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View Full Version : Open call for illiterate mandolinists



Scotti Adams
Dec-14-2009, 1:41pm
Courtesy of www.thebluegrassblog.com


Joe Carr, Associate Professor of Music at South Plains College in Levelland, TX, is looking for a few mandolin players who don’t read music – but would like to.

He is working on a brief book on this topic, How to Read Standard Music Notation for the Mandolin, and is hoping that a few volunteers will give his method a try and offer constructive feedback. Anyone who would like to take it for a spin (no charge) is invited to contact him by email.

Joe made his bones as a long-time member of Country Gazette in the 1970s and ’80s, and has several dozen titles under his name from Mel Bay Publications. He has been teaching both mandolin and guitar at South Plains since 1984.

walt33
Dec-14-2009, 1:49pm
Here be the addy:

jcarr *at* southplainscollege *dot* edu

Hope this doesn't violate some sort of etiquette. I'll take the post down, if it does.

Walt

toddjoles
Dec-14-2009, 2:04pm
Great timing on this! I had a hard time this year trying to locate Christmas music this year that was both in correct key for our singers and in the correct format: notation for the fiddles and tab for the guitars and mandos and easy enough for everyone to play (we have a wide range of skill levels). Learning notation would eliminate these issues. I just sent off an e-mail.

Thanks!

mandroid
Dec-14-2009, 2:56pm
Got the jist of what It is supposed to say.. Mnemonics and such time values to the notes, etc.
, but It still is a molasses at January rate, not real time, decades later.. and I invariably lose my place on the page..

so I stopped going to the local Celtic session since it was a room full of trained sight-readers and fiddle/violin students. Hard room walls and my aging ears didn't help..

MikeEdgerton
Dec-14-2009, 3:12pm
Scotti, you need to get here earlier :)

NewsFetcher early this morning (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57428)

walt33
Dec-14-2009, 4:29pm
. . . I stopped going to the local Celtic session since it was a room full of trained sight-readers and fiddle/violin students.

I have a friend who goes to a slow session in Massachusetts where they use sheet music. She says everybody just seems to read, and they're lost without the notation. Apparently the sheets have become a crutch. I thought folk music, or trad anyway, is supposed to be "in" you, so once you learn it from the sheets, you should throw 'em away and call up the tunes from deep down inside.

In a way I'm glad I don't read, although I did e-mail the professor!

Walt

Scotti Adams
Dec-14-2009, 5:40pm
Scotti, you need to get here earlier :)

NewsFetcher early this morning (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57428)

Ha..had a rough morning or I would have.

Steve L
Dec-14-2009, 5:46pm
Irish/Scottish sessions where people are sight reading the tunes is far more the exception than the rule. If you really want to play that music, the first thing you should do is stay away from there.

allenhopkins
Dec-14-2009, 8:50pm
Local fiddle club works from sheet music at their "jams," but not everyone uses them. Glenna, the fiddler in my Jewish-music trio, is classically trained and learns from sheet music, rather than by ear, but she can assimilate the tunes and performs without needing to read. Which, by the way, is the rule for classical soloists; you don't see a featured violinist reading a concerto score, although the orchestral musicians are working from the score.

I read to learn some tunes, but put away the sheet music as soon as I can. I have never seen a Celtic seisun or bluegrass jam where the musicians were working from sheet music, although I've seen some where singers had books of lyrics propped on music stands. I think that use of sheet music is more common in those situations where learning the tunes is part of the agenda, but as noted above, there are some who've played the tune 100 times and still have to have eyes fixed on the score. In those cases, I agree it's become more of a "crutch" than a necessity.

JeffD
Dec-14-2009, 8:56pm
I have a friend who goes to a slow session in Massachusetts where they use sheet music. She says everybody just seems to read, and they're lost without the notation. Apparently the sheets have become a crutch. I thought folk music, or trad anyway, is supposed to be "in" you, so once you learn it from the sheets, you should throw 'em away and call up the tunes from deep down inside.

In a way I'm glad I don't read, although I did e-mail the professor!

Walt

I started out as a paper trained musician. It helps immensly.

Its not the reading that ties them down, its the not putting the sheet music aside.

chasgrav
Dec-15-2009, 8:50am
Music notation is a useful tool --- not necessary, but useful. I learn frameworks for a lot of tunes from the written page. But I would NEVER bring sheet music to a jam or session. And once I memorize a tune, the notation gets stored away.

Non-classical musicians need to resist becoming a slave to the page, IMO.

AlanN
Dec-15-2009, 8:58am
It's like the guy who brings his 3-ring binders to the jam. Can't pick/sing a tune without looking at the book.

CES
Dec-15-2009, 8:59am
I've made a conscious effort of late (as I'm trying as a beginner to play with others more often) to memorize every tune I learn. It's really not hard as long as I revisit them fairly regularly, but lyrics (especially after a few frosty beverages) can be challenging. I usually end up giving the music to my wife (who sings) and play from memory once we get going.

That said, I think being able to read opens up a world of music I may not otherwise get the chance to be exposed to...think of all the fiddle/violin music, piano music, heck anything with NOTES that you can play without having to pick it slowly out or wait for someone else to tab it...

I'm trapped in between...I can read the staff, but still think in sax fingerings...

fatt-dad
Dec-15-2009, 9:29am
Scotti,

I'm a willing volunteer. For background, I can read intervals when I sing, but struggle to get mandolin music off of standard notation. Tab I can do; however.

Feel free to message me with further information. I'd like to make the effort!

f-d

journeybear
Dec-15-2009, 9:36am
... I think being able to read opens up a world of music I may not otherwise get the chance to be exposed to...think of all the fiddle/violin music, piano music, heck anything with NOTES that you can play without having to pick it slowly out or wait for someone else to tab it...

I agree. Being able to read music means you have access to much more music than you might ever have experienced otherwise. I can read music, barely, but not sight-read. That is, I couldn't just turn to a page and play along, in tempo. I can pick out the notes all right, I just have to ... pick out the notes. :grin:


It's like the guy who brings his 3-ring binders to the jam. Can't pick/sing a tune without looking at the book.

I played a few gigs last year with a fiddler who brought sheet music, a music stand, and sat while we played - and this was Cajun music!:disbelief: This is one genre of music where you're really supposed to feel it, not play someone's transcription note for note. And make no mistake, that's what his sheet music was - one person's transcription - or personal interpretation - of well-known tunes. I looked at his books, and each version of the same song was different. :confused: We did more gigs with another fiddler, who refused to learn even the themes for any of the tunes - he just wanted to jam - but at least had a good feel for the music. The perfect guy would have been somewhere in between. ;)

Somewhere along the line you have to learn how to follow a chord progression and suss out the melody of a tune on your own, and nine times out of ten that's all you have to do for a gig. That other 10% is supposed to be for either carefully arranged material or self-expression - your creative input.


I started out as a paper trained musician. It helps immensely...

Sadly, I've known too many musicians who seem to have skipped this step in their personal hygiene development or never advanced beyond - oh, you meant ... never mind! :redface:

farmerjones
Dec-15-2009, 10:26am
i've built up quite alot of compensation similar to a text illiterate. I pride myself on my fast & accurate ear. Even a fair working knowledge of theory. But i'm not going to fool myself into thinking i'm not missing out on a whole bunch of free and available content. I wrote him. We'll see what happens.

JeffD
Dec-15-2009, 11:50am
It's like the guy who brings his 3-ring binders to the jam. Can't pick/sing a tune without looking at the book.

But plays a whole lot of really great tunes that everyone loves and can't wait till he shows up cause they love playing with him and he really "makes" the jam because of his enthusiasm for the old tunes.



C'mon, lets get our priorities.

Whether someone has sheet music in front of them or not makes not much difference, as long as music comes out of the sound hole.

I tend to learn both from tunebooks and by ear, and I play mostly without music infront of me but occationally with. Who cares. Its all good, often real good.

JeffD
Dec-15-2009, 11:51am
I think being able to read opens up a world of music I may not otherwise get the chance to be exposed to...think of all the fiddle/violin music, piano music, heck anything with NOTES that you can play...

There it is.

JeffD
Dec-15-2009, 11:54am
"I thought folk music, or trad anyway, is supposed to be "in" you, so once you learn it from the sheets, you should throw 'em away and call up the tunes from deep down inside.

In a way I'm glad I don't read,..."



There is nothing in me. Nothing deep down inside. I have seen the x-rays. :grin:


There is no "should" - there are many examples of traditional musicians who collected written out examples of waltzes or dance tunes. Besides which, who cares. You can have a real authentic feeling for the music either way.

There is no substitute for learning to read music.

There is no substitute for learning to play by ear.

They don't compensate each other. The musician who only reads would benefit from learning to play by ear and without music. The musician who only plays by ear would benefit from learning to read music.

What ever a musician is unable to do is a limitation.

AlanN
Dec-15-2009, 12:01pm
But plays a whole lot of really great tunes that everyone loves and can't wait till he shows up cause they love playing with him and he really "makes" the jam because of his enthusiasm for the old tunes.

Maybe your guy is like that, mine ain't.

No argument here from me.

ColdBeerGoCubs
Dec-15-2009, 1:15pm
I don't see how acquiring another skill can be a bad thing, as long as its not used as a crutch of any type. That being said, I sent an email. Starting off with the mandolin, well any instrument I guess is a daunting, daunting task. I'll gladly take in any and all information that I can find.

Jack Roberts
Dec-15-2009, 3:03pm
This is always a fun topic.

I learned to read music for the piano but could never make the transition to mandolin or guitar. So I started learning with tab, then by ear. Then I took up fiddle where I needed to learn to read notation and found out is is EASY to learn notes for mandolin (there being so few of them). Now I am back to learning by ear.

You're better off learning to do things more than one way. Some ways of playing, such as cross pickng in up the neck positions, are best recorded with tab, notation is almost universal and allows you to learn music even if you can't hear it, and playing by ear is the best way to learn special techniques.

All said, learning notation is not particularly hard, and makes a world of music that you couldn't play before available for your enjoyment.

GRW3
Dec-15-2009, 3:51pm
I can read music OK but I gave up sight reading after the last band sight reading competition when I was in high school. The biggest challange I had was adjusting to treble clef since I played trombone in the bass clef. (Every Good Boy Does Fine and FACE are the port and starboard of the treble clef.)

I usually need lyrics, if anything, to work from. With chord placement is sort of an aid but very often this has to be modified because it is just wrong. I mostly try to memorize the songs I do. This stems from being in band and hating to carry the lyre and flip music book when marching. Habits die hard.

Joe is still pushing the frontier of mandolin learning despite his health issues. Two years ago at Camp Bluegrass he gave the mandolin students a set of pages from his new mandolin tune primer where he decontructed several popular tunes to their root structure, the basic tune that is. I found that incerdibly helpful. Not just for the tunes he provided but also with tunes being learned on the fly. First question is "what's the key?", second is "what's the basic tune?".

catmandu2
Dec-15-2009, 5:36pm
I started out as a paper trained musician.

Same here. However, I don't believe I ever "read" any folk material, unless I was notating for someone else, or something.