th fret (approximately) and therefore the fingering (for trad tunes) is different regardless of the system used (unlike the gradually lowered capo'd guitar where the finger technique is exactly the same only a little more stretched as the capo nears the nut).

[Bernie Daniel]

Jock: I would often capo the guitar on the 3rd or 5th fret and work the capo back over a week or so,

Hmmm -- I actually never thought about using a capo on a tenor but I guess it would work like any other instrument. You probably use a banjo capo I suppose?

I have second, inexpensive tenor that is strung and tuned like a octave mandolin that is a useful transition and like I say the mandola is very useful in that regard. It is like playing a mandolin-sized tenor guitar :)

[Jock]

Hmmm -- I actually never thought about using a capo on a tenor but I guess it would work like any other instrument. You probably use a banjo capo I suppose?

I have second, inexpensive tenor that is strung and tuned like a octave mandolin that is a useful transition and like I say the mandola is very useful in that regard. It is like playing a mandolin-sized tenor guitar :)

Bernie, I should have been clearer but I was referring to the good old days when I played 6 string guitar exclusively. But I'd think if there were tunes that involved long stretches (as most stuff would involve on the common 19" 3/4 to 23" tenor scale lengths unless your using "a finger a fret", even then there's a world of difference from mandolin to 23" scale length) you could easily capo up and work it back to the nut gradually, it certainly worked for me on the 6 string.

As to capo's I just have a standard guitar "kyser" which works on my banjo if you take a little care to place it properly.