Starter bowlback.

[telepbrman]

On the old e-bay I saw a surf city bowl back for around $140.oo, would this be the right idea for a starter bowlback mandolin? If not, what might I look for? Thanks for your time and help, dy.

[Bob A]

There's a ton of firewood on ebay, masquerading as mandolins. For a starter instrument you might be well advised to consider some of the better US instruments, like Vega or Martin. However, with any old bowlback, there's lingering horrors in the shadows. Many were strung with modern mandolin strings, which are fine for carved-top instruments like Gibson, but they'll destroy a lightly made bowlback in short order, usually by trashing the neck. Sadly, it's so difficult to address this issue for repairs that it's generally not worth the price, even if you can find a luthier who can do the job. And few can, at least here in the US.

De Meglio and others of very similar appearance are usually decent Italian instruments, but again, you have to sweat the string issue.

New instruments tend to be pricey, or of poor quality. I have a new Greek bowlback that set me back about $500, including a hard case. That's about the bottom, price-wise. You can frequently get a nice Vega for about that kind of money, but you have to be careful, or else know the seller.

I've had some success with midlevel old Italian instruments. They've set me back about 7-800 usually, and they've been wonderful instruments. Frequently they've needed setup or other minor work.

There's a guy who is listed under the "links" section on the cafe home page. I think it's the "Classical Mandolin" listing. I bought a nice instrument from him. I think he has something listed for about 400. If it comes with a proper setup, it might be worth considering.

Another problem with old bowlbacks is that many of them were never built to be played. They were souvenir wallhangers, and will only cause you grief.

There's a guy on ebay, I think his nickname is "trebleclef", who sells a lot of reasonable instruments, based in the UK. Many of his instruments are ex-German mandolin orchestra leftovers. He's a pretty straightforward fellow, and it's worth considering what he has available. I don't think he'd sell anything unplayable.

Of course you might hit a bargain on ebay, and luck into something good for a couple hundred or less. But if you are inexperienced, the odds don't favor you.

Speak up about your level of interest and budgetary limits, and watch the "Bowlbacks of Note" thread, where interesting stuff is mentioned, and you'll eventually find something that'll suit. Sometimes folks here have a surplus instrument they'd be willing to part with, and that's another good source. None of the regulars here would burn you.

Good hunting.

[John Bertotti]

I would look for a Vega or similar from someone who visits this board. I bought mine here and love it. There was one for sale here a month or so ago for a good price. Keep your eyes open in the thread listed above and/or put a want add in the classifieds. After reading posts here for awhile you'll have a good idea who'll be able to help when you think you've found one. John http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Eugene]

...There was [a Vega] for sale here a month or so ago for a good price.
That Vega used to belong to me. It was bought by Jeff, a local guy (well, local to me) who sometimes posts here. Last I knew he still had it and was entertaining requests for info from potential buyers. If interested, you can try to reach him to inquire after the Vega's availability by clicking here (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=Profile;CODE=03;MID=74-1056380492).

[John Bertotti]

telepbrman, If your serious I would do as Eugene suggests. If your close to it try it if not make sure you get a trial period. I don't know how representative mine is compared to other vegas but I think I hit a good solid value. Keep us informed John

[Eugene]

Because it used to be mine, I have pictures of Jeff's Vega. Voici!

[telepbrman]

Yep, a Vega looks like a good starting place, and Mandolin cafe is the best place to do the deal. I will keep an eye out here for a Vega. I am doing my research, and don't plan on making a purchase until next year or so, I just bought a Gibson 1999 A5-L from Buffalo Brothers for $2000, and my bank funds are zero for awhile. I also just purchased all the Mandolin World News issues, and that has gotten me into the classical MAS deal. This A5-L is in the mail as we speak, so I don't know if it is the one. The purpose of the A5-L is to become my number one Mando for Bluegrass and all around couch picking buddy. I know that I am interested in early romantic guitar pieces by Sor and the like, yet I want to investigate the Mandolin side rather than that of the guitar side, and I feel that a nice Vega will do the trick, while the A5-L will hold down all the other sides of my musical themes. Ok, more to come, oh yes, and it is great to get true and honest scoop from the pro's.......thanx, dy.

[Eugene]

If you like Sor et al., there is a good deal of contemporary and slightly earlier music specifically written for mandokin or mandokin-guitar duo. Most of this stuff translates very nicely to the modern mandolin. Find yourself a classical guitarist and look into the mandolin works by von/de Call, Bortolazzi, Paganini, and Gragnani. I really like Gragnani's three little Nocturnes. They were unearthed and edited for print by Carlo Aonzo and published by Berben:
Gragnani, Filippo (C. Aonzo & L. Verrini, eds.). 2002. Tre Notturni per mandolino (o violino) e chitarra. Berben, Ancona, Italy. E.4825 B.

[Martin Jonas]

There's a guy on ebay, I think his nickname is "trebleclef", who sells a lot of reasonable instruments, based in the UK. Many of his instruments are ex-German mandolin orchestra leftovers. He's a pretty straightforward fellow, and it's worth considering what he has available. I don't think he'd sell anything unplayable.
I'll second that. #Ian (aka Trebleclef) knows what he's talking about and will give you decent information, especially if you get in touch with him directly about any of the mandolins he offers on Ebay. #I've been in touch with him a number of times and he's always been very level and helpful. #I've never managed to actually buy any of his mandolins, but that's because he knows what they are really worth whereas I've been looking to take a risk on badly-described gems that turn up at house clearances at a fraction of the going rate for a well-restored, well-setup bowlback.

Martin

[Jeff_Stallard]

Yeah, my Vega is for sale. I had it in the classifieds here, but there were no takers so it's now up on Ebay. There are 7 days left and last I checked it was at $250. Here's a link: Vega auction (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3746366975&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT).

[Eugene]

Wow. Maybe I'm biased by its history in my stable, but I hope you claim more than ca. $250 for such a fine instrument, Jeff. Another piece I sold recently was a rather Spartan style 2 Brandt, almost no decor on those whatsoever. A style 2 Brandt recently sold on eBay in comparable (or very slightly lesser) condition to my ex for $460!

[Martin Jonas]

With seven days left, I wouldn't be too worried about it being at $250. Most big bidders come in on the last day and I've seen prices double and treble in the last 30 minutes. No guarantees of anything, of course. Telepbrman has a big advantage over other bidders though: they have to bid blind, whereas he has got reliable testimony of a good quality playable instrument!

Martin

[Jeff_Stallard]

I'm all for the bid tripling!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Part of me wants to cancel the auction and keep it, but it needs a better home than mine.

[Jim Garber]

Eugene and Jeff:
Just for my info: is this a style 2 Vega?

Jim

[Eugene]

Frankly, I don't know. #It is way below the piece you label style 3. #I own a couple Vega pieces that are both just a bit more and a bit less fancy, and have seen several that are way less fancy. #I don't have any period Vega catalogs for reference.

[Jeff_Stallard]

Umm...yeah, what he said.

[Martin Jonas]

The title of this thread is now a bit misleading -- Jeff's Vega is certainly much more than a "starter bowlback", which sounds a lot like that favourite euphemism for low-end instruments: "student model". It just so happens that market prices for used quality bowlbacks are so ludicrously low that one can get a high-end one for the price of a student violin. Having been a buyer more recently than a seller, I'm not complaining about that...

Martin

[Eugene]

Having been a buyer more recently than a seller, I'm not complaining about that...
Having done a little (very little) of each in recent times, I celebrate this fact as often as I curse it. It's an odd market where the informed, vintage-savvy shopper can score a classic, middle-class instrument of Brazilian rosewood for less money than a new student model of little or no quality whatsoever. Granted, there is a little bit of risk and effort associated with procuring a functional classic, but still...

[Jim Garber]

From my catalog pages: It looks like some variant between style 1 and 2. It has a fancier pickguard than the 1 but doesn't have the fancier fretboard inlays of the style 2.

Jim

[Eugene]

What's the date of your catalog, Jim? #Models, of course, could vary through time with a general trend for progressively less decoration as the heyday fizzled. #I would guess this could be the standard style 2 from a date later than your catalog (I believe 1917 if Vega's banjo serial scheme describes the mandolins as well).

[Bob A]

Well now, it ain't just the starter models. One can purchase a professional-quality instrument, suitable for anything the repertoire can throw at you, for $1500-3500. This includes the best of the current production as well as instruments by the finest makers of the century. Think of R. Calace, a combination of Lloyd Loar, Bill Monroe (forgive me) and who shall we name as a topnotch composer? all wrapped into one guy. Buy one of his mandolins for three grand? Sure. Personally, I've bet the farm on high-end bowlbacks, and if I sold them all I still couldn't afford a Gilchrist or Monteleone. Not that I'd ever consider that route; I'm having too much fun playing the smorgasbord I have on hand.

[Eugene]

One of these days, the rest of the mandoworld will catch up with what we already know and pickins'll get slim. I think it may already be underway as evidenced by the recent Brandt sale and numerous others.

[Alex Timmerman]

Yes Eugene, I agree with you. Still feel sorry about that Brandt slipping through my fingers...




http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[Eugene]

I have seen one Brandt with a solid mother of pearl fingerboard, 40+ odd ribs, and a gorgeously figured maple neck; it was at Michigan's Elderly Instruments several years back, before I even knew the Cafe existed. In any event, I think that's the Brandt for you, Alex.

[John Craton]

There's a guy on ebay, I think his nickname is "trebleclef", who sells a lot of reasonable instruments, based in the UK. ...
I'll second that. #Ian (aka Trebleclef) knows what he's talking about and will give you decent information, especially if you get in touch with him directly about any of the mandolins he offers on Ebay. #I've been in touch with him a number of times and he's always been very level and helpful. #I've never managed to actually buy any of his mandolins,
And I shall put forth another endorsement of Ian (trebleclef528 on eBay). He is a seller you can trust, and he will indeed be very up front about what he has available. I recently bought a Herwiga Solist from him at a very reasonable price. It arrived promptly (well, as promptly as the postal service will allow) and was expertly packaged. The instrument was exactly as described. I believe you can rest assured of an honest description of his mandolins on eBay. He also will answer questions you have before bidding if need be. Ian told me it would be best to restring this one, and he was quite correct. It came with a rather old and unidentifiable set of round-wound strings that appeared to be fairly high tension. I strung it with a set of medium Thomastiks, and it responds quite well.

Most of the German instruments seem to be designed for medium tension, but I'm wondering whether anyone has tried light strings on comparable mandos. I have a set on order for another mandolin, but I'm considering trying them on the Herwiga. Any thoughts?

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Operaguy,

Yes I have tried that on the older German replicas of Italian mandolins (copies of Neapolitan- and Roman mandolins, roughly speeking those made between ±1930 and ± 1960ties). I took away the flat-wound (often Thomastik) strings and restrung them with (polished) round-wound medium (or light - depending on the healthiness of the mandolin) Bronce strings of the Lenzner company.

The result (in my opinion) was that the instruments really came to live again, having now a far better projection and a much longer sustain. The overall quality of sound was much more one of ´purity of sound´ of what the soundbox of each mandolin had to offer. The sound was also noticable penetrating and louder than with flat-wound strings.
Of course especially so when played with a hard tortoise shell (or immitation celluloid) plectrum.

Recently one of my students re-strung in this way (with a medium round-wound set) his 1995 Manfred Brauer Modern German mandolin (a nice instrument in itself) and we found that all of the above outcomes can again be said for this (an likely all) Modern German mandolin(s).


But of course this is all a matter of taste.

And of the willingness and the perseverance to study with a plectrum made of a harder material, rather than with the soft plastic black, blue and white German ones.


Many greetings and succes,

Alex

[John Craton]

Yes I have tried that on the older German replicas of Italian mandolins (copies of Neapolitan- and Roman mandolins, ... Many greetings and succes,

Thanks for the input, Alex, and also for the welcome. I am indeed new to the group, though I have been lurking awhile. It seems a lot of awfully nice people pick mandolins!

Your experience gives me more confidence in trying a light string on the Herwiga. I'll let the new set of mediums wear out a bit first, but I will be sure to let you know my impressions of a set of light tensions when I try them.

I will confess to being partial to flat-wounds, however, if for no other reason than to eliminate the "whick" that the callouses make when changing positions. And I'm also a staunch devotee of the Wolle plectrum ... though as you say, it's all a matter of taste. When I first took up the mandolin as a teenager I used a stiffer pick, but old age and injuries have caught up with me. A couple years ago I had a bad injury to my right index finger which resulted in the finger being permanently bent. It put the kabosch to my piano playing (I do well just to accompany my students in the studio these days), which is one reason I decided to take up the mandolin again. (Yeah, it was great getting reacquainted with those blisters!) Anyway, the Wolle plectrum fits perfectly in my deformed hand and allows me much better control than the smooth picks I've tried. And since I have very little feeling in my finger, the design permits me to maintain a good pick orientation. I almost have to pry the thing out of my hand when I'm done. Plus, to me, the thicker, softer picks like the Wolle give a much mellower tone that's well suited for most classical pieces, especially with guitar accompaniment.

Them's my thoughts, at any rate. But as I tell my students, "Whatever works!"