Will mediums make a significant tonal difference?

[Rob Gerety]

I have a new to me 1916 A4. It is very solid, the neck is straight and the frets are perfect. In general the set up now is good and it plays quite well. I have been using lights but I have a feeling the instrument was set up with mediums because I am getting fret rattle - but there might be other causes. I will have a good experienced luthier familiar with these instruments do a thorough set up (maybe a new nut - E and A strings are buried in the nut) in a few weeks. I want to tell him whether I will be using lights or mediums and to be honest I'm not really sure which I want to use. I don't have enough experience yet with mandolins and certainly not this particular mandolin to know. I have been playing mando for about a year and I've been using lights mostly to help with playability as I grow accustomed to the instrument. At this point I would move to mediums if I felt it would have a positive impact on the sound of the mandolin. I use mediums on my guitars for that reason and I am comfortable now making the change on mandolin as well - if it's the right thing for the instrument.

Aside from the playability impact - is there likely to be a significant tonal and/or volume impact on this instrument if I use mediums instead of lights?

[Jill McAuley]

I think you'll definitely notice a difference in both tone and volume if you bump up to mediums. Not sure what gauge pick you're using, but if it's a lighter one, you'll possibly want to move up to a heavier gauge pick as well once you get those new strings on. When I was playing a Flatiron pancake, strung with light gauge strings I was fairly happy using a .72mm pick (I play irish trad stuff), but when I got a Weber Aspen, strung with J74's the .72mm picks just weren't doing it for me, so I gravitated up to .98mm picks and was much happier. The combo of the heavier gauge strings and heavier gauge picks was just the ticket for tone and volume.

Cheers,
Jill

[JeffD]

On my A2, I use J74s and a Red Bear heavy pick - and I just lay back and listen to the rich creamy tone.

[thejamdolinplayer]

Try out the J-74's and take a look at Michael Wegen picks. Especially the
TF140 and M150...

[Mandoist]

If you hear a "tonal difference" ...then the answer is YES!

Whatever makes your own ears happy is good; nothing else really matters.

[Rob Gerety]

I use a thick pick - Blue Chip. That won't have to change. I think I'll throw some mediums on this weekend and give them a whirl.

[lenf12]

I agree that you will most likely hear a significant improvement in tone and volume and you will likely get rid of the fret rattling issue once you move up to medium guage strings. I use D'Addario Flat Top FT-74's (.011" to .039" with a wound A) on my 1916 F-4. The Gibson necks of that vintage can definitely take the stress of modern medium guage strings.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[Rob Gerety]

I stuck some mediums on this afternoon. Can't judge tone and volume for a few days. But it does seem that the fret rattle is gone. Thanks for the input.

[pops1]

I like the GHS silk and bronze strings for my old Gibson. 11-40 They give me the sound with less tension. Have tried a lot of strings, but have been using these for years now.

[Mark Marino]

I agree with the folks that say medium gage will make a difference in tone- volume as well. I play a 1916 as well and it's like playing a different instrument with heavier strings. One thing I do find however is that (to me) it feels like my instrument plays itself with lighter gage strings- it takes more effort to play the heavier string, which seems to affect the style and way I play- I prefer the way the instrument feels and reacts to the lighter strings.

[journeybear]

Good mediums should predict a significant tonal difference. :cool:





:whistling:

[Rob Gerety]

Well, I've been playing these mediums hard yesterday and today and they have settled in nicely. There is no doubt about it, this A4 responds much better to mediums. The biggest difference is in the trebles which are louder and fatter than the lights. The bass is excellent with both strings. The fret rattles are completely gone. Overall the instrument is louder and much better balanced with mediums. I don't see myself going back to lights. Its pretty clear now that this instrument was set up for mediums.

Also, I find the medium strings very easy to play - I don't really notice any problem at all with the heavier strings and there was no adjustment at all for me. In fact, I like the heavier treble strings for slides. Hammer ons and pull offs take a tiny bit of extra effort.

[Rob Gerety]

I want to update this a bit. I brought this new to me 1916 A4 to a very experienced luthier with loads of experience with Gibsons. He is going to do a set up and some other work. The first thing he said to me was that the top on my A4 is remarkably unscathed. He said that many many A4s he sees have some top sinkage. Mine has none. He also said that he strongly recommends that I use lights, not mediums on any Gibson A. He feels that the mediums will take a toll on the mandolin over time and that if the instrument is in good repair and set up properly it will play very very well with lights. So, your mileage may vary, but I'm going to follow this fellows advice.

[mandroid]

Hmm , have used A250 on the pre TR A, and LS250 silk-n-steel on the TR A4,

so it's something to think of .. like the feel of each , the lighter ones a bit better .

[dan@kins]

I'd watch that top closely with mediums. Personally, I'd be leery of putting mediums on an old Gibby A... The top will sink on you if you're not careful.

[250sc]

I consider J75s as medium and J74s as light. Your mandolin should be able to handle the J74s

[pops1]

Been using silk and bronze from GHS for years with no noticeable effect on my '22 I feel if it is played and vibrating it remains strong and when it sits with the string pressure it gets strained. Keep it vibrating by playing lots!!

[mandroid]

Guess the Tensions them selves in pounds/Kg need to be calculated.. .010, vs.011, and .015/.016

and whether the underlayer of 'silk' lowers the tension needed to make LS26 act like MP24, at the D pitch,
or the LS/LSB 40 come up to G pitch with less tension than like a MP 40
{Using GHS product terminology, for this MP , phosphor bronze LS silk-n-steel LSB, S&Bz }

[Rob Gerety]

I consider J75s as medium and J74s as light. Your mandolin should be able to handle the J74s
Not according to some. My guy feels J74s are likely to cause damage over time. I know Paul H. has opined that J74s are fine.

[Big Joe]

When your mandolin was built the string guages were considerably heavier than we now use. Your mandolin should do fine with any of the modern variety of strings. J74 or J75 should be very fine on your instrument. Actually, using too light a string will not drive the top hard enough to get the tone and volume it was intended to give. I've worked on lots of old Gibson A's and never found one yet that suffered from damage or top sinkage due to using J74 or comparable strings. You can chose what you like, but damage is from many other issues rather than the strings chosen. In addition, if your mandolin has survived 90 years with out any top shrinkage, then it is not likely to at this point in its life because of string choice.

[Rob Gerety]

Sure are a lot of different opinions on this. Tell me, when I get my mando back all set up for lights - can I use mediums on it like that or am I likely to need to make adjustments - nut slots maybe? Bridge height? I'd hate to have to bring it back.

[250sc]

If you change guage of strings you'll most likely want to look at your setup again and make the necessary adjustments. Setup isn't a static thing even when you don't change string guage/type. I've noticed that in the winter (central heat and less humidity) I have to tweek my setup. Then when summer comes it can need to be adjusted back. My mandolin is effected much more by humidity and temperature change than any other instrument I've played.

I'd feel comfortable with the advise given by Big Joe and Paul H. They certainly have enough experience with mandolins of all makes and ages.

[Big Joe]

If you change string guage...or sometimes even brand...you may have to adjust the nut slots to fit the new strings and may have to adjust where your bridge sits slightly to get intonation just right.

[Fretbear]

When your mandolin was built the string guages were considerably heavier than we now use.

Is there any documentation for this statement?

[Rob Gerety]

Tell me, would the fact that the transverse brace was completely unglued on the treble side and/or that treble strings were deeply buried in the nut explain a lack of treble response with lights which improved so dramatically when I had mediums on?

Is it possible that the repair of these things (and a good set up) will significantly improve the treble response with lights and the overall balance of the instrument with lights?

I'm trying to decide whether to call this luthier to ask him to set it up for mediums right now. I don't want to have to go back a second time for a new set up with mediums. But I am holding out hope that he really knows how to coax the max out of these old As (which is his reputation) and that he knows that the lights will in fact drive the top well once everything is all put in the right condition etc. He sure seemed confident about that - and he is a player too.

[hank]

I would make the call. Lite strings are great for younger and beginners fingers but will never give you the tone your 1916 is capable of. Rich Delgrosso uses J75's to make his A4's sing. I have no experience like Joe and Paul or Rich but am comfortable with their choices. I understand and respect your reluctance but you may be disappointed with your choice when and if you A/B your 1916 with someone else's old A that is driven with heavier strings. I just purchased an 1915 and plan on using whatever makes it sound the best. If she blows up, I'll get her fixed but seeing as our experienced luthiers haven't had these kind of repairs coming in their shop that possibility remains small.

[Rob Gerety]

Check that brace below the hole closely.

[hank]

I bought from Elderly for that reason. They have a great team of experienced people doing the inspecting for me. I wasn't looking for a bargain but a fair market price for an instrument that had been inspected and evaluated by experts that do this sort of work on a daily basis. There is some inherent risk of mandolin wood that is ninety five years old from it's assembly date and I was reluctant to buy an old mandolin for this reason but changed my mind after playing and inspecting a few good ones. Admiration for great musicians like Rich Delgrosso and the sound of his A4's was a large part of my motivation on this purchase. P.S I don't like lite beer either. :))

[Rob Gerety]

I had the same reluctance about buying a vintage mandolin but after playing a few it became obvious that these old mandos are built like tanks and it was one of those things where I basically new this is what I wanted to do once I played a few and compared them to the middle range new oval holes. I've owned some vintage guitars in my day but grew weary of that - mine all seemed to be rather temperamental and troublesome and the playability wasn't what my old hands wanted. So now I own modern guitars. But these vintage mandos don't seem to have as many problems from what I have seen. Love to see a few pics of yours.

[hank]

Thanks Rob, I saw your photo's and she's a beauty. I had my heart set on a blacktop so I adopted this pretty black lady with fancy German jewelry. Her name is Boo and boy can she sing. On another thread I had decided to put the original case up but after closer inspection I've decided to use it. The case with the mandolin in it is amazingly weightless. My beautiful wife Donna suggested I use the original case and reminded me that once an instrument joins our family it gets the very best of care. She pointed out that there isn't a mark on any of my other cases so I agreed case replacement was overkill. Merry Christmas and congratulations on your beautiful A4.

[Rob Gerety]

Gorgeous. They sure are pretty aren't they? It really is pretty amazing that there are so many still around in such great condition.

My original case has been set aside. They are indeed light as a feather but unlike your cases, mine tend to get beat up for some reason so I picked up a used tkl for $50 and it serves the purpose.

I'm missing mine. Amazing fast I got emotionally attached to it. My Eastman just isn't cutting it for me anymore.

[Zigeuner]

I want to update this a bit. I brought this new to me 1916 A4 to a very experienced luthier with loads of experience with Gibsons. He is going to do a set up and some other work. The first thing he said to me was that the top on my A4 is remarkably unscathed. He said that many many A4s he sees have some top sinkage. Mine has none. He also said that he strongly recommends that I use lights, not mediums on any Gibson A. He feels that the mediums will take a toll on the mandolin over time and that if the instrument is in good repair and set up properly it will play very very well with lights. So, your mileage may vary, but I'm going to follow this fellows advice.

I have always used light gauge strings on my mandolins. I think it will extend the life of the instruments. I'm sure that they would be louder with medium strings and also would be more difficult to play.

JMO.

[Rob Gerety]

Actually, my experience is that well set up mediums are very easy to play - not an issue at all. Also, while there is a volume difference for sure, the thing that I like is the improvement in the balance treble to bass on my A4. Mediums really helped the treble response on my mandolin. The only concern I have is whether the extra pressure on the top is harmful over time.

[Zigeuner]

Actually, my experience is that well set up mediums are very easy to play - not an issue at all. Also, while there is a volume difference for sure, the thing that I like is the improvement in the balance treble to bass on my A4. Mediums really helped the treble response on my mandolin. The only concern I have is whether the extra pressure on the top is harmful over time.

Yes, the extra pressure may take it's toll. It's hard to say when or if ever. It's true that the treble response is greater with medium strings as well.

[Rob Gerety]

I wonder if mediums on the treble and lights on the bass might balance well on these Gibson As.

[Nick Triesch]

There is no way on earth I would put medium strings on that old Gibson. The top was just not made for that heavy of string. I believe that Charlie Darrington told me years ago that my 1923 Gibson A type would be fine with J74 strings. Used them ever since and I have had my mando for 20 years strung up. Top is fine and mando sounds perfect. Nick

[Rob Gerety]

J74s are mediums, right? I think most folks think of the J74s as mediums and that is certainly what I was referring to.

The luthier ended up setting my A4 up for a set of GHS strings - medium/light - 12,16,24,38. If I am reading the charts right this set give about 25% less pressure than J74s with no loss in performance that I can detect. Truth is, having used both, I prefer this GHS set on this particular instrument. These string gauges balance out real well giving it the fat trebles it needs and giving almost nothing away on the bass side.

[mandroid]

.012 is a rather thick E string for a mandolin . , .0115"+. .011 is a lot stiffer than a .010. ,

Takes more tension to reach that E pitch the thicker the string. ..

but if you have to project back a few rows into the hall , to get the tip-jar fed, maybe that's all for the best.

[Rob Gerety]

Ooops! I mis-spoke. It's an 11, not a 12. So the set is GHS A 260 Medium/LIght - 11 16 24 38. Sorry folks!

[KirkwoodCowboy]

I've used J74's on my 1917 F-4 for quite a while & loved the sound. After being advised to go lighter i tried light strings but it sounds so weak & unispiring i never played it. I went back to J-74's & that's the way it sounds good to me. I tried Thomastiks & they play wonderful & sound OK but when i take them off i'm gonna go back to J74's.

[Martin Jonas]

Old Gibsons vary quite a bit in their response to stringing, I think. On my 1921 Ajr I use J73 strings, which are phosphor bronze with the same gauge as J62 except for a slightly heavier G. Last year I changed to J74, but found the mandolin much less responsive, so I changed back after a few months (having given it some time to see if it's just a matter of settling down or me getting used to the higher tension). The only thing I preferred on the J74 was the G, which is a bit weak with the lighter set, so I kept the heavier G when changing back to J73.

Martin

[Rob Gerety]

All I can speak to is my particular mandolin - 1916 A4. I find that mine works best with the 11 and 16 on the treble side (quite an improvement over lights) but that those strings balance well with 24 and 38 on the bass - no need for mediums on the bass side. Overall this seems to give my particular mandolin the best performance AND it cuts the top pressure a bit compared to J74 which I am gad for. GHS A260 Medium/Light seems to do the trick for me right now. I do agree though that unless all these old Gibsons are exactly the same (and I doubt they are) you just have to experiment a bit until you find the charm for your particular instrument and your particular playing environment.