Wow.1924 Gibson A-4 snakehead w/ Virzi on ebay! [Archive]

View Full Version : Wow.1924 Gibson A-4 snakehead w/ Virzi on ebay!

Goodin

Dec-10-2009, 10:59am

http://cgi.ebay.com/Gibson-A-4-Mandolin-1924-Snakehead-w-Virzi_W0QQitemZ170418289349QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item27adb8bac5

Dan have you archived this one?

sgarrity

Dec-16-2009, 12:03pm

About 4 hours left.....

JeffD

Dec-16-2009, 12:38pm

What a beauty. Seems there might be an issue with the bridge, looks good other than that.

sgarrity

Dec-16-2009, 12:57pm

Yeh, it's probably gonna need to see a luthier soon. I'm trying very hard not to bid on this one but there just seem to be a few issues I'm not sure I'm comfortble with, especially buying from ebay. The bridge is cracked, it appears to be as low as it will go which makes me wonder, doesn't have the original case.....but it's still a snakehead A4 which is an extremely desireable instrument!

Darryl Wolfe

Dec-16-2009, 1:03pm

Mike Black

Dec-16-2009, 1:04pm

Dan have you archived this one?

Looks as if the seller gave Dan permission to use the eBay photos for the archive (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?3930).

sgarrity

Dec-16-2009, 1:48pm

I don't really see any issues here. Cases and bridge tops are readily available. I would ask about the mar in the grain line two inches off the bass end of the bridge. I would want to be sure that is not an induced crack on the inside of the top under the line that is visible. I don't think it is, but that is a deal killer if so

This is exactly why I haven't really gotten into the vintage market. I just don't know enough about exactly what to look for. Looks like someone might get a decent deal on this one.....

Goodin

Dec-16-2009, 4:13pm

A new bridge top is an easy fix for $25 bucks. And you get to keep the original bottom part of the bridge that has the patent stamp on it. The bridge is low because either the owner likes the action super low or due to the neck angle, or both. Probably not an issue. Looks like a great mandolin to me.

sgarrity

Dec-16-2009, 4:38pm

Went for $6988.....too rich for my blood. And actually more than I thought it would go for!

Rob Gerety

Dec-16-2009, 6:21pm

Looks beautiful doesn't it. "No returns accepted". That is a deal killer for me.

Jim Garber

Dec-16-2009, 10:04pm

Looks beautiful doesn't it. "No returns accepted". That is a deal killer for me.

I would always check with the seller if I were seriously interested. Most people would understand esp buying something sight unseen and would honor some sort of approval period. otherwise, if they were adamant about that policy I would probably walk away.

Gail Hester

Dec-17-2009, 2:05am

Great looking mandolin. I hope someone here bought it so that we can hear all about it.

Concerning the auction, the thing I have learned to be leery of is the opening line, “I am selling this for a friend of mine.” In my experience that has been code for stand buy; I'm commencing to play dumb and can not be held accountable.

Rob Gerety

Dec-17-2009, 7:47am

Yes, I agree Gail. Especially when you combine that with a no returns under any circumstances policy. These are red flags in eBay land. I believe those red flags hold down the price by putting off a certain number of serious collectors from the competitive auction process.

I'm by no means expert on these mandos - but the one other thing that bothers me about the pictures was the picture of the crack in the saddle. The crack would not bother me in and of iteslf - what worried me was the fact that the saddle saddle is set extremely low. My question is - why is the saddle set so low? The only reason that pops into my head as a possibility is sunken top syndrome. None of the pictures make the top condition clear. Its looks good - except for that darn saddle. So even if I were considering overlooking the red flags - I would want an explanation and pictures to rule out sunken top syndrome.

I sure hope it turns out all my fears are baseless and the buyer ends up with a terrific instrument at a reasonable price -chances are that is exactly what happened.

JLeather

Dec-17-2009, 10:06am

One odd thing about eBay and their "no returns accepted" policy is that it directly contradicts PayPal (which eBay owns and operates, and lately all but forces you to use in their auctions). In PayPal, there is always the "Significantly Not As Described" complaint. I have been a seller, and have read many other horror stories as well, in which items clearly marked "no returns accepted" have been forcibly returned via PayPal. Especially if you paid via a credit card. So if it's the no returns policy that has you worried about an eBay auction, so long as you pay with a credit card and through PayPal you actually have 2 forms of recourse. If the auction states "excellent condition" and it arrives with a cracked sunken top, you fil a PayPal dispute and tell them it was poorly described. PayPal will tell you to return it and optain proof of delivery (not just proof of shipment) and they will then forcibly credit you back from the seller's account.

If they don't, then you can call your CC company and tell them you paid for an item and it didn't arrive in acceptable condition, and they will then credit you and contact paypal to return your money as well.

Unfortunately, there are many buyers on eBay who abuse this protection, returning items that changed their minds about or making outrageous claims. It has made eBay a very difficult place to sell things, but for an item this subjective and expensive I'd feel reasonably safe using paypal that I could get my money back in spite of the "selling this for a friend" excuse.

Bill Van Liere

Dec-17-2009, 10:08am

Does anyone know anything about that little red mark that follows the serial number on the label of this instrument? I own a 24 Jr. with that same mark and know of another mandolin pretty close to mine in the archive that also has the same mark.

Thanks

Bill

mandotool

Dec-17-2009, 12:53pm

A very compelling A4...
Loar period snake...Virzi...flame back...original finish(such as it is)..structurally sound(?)
you don't see many of these..
the seller has a couple of flags on the play....
but she looks to be a fine package..
One big question would have to be..what to do about the finish condition ?...a light french polish or leave her be?? or???
a very intriguing mandolin.

I was wondering about the meaning of that red asterisk too..??

Rob Gerety

Dec-17-2009, 3:06pm

Unfortunately, there are many buyers on eBay who abuse this protection, returning items that changed their minds about or making outrageous claims. It has made eBay a very difficult place to sell things, but for an item this subjective and expensive I'd feel reasonably safe using paypal that I could get my money back in spite of the "selling this for a friend" excuse.

I know what you mean, but the problem of bad description and major hassles undoing a transaction are quite severe from the buyers side too. You end up with a hassle and perhaps a dispute about how far off the description was, etc. I don't need the hassle and I can't afford to have thousands of dollars at risk like that. A couple of hundred? Sure. $7K? Nope. If a seller looks solid in other respects, communicates well and if they will agree to a 24 hour approval period I'm good to go. Otherwise, I'm that much of a gambler. I bet the price on this particular mando would have been higher if the seller had allowed a 24 hour approval period.

sgarrity

Dec-17-2009, 3:12pm

If I was going to spend that much $$$ Id buy the one at Carmel Music that has already been gone over by a luthier and is ready to play!

Darryl Wolfe

Dec-17-2009, 3:43pm

I'm curious about Bills comment on the red asterisk mark..anybody seen this before

Bill Van Liere

Dec-17-2009, 5:21pm

Darryl - look at 77428, I have 77454 with that same mark.

mandotool

Dec-17-2009, 6:28pm

here's a look a the 77438 red Asterisk...fingers crossed

atetone

Dec-17-2009, 10:40pm

Just a wild guess, but could it be designating a Virzi-equipped mando?
Probably not if an Ajr also has the red mark?

The ebay one has a maple back,,, could it be designating maple?
I don't see anything else odd that it could be. Yet.

sgarrity

Dec-17-2009, 10:42pm

here's a look a the 77438 red Asterisk...fingers crossed

Congrats on the purchase. Those snakehead A4's are wayyyy cool!

mandotool

Dec-18-2009, 11:18am

The photo was courtesy of the seller....
I have done some sifting through the archive though and it seems that
this A4 is the earliest A Virzi listed..
as to the red asterisk ?...
I think we can rule out the flame back theory
A4 #75479 has a flame back and no asterisk..
I would be leaning towards the virzi theory..
back to sifting...

Darryl Wolfe

Dec-18-2009, 11:28am

Let's continue the asterisk question in my Gibson thread in Vintage Instruments

Goodin

Dec-18-2009, 4:04pm

Charlieshafer

Dec-18-2009, 4:54pm

I think you've got a winner. The "no returns" thing doesn't bother me, I put that in some of my listings just to discourage folks who nit-pick over stupid little things looking for a return. The hassle of re-listing over minor little issues is too great. Buyers can always contact sellers to get a comfort level. Even if this mando needs a few hundred in tune-ups, in another ten years, I bet this looks like a steal. There just aren't too many of these. Good pick, well done!

Gary S

Dec-18-2009, 5:04pm

If it is in sound condition, this is a great find. There are very few Snakehead A-4s and even fewer with Virzis. How many are listed in the Mandolin Archives?

Goodin

Dec-18-2009, 5:22pm

There are 17 documented A-4's with Virzi's on the Mandolin Archive. So, this is an exceptionally rare instrument. I think it is a steal at that price! Of course, I am very fond of the Virzi;).

Glassweb

Dec-18-2009, 5:51pm

no, i'd say it would be a steal at half that price. i don't care how rare a Virzi'd A4 snake is, most players/collectors would prefer the same model without.

Kate D.

Dec-18-2009, 7:04pm

Friends- educate me, please. What the heck is Virzi?

Goodin

Dec-18-2009, 7:42pm

Hi Kate - Check out the link below which will direct you to the Virzi social group. There you can see pics of a Virzi. Basically it's a disc 3" wide or so with two "C" holes that is suspended in the body fixed from the inside of the top. It was introduced during Loar's tenure at the Gibson plant 1922-1924 and installed in many of the F-5's and some other mandolins of the day. It gives the mandolin a more complex, sweeter, but more delicate tone. Not ideal for heavy handed bluegrassers, but works well with Irish, classical, and the like (my opinions of course). There are many, many threads describing the Virzi and debating the value of the Virzi on the Cafe so I suggest you do a search if you want to learn more.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/group.php?groupid=133

Goodin

Dec-18-2009, 7:44pm

no, i'd say it would be a steal at half that price. i don't care how rare a Virzi'd A4 snake is, most players/collectors would prefer the same model without.

Different strokes for different folks. I imagine most of these people have never heard a Virzi before either.

Kate D.

Dec-20-2009, 9:18pm

Many thanks, Goodin- I think I get the concept. I'm going to have to look inside every old gibson at the jam now and see if I can see an example of it.

Goodin

Dec-21-2009, 8:21am

Many thanks, Goodin- I think I get the concept. I'm going to have to look inside every old gibson at the jam now and see if I can see an example of it.

Well good luck with that;) I got to thinking...I wonder what percentage of mandolins out there have a Virzi? probably like 0.00001 percent or something. They are pretty rare since Gibson only installed a few hundred of them from about 1922-1924 and there are some modern builders that install them.

slim_subtle

Dec-22-2009, 1:13am

I have #79567 here...looks almost identical to the ebay one but in better condition (and has the case). It too has a Virzi, but no red asterisk. It also has the coffee-colored tuner buttons.

Goodin

Dec-22-2009, 8:44am

Hey Slim - I didn't see 79567 on the mandolin archive. If you are interested I'm sure Dan would love to get it's information and perhaps some pics for the archive. Sounds like a nice mandolin.

slim_subtle

Dec-23-2009, 12:26am

Will do soon!

danb

Dec-23-2009, 6:21am

I got to thinking...I wonder what percentage of mandolins out there have a Virzi?

Here's what's in the archive- bear in mind that we have a lot more coverage in 22-24 because of the fascination with Loars and snakeheads etc!

All instruments in the archive with virzis (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/list_mandolins.pl?virzi)

Non Loar-signed instruments with virzis (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/list_mandolins.pl?virzi_noloar). An interesting bunch- some clearly were sent back in for a retrofit, some were put in A4/H4/L4/K4 instruments

Mike Black

Dec-23-2009, 8:03am

Dan,
Are you suggesting that the red asterisk might designate that it's a retro-fit Virzi?

Goodin

Dec-23-2009, 11:38am

Dan,
Are you suggesting that the red asterisk might designate that it's a retro-fit Virzi?

I believe the Virzi myth is debunked because there is an Ajr with the red asterisk.

Perhaps the marks we're added later...maybe a dealer liked to mark all the mandolins that passed through the store with a red asterisk? Just a thought. It seems if the asterisks were added at the factory during the build they would use pencil like the rest of the serial #.

mtucker

Dec-23-2009, 6:25pm

Just a thought, but did Gibson issue dealer 'demos' that perhaps carried that red marking?

mandotool

Dec-23-2009, 11:49pm

Hey Slim... Try to get those photos up soon and I will do the same with #77438

Bill Van Liere

Dec-24-2009, 9:31am

I sent Dan some photos, including label, of 77454 (the red asterisk JR) a while back.