Cross tuning

[Mike Bunting]

I've been messing around with GDGD tuning but my fiddling friend prefers to do A tunes in A, go figger. Can I dare to do it in the right key and tune up to AEAE, is there any chance of harm to my mando by increasing the tension.

[Barbara Shultz]

This very subject just came up on the song a week social group... a member posted a tune in AEAE tuning, and I decided to try it... so far, so good!

[mandolirius]

I've been messing around with GDGD tuning but my fiddling friend prefers to do A tunes in A, go figger. Can I dare to do it in the right key and tune up to AEAE, is there any chance of harm to my mando by increasing the tension.

Whassamatta? Too big a sissy to use a capo? :grin:

[Mike Bunting]

Whassamatta? Too big a sissy to use a capo? :grin:

:))
The capo question came up on the Compton group, and it was suggested that we all buy capoes and post pictures to the Cafe. I'm on my way to the capo store tomorrow. Who makes them for mandos anyhow?

[chasgrav]

Banjo capos work fine on mandolin.

[evanreilly]

Bill Monroe kept a second mandolin, usually the other Loar, on the bus in open tunings for his cross-tuned numbers. 'Get Up John' was the cross-tuned number for years; then 'My Last Days' was the successor. There never seemed to be an issue with the mandolin staying in the open tunings.

[Randy Smith]

[QUOTE=Mike Bunting;735692]I've been messing around with GDGD tuning but my fiddling friend prefers to do A tunes in A, go figger.


Imagine your fiddler wanting to do an A tune in A. Jeesh! Just like a fiddler.

Ideas:

Play the tune in regular tuning. If you're playing with an entire band, a retuned mandolin isn't going to sound as dramatic as it would if you were playing by yourself or only with a guitar. (Listen to the solo performance of "June Apple" on the Tune of the Week social group.) Retuning might not be worth it to play one tune with several other instruments.

Or, while playing with your band, if you really want that sound and for one tune only, go ahead and quickly retune. The increased tension probably won't hurt your mandolin.

Buy a cheap mando and leave it tuned AEAE? Since you're playing with several other instruments, your audience probably won't find your tone unbearable for one tune.

Buy a capo. Everyone on the Cafe, except a few dinosaurs, says using a capo on a mandolin is ok.

Pay off your fiddler and get him or her to change keys. You can say, "It's only for one tune!" Just be sure to pay the fiddler in unmarked bills.

Good luck!

Randy S.

[Mike Bunting]

All I want to know is if the increased tension presents any potential harm to my mandolin(s). I was hoping that someone on the list had some experience with this and could pass on some info. Thanks to those who did.

[JGWoods]

I haven't harmed a mandolin going to AEAE but I suspect it might do damage, also the increased tension on the top might take it out of its best range of performance for tone and power.

I ordered a set of Ultra light strings and put them on the low courses before going up to AEAE. Off with .026 and .040, on with .020 and .032. I checked tensions with a string calculator and I am actually a little lower in total tension than I would be with a normal set of strings tuned GDAE.

Problems- I still have the old nut in place and it doesn't hold tune real well. I get through a song or two and then retune.

Other than that it's a winner and i am confident of no damage.

[EdHanrahan]

Guitar players have the similar issue of lowering the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 6th strings for an open D tuning, or raising the 3rd, 4th, and 5th strings for an open E tuning. They're the same relative tuning, w/ all the same chord notes but a whole step (2 frets) apart.

I've tried both for an hour or two with no problem. But I assume that increased tension could cause a long term problem, so I wouldn't leave it in a raised tuning for an extended period, especially with heavier strings, like for BG.

As to Mike's question: I don't see any short-term problem with the raised tuning.

JGW - I'm surprised that relatively wide nut slots (vs. relatively narrow strings) would contribute to tuning instability, since the nut really shouldn't be "grasping" the strings regardless. I usually go for .002 or .003 over the string width, but even .005 or so works tolerably. The main risk, as I see it, is that the less the bottom of the slot tracks the string diameter, the faster the slot will wear down, even if over decades. Or think of a 0-fret setup: There's no inherent tuning instability even though the nut's entire effort is strictly on the high-tension side of the string.

And it has come up here before that "mandolin capos" ARE banjo capos!

[Mandoviol]

I don't see why tuning it AEAE would do any harm; you're just tuning up the lower strings one note. Hasn't hurt fiddles any and they've been played that way for years.

You probably don't want to leave it tuned in AEAE so you can keep the strings playable (I would think that keeping them tuned up like that might decrease string life, but I have no real proof behind this assumption).

I bought a Paige capo the other day. So far I'm enjoying tooling around with it.

[JeffD]

I tend to cross tune down and capo up. I can't say that it would hurt anything, but I am skittish about tuning strings higher than the pitch for which they are designed.

[Tim Bowen]

I'd agree that for the short term, it's not that big a deal. However, if an instrument is to be settled into for the long haul with a specific tuning, then tension and string gauge absolutely are prime considerations.

As to short term, here are my basic rules of thumb:

* When tuning DOWN with standard gauge strings, always be prepared to strike the strings with less force, as the pitch initially goes sharp far more quickly.

* When tuning UP with standard gauge strings, always place the instrument away from the face of yourself and others.


As to long term considerations.

Some instruments, such as C6 lap steel, only really sound the way that they do because of extremely taut tension. If you tune that instrument up and the strings don't feel like they're about to pop, something's wrong.

I regularly gig and record with acoustic-electric and electric "high-string" guitars. As to achieving volume balance across the strings, all I can say is that it's tough to arrive at a happy medium without a significant degree of experimentation as to string gauge, string material, and pickup height (as applicable). This is probably the trickiest stringed instrument that I've personally dealt with in this respect.

As to mandolin, really, the only thing that I've done on a fairly regular basis has been to drop the high E course down to D, and usually for tunes with a Celtic/drone bent. I really like this approach in tandem with DADGAD-tuned guitars. 'A' is such a mando-friendly key (not that 'D' *isn't*...) that I guess I've never really considered cross tuning, although I can always see a point to any approach that facilitates a drone tuning. 'A' is the last key that I'd concern myself with in this light though, given that the upper two string courses represent the neutral root and fifth, respectively. I guess I'm a pretty big fan of the way the diatonic 6ths/inverted 3rds naturally lay on the lower two courses of strings in the key of A in standard, so I'm guilty of not having done much experimentation in this regard. There's always room for a new science project though.