Warranty Questions!!!!

[Links]

This is not a theoretical question, but the names have been changed to protect the guilty!

If in the past fifteen years you had purchased approximately 30K worth of mandolins from Acme Instrument Company, or from John Doe Mandolin Builder, and the ten dollar portion of the tailpiece snapped, would you tell them that their warranty had expired, or would you send them another ten dollar tailpiece?

I'm curious!

[MikeEdgerton]

Depends on the terms of the warranty.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Replace it with a $150 tailpiece yourself.

[Rob Gerety]

Depends on the terms of the warranty.
Exactly. Might need to know whether the original failed because of a defect or because of ordinary wear and tear - just guessing because I dont' know the terms of the warranty.

[jim simpson]

I'm with Eddie - replace it with a $150.00 tailpiece (my favorite: a James).

[Jim Broyles]

This is not a theoretical question, but the names have been changed to protect the guilty!

If in the past fifteen years you had purchased approximately 30K worth of mandolins from Acme Instrument Company, or from John Doe Mandolin Builder, and the ten dollar portion of the tailpiece snapped, would you tell them that their warranty had expired, or would you send them another ten dollar tailpiece?

I'm curious!

You have made it unclear who is who here. Am I the mandolin seller or buyer? At first you say I had purchased 30K worth of mandolins, then you ask if I would send another tailpiece. Well, no, not if I bought it in the first place. I might, if I had been the seller, but it all depends. It sounds as if you are the buyer and you want us to tell you that your seller should give you a free tailpiece. Maybe, but not necessarily. Why don't you ask for one? Can this seller expect a new sale in the near future? Why don't you send it back and ask for an upgrade? You might get a nice discount on a supper TP.

[Links]

Jim, you are right, it was not real clear. Say you are the buyer of 30K worth of mandolins and the tailpiece on one of them snapped. You then contacted the maker/manufacturer and asked for the tailpiece to be replaced (thinking it was still under warranty). You were then told by the manufacturer that the warranty had expired.

The question is, what would you have done if you were the manufacturer? Would you have sent this guy a $10 tailpiece, or would you have said "sorry Mac, the warranty has expired"! Sorry for the confusion.

[OldSausage]

If the warranty had in fact expired, I would probably say so, unless I was in an incredibly good mood (rare). Mind you, I'm not a manufacturer, just a curmudgeon.

[Mike Bunting]

I might be embarrassed to try and get a $10 freebie after the warranty expired. You spent $30,000 and you're getting excited over $10?

[Bill James]

I would send a replacement out in a heartbeat regardless of how the warrenty was worded. If I were the customer, I may not expect it but as the manufacturer or maker I wouldn't even look for a reason not to replace it.

Oh and...I'd pay the shipping too.

Now...if it needed a new set of Waverlies....

[OlderThanWillie]

If I didn't care whether you ever bought from me again I would tell you the warranty had expired. If I looked forward to more business from you I would send out a $10 tailpiece the same day. Any dealer that would treat you that way after $30k of business isn't as smart as his pet rock.

[Links]

Bill & OlderThanWillie - Bingo! I wouldn't even have checked if the warranty had expired. I can't even fathom making an issue over such an inexpensive part. As the consumer, I would never take it for granted that the manufacturer "should" replace it, but if I were in their shoes, there would be no question that it would be replaced for free. It will certainly have an influence on my next purchase.

For the record, I thanked the person that replied to my inquiry and will buy a new part. I'll probably buy the exact tailpiece so as to be able put the mandolin back to original and buy a James tailpiece to use until I sell or trade it.

[Big Joe]

The person taking the call may not have the discretion to give product away for the company. He/she may be only doing customer service work and cannot have the option of giving a free tailpiece. Remember, they get hundreds of calls every day with people wanting something for nothing. Most manufacturers consider hardware a wear item and they do not expect it to last a lifetime. Some manufacturers only warrant hardware for a year, some not at all. It is usually explained clearly in the warranty literature. They have no obligation to do so and usually will not.

When we were at OAI we did all we could to make our consumers happy. I still do to this day in my business. That was a situation where I had the power to make those decisions. Many customer service people do not have that power and must rely on the rules of the company. Certainly nothing personal against you and no one trying to make you feel bad.

If this is a small builder it could well be that he/she did not have the cash flow to afford a tailpiece and therefore did not. I do know that the tailpieces we used at Gibson were quite a bit more expensive than ten dollars though. But it really matters not the value as the situation the company rep was in when you called. Remember also that they have to be very careful about making exceptions to their warranties or they could be required to honor every request made for items that are not in warranty. We were always made very aware not to set a precedence for the company that could violate the warranty terms and cause the company to become liable for items they purposefully excluded from the warranty.

As will most issues that seem simple on the surface, it is far more compicated than we would like it to be. It would be wonderful if we could just take care of each other, but at times it becomes nearly impossible to do what would seem the easy or right thing to do. Just my opinion.

[Ivan Kelsall]

These days,it's not uncommon for a 'top maker's' instrument to have a ''lifetime warranty for the original owner''. My Stelling Banjo carries one,as does my Weber Fern. A few years back,the screw thread on one of the 2 co-ordinator rods in my Banjo,stripped out. Stelling supplied me with a new one at no charge.
In this sort of thing,it's important to understand the cause of a 'defect'. Is the item itself at fault,or has the owner been messing around with it ?. If the former - then a free replacement is in order (to the original owner). If the latter - then the owner pays up.
As a rider to this,i understand Big Joe's point re.small builders & cash flow concerns. It's always seemed that the actual manufacturers of OE parts,should provide their own warranty against poorly made components & be liable for a replacement themselves. But,i suspect that the law in the US is the same (maybe ?) as the law in the UK, & that your 'contract of sale' is with the seller of the instrument,not the maker of the faulty part .To me that's a clear get-out on the part of the component makers. They get their cash for good or bad parts, & the dealer has to take all the flak from any angry buyers - Law change anyone ?,
Ivan:mad:

[Big Joe]

Yes. Most parts makers do not put a warranty to the end user on the parts. The manufacturer gets them at a discount and stands behind any warranty he/she puts on them. Most manufacturers put a very strict limit on the length of time any hardware parts are warranted. Electonics and most hardware is only a year or two coverage and after that is up to the end buyer. I know of none that will cover a used instrument. Most parts are subject to stresses that are beyond the control of the builder and they don't like having to stand behind something they can't control. It would be like a car maker warranting a set of brakes or air filter for the ten years or whatever current car warranties are. They put limits on what is covered and when.

One other note is that finish is not covered period. If your finish gets a problem it is not a warranty issue period and rarely will they do anything about that for any reason. The best protection for anyone is to clearly understand what is covered and what is not and for how long before purchase is made. Manufacturers warranties state it is flaws in material or workmanship only and many of the items we would like to see covered (like tailpieces) are considered a wear item and will need replacing at some point.

On another note, one of the things I always hated was trying to get replacement parts from the manufacturers. They often only order enough parts for actual builds, but do not stock parts for replacement for consumers. Often you cannot get replacement parts from them as a repair shop or consumer. Even at the big G we could not get parts for warranty or consumer repairs for many instruments from within the company. We had to find outside sources for parts for the repairs we did at Gibson. It always seemed pretty odd to me to have to outsource our dollars to who ever could provide the parts we needed for repair or restoration rather than purchase from ourselves (Gibson) for the parts we needed. At least it made me good at searching and finding parts suppliers for repairs and restorations. That helps me greatly today. Still, seems odd one cannot get the parts from the manufacturer. Just a pet peeve of mine. Oh well, life goes on :) .

[Rolfe]

I'm with Bill James. Then, I never had a failure on a James tailpiece. But I do make my own Rigel-style tailpieces, and occasionally one of the little "fingers" where the strings hook will fail, and I will replace it and pay shipping of the part. I even replaced one that all eight "fingers" failed due (a possibility suggested by the owner) to visiting children cranking up the strings until all eight broke! I also will refinish problem finish with the only cost to the original owner being shipment to me; subsequent owners pay shipping both ways. My philosophy (in place of a written warranty) is that if the problem is not the customer's fault, even in some cases where the problem is not my fault either (like with a problem finish), I owe to the customer to make it right. Goodwill is priceless.

[Links]

Joe - I do know one thing. If you were at this place of business I would have gotten a tailpiece. Incidentally, I emailed rather than called, but I don't think that made any difference in the response. They did have time to look up my serial number and know that I had done a lot of business with them in the past. However, you are correct in everything that you said, and that is why I dfid not go any further or go over the respondent's head and ask for a supervisor. I really had no ground as the warranty had been expired (as I found out) for some time. I had originally thought that the instrument may have had a lifetime warranty. It is funny, but I own (and have owned) about a dozen mandolins and this particular mandolin has had its tailpiece snap twice - the only one that has ever broken on me!

The first time it broke, I called the manufacturer and they bent over backwards to supply me with a new one, and in retrospect, the warranty was probably expired at the time. I don't even recall that they asked about the warranty, as I know that there was no paperwork involved - at least on my end. As per the cost, it may be a little over $10, but it sure couldn't be much, as there is really not much too it - very (and I mean very) thin plated brass and obviously not very strong!

This thread wasn't supposed to be so much as what I should do or if I had any "ground" to stand on, but just what most makers or manfacturers would or should do. Again Joe, I know what you would have done and appreciate your perspective from a larger outfits take on it.

Ivan , I agree with everything you said. Both Stelling and Weber are outstanding manufacturers and would have thought you would have had a good experience with a warranty problem. I had purposely left off the name of the manufacturer involved with my situation because it would not be fair to judge them based on one employee (who was correct in his handling of my case - maybe not the smartest way to handle it, but at least correct).

[Links]

Rolfe - that's why you are still in business and players love your mandolins. I don't know how many empoyees you have, but I bet your policy filters down them. That is probably one of the huge advantages smaller manufacturers or builders have over large companies. Everyone takes on the owners attitude toward their customers.

[sgarrity]

Customer service is lacking in most every industry in this country. I can hardly stand to go to any of the big box stores anymore. the people are just clueless and borderline rude. I have had great experiences with independent luthiers though. Several have gone above and beyond to help me fix problems that they really weren't responsible for. Mandolin luthiers on the whole are a fine bunch of people!!

[Bill James]

Joe makes some good points, especially this one:
"Many customer service people do not have that power and must rely on the rules of the company."

That being said, no matter how large the company, there should always be someone in place with a little common sense who has the ability to override company policy. I just left Fedex and went to UPS over a customer service dispute. Over the last three years I gave them over $43,000.00, this was a dispute over a $60.00 fee.

It's like the comedian says, "you can't fix stupid!" :disbelief:

[Hans]

While an individual builder is not responsible for a hardware failure, he/she should make a considerable effort to help to resolve the problem.

[Links]

Last three posts - Amen, Amen, Amen!!!!!!

[Links]

I my business, my greatest fear has always been not giving my clients enough for their money. Although I have considerable expenses in printing costs, misc. supplies, fedex shipping, etc., I have always included them in my fee and just hate nickel & diming them. If they need extra sets of prints or additional favors, I do them.

I will say that there are clients who don't realize you do these things or take them for granted. I always make a point (although probably self-serving) to include some of the larger "freebies" in my invoice and write "no charge".

[brianf]

How times have changed. I once bought a Kay guitar in an Anchorage, Alaska pawnshop. After playing for two years, I shipped it to Vermont by air ($1.50 special handling), and stored it in a closet for four years, I tried to play it, and found that the neck had warped too much.

I wrote the Kay people to ask what I could do about it. They said to send it to them for appraisal. Two weeks later, I got a telegram, saying that it could not be repaired, but that they were sending me a new one, free of charge. I played that one for many years.

[RichM]

I find that, in general, smaller builders are better about than large companies. I think it's mostly because small builders are usually companies of one or two, so you're always dealing with the owner; with larger companies, there are often layers of authority to work through.

Great story: I used to own a wonderful guitar by luthier Michael Dunn. Without going into all the details, Michael went to extraodinary lengths to repair a problem I had with one of his guitars, even though I admitted upfront I was not the original owner, and the warranty wasn't in effect. After he'd made the repairs for me, he steadfastly refused my offers to pay him the fair value of his work.

Bad Story: I was the original purchaser of a guitar from a very large manufacturer. During the course of owning the guitar, it required a very clear warranty repair. However, the dealer I had purchased it from had gone out of business. Even though I had all the necessary evidence that I was the original owner and the dealer was no longer in business, all attempts to work directly with the manufacturer failed; they insisted they did not deal directly with the public, and that I had to resolve the matter with the dealer (despite knowing that the dealer was no longer in business). I did finally manage to get them to handle the problem (and they replaced the guitar, so I guess I shouldn't complain), but the process defied logic.

[Big Joe]

I agree with great customer service and you are right, if you had gotten hold of me when I was there you would have gotten a tailpiece. That is part of the issue. You have to get to someone who can...or will do what I think is right. Charlie and I had a philosophy that we would bend over backwards for our customers and I still believe that. However, if we did not know of a problem we could not resolve it. Sometimes we would get the first inkling of a problem from a website rather than customer service. Then we could deal with it.

The customer service guys don't mean anything by thier actions. They are underpaid guys who may know little or nothing about the product except what is written in the material in front of them. When you e-mail they have done their job when they respond with the company line of banter. If one wishes to get something handled, it is important to get hold of the right person. Now that person would likely be Danny Roberts or Davey Harvey. They would help if they know of the issue.

I am sorry you have gone through this, but I am no longer there to help. I do think Danny will take very good care of you though. I think you can reach him at <personal email address edited by moderator> and he should be able to take care of you....if he can get the part.

Again, I think like Rolfe and Bill. We want to do everything we can reasonably....and sometimes somewhat unreasonably to take care of our customers no matter whose fault the problem is. I think this has been a good thread to address some of these issues. Larger operations don't always mean to be hard hearted, it is just hard to get to someone who can help. In smaller companies it always ends up being the philosophy and character of the person running the operation. Yes, they can hold to whatever written legal documents they have to protect themselves from unscrupulous people, but they should have enough sense to know when to just do the right thng. The philosophy of our shop has always been "Just do the right thing, because it is the right thing to do"!

[Links]

Joe, you made a great point regarding larger manufacturers having trouble getting replacement parts. That is what happened the first time the tailpiece broke. The "large maunfacturer" did not have them in stock, nor were they able to readily get them. This was an expensive mandolin, and although the tialpiece was "standard", there was something additional about this tailpiece that was not standard. It took them almost a year to replace the part!

PS: Joe - you are assuming that I am talking about the big "G". You might infer that by the process of elimination or you may just be using them as an example since you are so familiar with them. Thanks you for your advice and if it were a Gibson and it were a "big issue", I would certainly follow your advice - which is always right on the money!

[MikeEdgerton]

We have now exceeded the posting guidelines.

[Tim2723]

I too just had a great experience. A couple of you might remember that I posted about the top collapsing on my bowed psaltery. I sent it back to the builder and he made a brand new instrument for me, free of any charges of course. He even incorporated a couple of changes from the original that I wanted and did that for free too.

It's really great to be able to praise a manufacturer who can and does go the extra mile for customer satisfaction, but it's also unfair to criticize if they have to stick to the deal. When we buy things under warranty, we're supposed to understand and abide by the agreement. Sometimes the deal has to be the deal.

[Links]

Mike - just curious - what posting guideline have we exceeded?

[Ted Eschliman]

The original post could only have had two motives. One, to discuss the nature of warranty, which is ultimately a private (and contractual) deal between seller and buyer. Two, to create or air a larger subtext of controversy over the definition of customer "entitlement;" what do I get for free when I am the definition of a "good" customer?

We gave this discussion a long leash hoping it wouldn't digress from the hypothetical and into the personal. It has crossed the line. Guidelines prohibit the Café Discussion board to be a personal manipulative tool in leveraging a win in a personal personal dispute.