Is a Gil really worth over twice an Ellis or Altman? [Archive]

majorbanjo

Dec-04-2009, 8:56pm

Chris Biorkman

Dec-04-2009, 9:11pm

If you have to have a Gil, then yes. For me, no. I've played mandolins that cost twice as much as my Ellis and Kimble, and I don't necessarily think that more expensive equates to better. Gils are expensive because he has been around for a very long time making very high-quality instruments. He was doing it back when few others were, so he has built up a great reputation and his instruments are in high demand, thus the high prices.

RichM

Dec-04-2009, 9:13pm

Is a Van Gogh worth two Picassos?

There is no particular assurance that price equals quality. You have listed three extraodanarily fine builders. They all probably pay about the same for their materials. Mr. Gilchrist, for the time being, gets paid more for his time. Is it worth it? Only you can be the judge, but there are enough people who think so that he can command the higher price.

When you start gauging quality by price, you go down a slipperly slope. While at some level, there's probably truth to it (ie, most $5000 mandolins I've played have been better instruments than most $500 mandolins I've played), once you're up in the stratosphere of the superbuilders, that becomes less meaningful. Remember, Steve Gilchrist wasn't always Steve Gilchrist. Once upon a time, he was an unknown builder. But he built stuff good enough that he got a stellar reputation, and that reputation allowed him to charge a lot of money for his time. Is a Gilchrist worth it? Well, if I had a spare 25 large, I'd buy one. But I don't, I probably won't ever, and I'm not losing any sleep over it.

I'd say that by the time you have $10K+ to spend on a mandolin, you're likely to end up with a darn fine instrument (unless you're really careless with your money). Then the only question is which darn fine instrument appeals to you the most.

Don Grieser

Dec-04-2009, 9:20pm

:popcorn:

sgarrity

Dec-04-2009, 9:43pm

Is a Posch worth twice what a Martin is??? Gils are extremely high quality mandolins. I've played a handful and most were great, some were just good. Gils have a unique "feel" to them that is very vintage-like IMHO. His fit and finish is flawless. There are a lot of choices when you hit the $10k mark. Ellis makes a darn fine mandolin with great tone and excellent fit and finish. I have no personal experience with Altmans.

Earl Gamage

Dec-04-2009, 10:17pm

I've been lucky enough to hear a Gilcrist and an Ellis and play the Ellis side by side. I'd say they are certainly worth the money if you have that kind of cash. No strain on the family budget or anything like that. My teacher has both.

He's an awesome player but I can still hear that both mandolins are very fine. Even when I played the Ellis the chords sounded great.

As far as the Gil being worth 2x the Ellis it is if that's what you want. They are both a luzury type item anyway.

Kevin Knippa

Dec-05-2009, 12:04am

I know two players who have owned Gilchrists for a good number of years and both of them purchased Ellis F's in the last year or so.

Ivan Kelsall

Dec-05-2009, 2:49am

I've never had the luxury of playing either. My personal opinion is this :- If they are both good sounding instruments to your ear & would suit your style of playing & music genre,then no.
Only if one or the other has that something 'extra' that you simply must have,could you make a really positive choice between them. It maybe that the Ellis comes out on top,then again,it could be the Gil.
The kudos for owning a high priced instrument are very tempting to some folk - i've no problem with that - i'd love to own a Gil.or a Dude.. But, If i could afford the cash to be able to make the choice between a $10,000 Mandolin & a $30,000 one,then it's all down to sound & playability for me, & may the better instrument win,
Ivan

Pete Martin

Dec-05-2009, 4:28pm

If the Gilchrist has the sound you want, yes. If the Ellis has it, no.

If a Kentucky has it, then neither is worth it.:)):mandosmiley:

barney 59

Dec-05-2009, 4:54pm

I guess that if you have any intention for resale then it probably is worth it. It seems as though the "public" has decided that Gil's are the "it" mandolin and justified or not it makes it really hard for anyone else,no matter how good they are, to occupy that spot. We do it with everything, artists and sports figures,cars-- there is only really room for one star at a time and then to keep it interesting we give them a rival --- Picasso/Matisse, Stradivarius/Guinarius(sp), Chamberland/Russell -- so is it Gilchrist/Dudenbostel or Loar/Gilchrist?

Randy Smith

Dec-06-2009, 1:39pm

Re: Gilchrists, see Kevin Briggs' post today in General Mandolin Discussions on getting to play one.

jealbe49

Dec-11-2009, 7:08pm

If price is not an issue for you. Play them all and let your ears and hands decide which one is worth it to you... I did and I play an Altman with no regrets....

chip

Dec-11-2009, 8:40pm

Yep!:popcorn:

Kevin Briggs

Dec-11-2009, 8:43pm

I have to agree with John A. Even with the reputation that Gilchrist enjoys, a wide-open budget levels the playing field, in that regard. If you can get whatever you want, it doesn't do much good to wonder what might be out there that you can't quite afford, because you simply can afford it. The decision is purely left to what you like.

Now, that said, it is hard to quantify how much better a Gilchrist is than another mandolin, particularly when you can spend upwards of $20,000 less on a new instrument and have it possibly be in that stratosphere. First, Gilchrist makes a kick-butt mandolin, there's no question. Second, he has a name, a waiting list, player endorsements, and a great overall career.

I will not take anything away from Gilchrist, because he made his bones and has every right to enjoy his success, but I don't mind saying that $25,000 is a lot of loot.

Eddie Sheehy

Dec-11-2009, 8:56pm

Personally I'd prefer a Ferrari, but a Posch would do in a pinch...

Is a Posch worth twice what a Martin is??? Gils are extremely high quality mandolins. I've played a handful and most were great, some were just good. Gils have a unique "feel" to them that is very vintage-like IMHO. His fit and finish is flawless. There are a lot of choices when you hit the $10k mark. Ellis makes a darn fine mandolin with great tone and excellent fit and finish. I have no personal experience with Altmans.

Chris Biorkman

Dec-11-2009, 9:50pm

Yep!:popcorn:

Well, I'd hope you think that, Chip, or else you wasted a ton of money.

In response to the original question, the answer is yes. However a used Dude sells for $30,000, so one would logically imply that they are 50% better than a Gilchrist.

Scott Crabtree

Dec-12-2009, 5:57am

The answer is simple buy a Nugget...

BradKlein

Dec-12-2009, 11:34am

One way to think about this perennial question is that all lasting things, and a fine mandolin should last a good long while, will be resold someday.

Fortunately, high end used instruments from well known builders and companies tend to hold their value pretty well. So if you figure in some depreciation from wear, and the opportunity cost of NOT having the money invested elsewhere... add about 1% for insurance, and you have an idea of what owning an instrument is likely too cost you.

Divide by the amount of pleasure that instrument brings, and you have the cost per pleasure unit. It's SCIENCE my friend!

mandroid

Dec-12-2009, 11:43am

Now, USA buyers have a path thru an importer-dealer here , so there is where customs brokerage , duty, and such fees get added to the food chain on Gil's , too ..
:whistling:

But to know you really have to play them each in person, do that and get back to us..

:popcorn:

chip

Dec-12-2009, 11:49am

Well Chris...when I decide to sell my Gilchrist I'll get all my money back plus the fact that I was able to enjoy the instrument for many years. One just sold at Gruhn's for $19,000, typically they hold this value so I'm happy with the purchase and I didn't "waste a ton of money" as you so eloquently posted. As the years go by and other mandolins come and go,Gils, Nugs, etc. will continue to climb in value as most quality handmade items do. :))

Rob Gerety

Dec-12-2009, 12:47pm

Nope. Make a donation to charity with the difference.

Chris Biorkman

Dec-12-2009, 1:17pm

GTG

Dec-12-2009, 1:28pm

No. For the price of a Gil, you can buy two houses in Detroit or Phoenix, right?! Unfortunately, I'm not really kidding.

But I guess I play an F-style mando, so I can't pretend that all my purchasing decisions are rational either.

Ok, I guess the correct answer is that at these prices, mandos are not instruments so much as fun investments. Will you get more enjoyment and a higher return from a Gil, or from a $10k instrument plus $10k of, say, mutual funds? I guess it depends on the rest of your portfolio, your investment timeline, and your level of risk acceptance.

(I seem to be on an economics kick today)

mandroid

Dec-12-2009, 1:37pm

Seen this thread Majorbanjo ?, Okay you have to get over the scroll envy , but ...

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52930

there ya go.. a Gil of your own.

hank

Dec-12-2009, 2:02pm

The word worth leaves this a bit open ended. What is something worth monetarily, emotionally, etc., etc... Monetarily the answer is yes. You could realistically sell the Gil. and purchase two of the Ellis or Altmans. It sounds like you are interested in tone and playability, in this respect the answer is probably no.
People buy mandolins for many reason besides a passion for playing them. Also thousands of dollars to some are equal to pennies to others. Is this purchase an investment, a statement, a whim, a passion, a travesty, a home breaker, a (you fill in the blank)? Besides you already knew the answer to this question before you asked it. I'm glad you can afford what you want though. It must be nice.

majorbanjo

Dec-12-2009, 8:56pm

OK...I see Gruhn has Ellis/Altman/Stan Miller/Gil / Mont....in stock ....I'm going to try and get up there soon.....for a good tasting.....probably be spring before I make it though.......

hank

Dec-12-2009, 9:24pm

Hope you find the real deal Majorbanjo. Sounds like this is an adventure into mandoville that will amuse you for a time. So much of the fun is in the search and the anticipation of a better mandolin. Maybe that's why there are so many of us that are never satisfied and riddled with MAS. Once you find the perfect mandolin no matter what it's cost all that is left is the need for a determination to really learn to play it well or the realization that easier happiness can be found somewhere else. The funny thing is if you left out the acquisition part and went directly to the learn how to play part almost any mandolin can sound wonderful. Isn't it funny the games we play?

JeffD

Dec-13-2009, 5:53pm

Is a Gilchrist really worth over twice what an Ellis or Altman costs?
....

Must be, otherwise they couldn't price it that way.

Rob Gerety

Dec-13-2009, 6:21pm

Must be, otherwise they couldn't price it that way.

Well, all they really need is a small number of people who believe it is worth it and who have the resouces. As long as they have that - they can charge what they want.

blindboy

Dec-15-2009, 1:49am

I've never played a Gil, though I do own an Ellis A5 and Stanley F5 IMO both great mandolins that sound and play great to my ears. For me its really hard to imagine something sounding twice(or... three times) as good as either. If you can get your brain around it, I would recommend the Ellis A5 for the money(exceptional tone/quality at really a great price)... of course that's a big IF :)

mandroid

Dec-15-2009, 1:57am

Should Steve's un sold inventory build up to over a couple years of work,
there may be some price adjustment ,
but with a waiting list, at his current pricing, don't hold your Breath..

Econ 101 :whistling:

:popcorn:

AlanN

Dec-15-2009, 8:27am

To those who insist on saying "This 20K instrument does not sound twice as good as my 10K instrument", I say play your 10K instrument.

Chris "Bucket" Thomas

Dec-15-2009, 8:30am

Is a Gil really worth over twice an Ellis or Altman?

1. Yes (when in the right hands).

2. Only if you want to pay for it (something is only worth what one will pay)

Rob Gerety

Dec-15-2009, 9:22am

And here I sit thinking about contributing $25 to buy a goat for a young man in Africa which could sustain him for years. Sorry, I couldn't resist. These numbers are hard for me to relate to.

sgarrity

Dec-15-2009, 9:28am

I encourage y'all to read Scott's latest blog post.....

Paul Kotapish

Dec-17-2009, 3:15am

I encourage y'all to read Scott's latest blog post.....

Yep, Scott pretty much nailed it. http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/blog.php?b=214

This discussion about whether a Gilchrist (or Dudenbostel or Loar or whatnot) is worth $_____ pops up every few months without fail, and pretty much always generates the same range of responses as this current thread has.

The relative value of musical instruments--or most any consumer item (car, watch, shoes, olive oil)--is never purely objective, linear, or even necessarily rational, and the equation to determine whether any given object is "worth" the current asking price must always take into account a number of intangibles including the desires and proclivities of the buyer.

You can't put a specific price tag on some of that stuff, and some of the qualities that might drive up the price on a mandolin--tone, volume, fit, finish, details--might not be equally apparent to every set of ears and eyes.

As a point of comparison, pretty much any $15 wristwatch these days will actually keep better time than a handmade tourbillon costing $250,000, but some folks just gotta have that impossibly fine--and largely invisible--design and craftsmanship on their arm.

The value associated with a specific maker is usually based on high performance perceived by a lot of satisfied customers. There are undoubtedly many contemporary makers building instruments that rival Nuggets, Gilchrists, Dudenbostels, and vintage (or new) Gibsons at a fraction of the cost.

If the demand for great instruments continues to outstrip the supply, those instruments will increase in value to the extent that their qualities are recognized.

Look at the violin world. Early 20th C. Italian violins were a bargain not that many decades back. The same fiddles that sold for $10K a few years back are now fetching well over $100K today.

And I'm with Scott. When money is an issue, drive a reliable old beater, wear your clothes to shreds, cancel your cable subscription, forget the fancy watch, and go for the mandolin of your dreams--and good olive oil.

Dagger Gordon

Dec-17-2009, 6:32am

Well I don't wear a watch. My old beater pick-up had to go in Sept (but I got an amazing trade-in for it as part of the UK car Scrappage Scheme), we don't subscribe to cable, I certainly wear my clothes to shreds (but the sheep and cows aren't that bothered), I make do with any old olive oil and I play Sobell and Collings mandolins which will probably see me out.
The other instruments knocking about are good enough for what I want them for. I mostly use a Freshman guitar which cost £75 about 5 years ago (generally for teaching purposes) and I only buy wine which is on some sort of cheap deal. BTW, you didn't mention booze, Paul!
But my main instruments are pretty good. I doubt if I'll be buying a Gil.

Tripp Johnson

Dec-17-2009, 7:25am

Ditto what Shaun said...read Scott's blog.

Perry

Dec-17-2009, 10:04am

Besides the obvious; fit finish and playability...the thing I notice about really fine instruments is the musical overtones they produce. 10 years ago I don't think my ears were experienced enough to hear those overtones....

What am I trying to say...who knows? :)

But I do know that a lot folks fall for that "immediate woody dark thumpy chop" sound in a mando and that's a one trick pony.....

A really fine instrument is three dimensional.

Perry

doc holiday

Dec-17-2009, 10:12am

Is a $250 Kentucky worth over twice the price of a Johnson? Is McCallan's 25yr worth many times the price of a blended whiskey? Merry Christmas to all our great builders, and may they prosper in the New Year!
:whistling:

Tom C

Dec-17-2009, 12:36pm

Gil's prices went up very quickly because he had like a 7 year wait list and was committed to those prices. People were getting delivery and turning them around for over $20K to people who have a lot of money and did not want to wait on a 7 year list. The point is people are willing to pay the money.

JeffD

Dec-17-2009, 12:48pm

go for the mandolin of your dreams--and good olive oil.

Until recently, I hadn't realized the importance of good olive oil. It does make a difference. Sorry for the topic diversion, but I had to highlight the wisdom of that.

JeffD

Dec-17-2009, 12:50pm

Is McCallan's 25yr worth many times the price of a blended whiskey? :

Another good question. And the answer is: occationally absolutely.

Keith Erickson

Dec-17-2009, 12:55pm

Is a Gilchrist really worth over twice what an Ellis or Altman costs?

I would think Dewey Farmer or Mike Marshall could afford a Gil and they're both playing Altmans.........I know Mike has a Loar...

Is it name recognition that drives the price up or something else?.....I play a very modest mandolin for two reasons....limited skill and my main instrument is something else...however I've been thinking about an Altman or Ellis...only because I admire quality instruments and I can afford it.....but....question if the cost of going for a gil is justified over an Altman or an Ellis....

Ditto to Scott's blog.....

I'm not going near the price issue. It's been hashed, rehashed, regurgitated and recycled 9 ways from Sunday.

I've never played a Gil but in my humble opinion, after hearing Mike Compton's F4 live and in the flesh......... that Gil is one of the sweetest, most unique sounding and beautiful mandolins that I have heard ~o)

Bradley

Dec-18-2009, 4:58am

I would say Heck No.

I say this for two reasons...2 years ago I was at SPGMA and had Ellis #101 in hand when visiting a room full of Gilchrists. Long Story short there was not one mandolin in there better than the Ellis in terms of looks,fit and sound. Did the Gilchrists have that majic name associated yes, buts that was about the only difference.

Secondly there is NO mandolin worth $25K.I have learned that after being forced to sell what I consider high end mandolins during this wonderful economy-an Ellis and a Master Model (both which didnt quite cost 25K) It absolutely killed me sending those out and downsizing to a Collings M2TV, and to be quite frank going to jams or shows and people saying " why dont you have one of them real mandolins with that little curl thing" really P'd me off......But to be honest I have just as much delight in playing that $4K Collings as I did the Ellis and the Master model. I have learned thru the last year that Its the music that makes me happy and not the mandolin, and in addition when I step in to a mike to play back up or breaks the people that are listening couldnt tell what I was playing nor did they care, and sorry we can talk tone and all that other stuff but at the end of the day is there enough difference....Um NO. Now one day I do hope that I can maybe get another Higher end mando from Mr. Ellis or David Harvey, but for right now That mandolin without the scrolly thing makes the music just as good. And to be honest some people in the Non Bluegrass circle have said " thats the loudest and best sounding mandolin you have ever owned"- But again I find just as much Joy because I have LEARNED thats its still about the music and not about who made it.

Kevin Briggs

Dec-18-2009, 6:44am

Ah yes, the A-style argument. I knew this one would show its wonderful roundness at some point!

If I was in the market, having scratched and clawed for the F style of my choice, I would most certainly go with an A style now. There's no way I would have at first, but after pursuing and securing my F, and after playing it and shaking the aura of the F style, dollars and sense would lead me to an A style.

Just think how much simpler our lives would be!

nkforster

Dec-18-2009, 8:02am

The price of an instrument is down to supply and demand, same as everything else...

http://www.nkforsterguitars.com

doc holiday

Dec-18-2009, 8:50am

I remember sometime around 2000 or so when Steve Gilchrist was delivering mandolins for $9000 and people were flipping them for as much as 2oK. It's good to see that he is getting his share of the financial benefit of being considered the premier builder of Loar style mandolins. I'd love to play one of his new Ajrs.

AlanN

Dec-18-2009, 9:02am

The period of 1993-2000 saw a dramatic, I mean dramatic price adjustment for many of the higher end instruments. I ordered a mandolin and between the order time to receipt (~ 3 years), the price of that particular instrument rose 400%.

Skip Kelley

Dec-18-2009, 9:50am

I have played a couple of Gil's and they are among the finest mandolins I have ever played. My advice is get whatever mandolin you feel you just can't live without and enjoy picking it!:grin:

nkforster

Dec-18-2009, 10:50am

I have to say, the one Gilchrist I played was one of the finest Mandolins I've ever come across so my feeling is the demand is justified.

http://www.nkforsterguitars.com

Walt

Dec-18-2009, 12:40pm

The price of an instrument is down to supply and demand, same as everything else...

http://www.nkforsterguitars.com

That is exactly right. If the supply of Gils went up and demand remained constant, the price would come down because the bidders would be spread out over more instruments and vice versa. If the demand for Gils went up and the supply remained constant, then the price would go up because there would be more bidders in the market and vice versa.

If Ellis or Altman only produced one mandolin per year, the price of that instrument would increase greatly maybe even surpassing that of a Gilchrist, because everyone wanting an Ellis or an Altman would be forced to bid on that one instrument.

If Ellis is charging $10,000 per mandolin and is getting more requests for mandolins than he can fill, he will likely raise the price. But if he raises the price too much, he will end up with mandolins stacking up in his shop, because at that price there are not enough bidders willing to buy all the mandolins he can produce.

I would assume that Ellis, Altman and Gilchrist probably supply a comparable number of new instruments per year--so demand is what separates Gils from the rest. Demand for Gils are higher for a bunch of reason already listed in this thread: sound, craftsmanship, playability, name recognition, resale value, and an infinite number of other factors that convinces another bidder to enter the market for that instrument.

Atlanta Mando Mike

Dec-18-2009, 3:45pm

Gil's have been associated with some the greatest players in the world (for good reason), Skaggs, McCoury, Compton, Dawg, Matt Flinner, Tom Rozum, Andy Leftwich, etc. That is one big thing that sets them apart from some other makers. Look at Dude's...Greatest mandolin player in the world, arguably :), plays one and bam, price is through the roof. Once you have the product, quality, etc... then the marketing is the deciding element. IMO, for any of these other makers that are at that level, until an extremely influential player makes his mark with that instrument then there will be a difference in price related to star power, if nothing else.

mritter

Dec-18-2009, 8:15pm

Ellis has been associated with some pretty good star power as well.

48437

Atlanta Mando Mike

Dec-21-2009, 3:36pm

Yeah but everyone doesn't associate Skaggs with Ellis even though we all know he played one for awhile. For the last x years the Gil has been on stage with the Loar, not the Ellis-At least at the shows i've seen and in hearing the players comments.

Pete Braccio

Dec-22-2009, 4:01pm

Forgive me if this has already been said, but this is the only thing that pops into my mind when I see one of these threads:

It is if you think it is.
It's not if you don't think it is.

Happy Happy,
Pete

SHORTY

Dec-22-2009, 4:43pm

I've had the opportunity to play a Lloyd Loar, Gilcrest, Sims, Weber, Collins, Skip Kelly, but I think my own build is better than all those. I think the skip Kelly is tight in the upper mix also. Of course I'm truly predjudice to my own work. I can agree that a person with legend can ask for more. I've had some people tell me a L.Loar isn't worth the price but yet the quality, history and sound make it the top purchase these days.
Quality is quality. Some day I hope to win the lottery and I'll get a L.Loar.' Just my 2 cents.