not another old bowl back [Archive]

Dan Hoover

Nov-09-2009, 10:12pm

here's the Mayflower mando i recently picked up...it's in pretty decent shape...i wanted a player so i'm going to get it up and running..looking for suggestions..theres 1 crack,not too bad on top,not sure if i should tackle or not?theres a lot of scuffs and such,some i would guess from sitting in it's case for how many years?? frets don't look too bad,no deep gouges...i did find a number on the brace at the soundhole..#6693..
i'm looking for input on what would be a good approach?cleaners?re-freting?strings?not sure should i go the xtra on Thomastik or go w/GHS??other's??any input would be greatly appreciated..thanks...here's some pictures

Schlegel

Nov-09-2009, 10:54pm

Get it nice and hydrated, that crack may get quite a bit tighter, and be fixed by just rubbing some hide glue over it so it wicks down into it. If you wet the crack a little with some water first I think it helps pull the hide glue down. I had a very similar crack on a Washburn fixed that way.

Jake Wildwood

Nov-10-2009, 9:10am

On second thought, it's easier and just as good to use Titebond with the method Schlegel described... and it cleans up with water.

Nice Mayflower!

CES

Nov-10-2009, 9:31am

Wow, nice one. I passed on a sweet and as close to mint as you can get Italian bowlback a few months ago...still kicking myself over that one...

Dan Hoover

Nov-10-2009, 9:40am

EdHanrahan

Nov-10-2009, 10:11am

I wouldn't put a damp cloth on it; too likely to saturate glue and/or finish.

I re-hydrated a sunken arch-top (from bad bridge fit & placement) back into usable shape by sealing the unstrung mando in a plastic bag for several weeks with a guitar hydrator. Lacking that, I would have used a paper coffee cup with holes in the top and damp paper towel inside. Plenty of moisture but no actual liquid that might cause damage.

If you haven't yet, do check out Jake's blog - great reading! He knows his stuff on such old instruments.

Good luck - it looks great!

Schlegel

Nov-10-2009, 11:35am

Yes, in a bag for humidity like Ed said is the way to go.

I have wondered who made those Mayflower mandolins. They have always seemed extremely Martin or Vega-like to me. Maybe a tad more Martinish.

Jake Wildwood

Nov-10-2009, 11:44am

I've had two Vegas alongside a Mayflower recently and save for black finish on the neck of the Mayflower, all proportions, construction, dimensions, materials, etc. were spot on. Only minor cosmetic changes: slightly different fret markers and pickguard/soundhole ornamentation.

My guess is they came from the same maker.

They also all sound just as good, too. Really quality jobs.

Jake Wildwood

Nov-10-2009, 11:47am

thank's guy's,i was just getting ready to ask,i have a bottle of titebond,the regular woodglue..hope its still good?? but,i see they (Titebond) also make a hide glue? would that be better?
as for hydration? would a damp clothe on it awhile work? then lightly clamp after glueing?
i'm really happy with it so far,i've looked at a couple that were in pretty bad shape..this looks like it was sitting in it's case awhile,there's impressions of the lining on the mando...plus i found little dried out carcasses of some sort of larve...might have saved it just in time??
thank's again..

Don't use their hide glue. The bottled stuff is tricky to use correctly and doesn't seem to bond nearly as well as regular hide glue. The regular (red label "original") Titebond is what I use 99/100 times for wood-wood repair work.

Hydration: you could also simply put a wet sponge in a perforated plastic case (ie, a "humidifier") along with the mandolin in whatever case, bag, etc. you store it in.

Dan Hoover

Nov-10-2009, 2:26pm

great...thanks again...my bottle of glue was pretty well spent..i have a bad habit of leaving glues,caulks and such in my garage,no heat,then never going for them again,till i need it...
i'm a little worried about where this crack is?? it's right alongside the pick guard...it looks like the guard is lifting a tad,i would guess it's brittle???should this be a major concern??
hydration tips all sound good,thanks...i'll claim a area in my wifes craft room...
Before i bag it up though,i believe i'll try and get some of the grime off..clean up the machine heads,tailpiece cover and such....
this has a black neck also..it has a #6693 on the brace just inside the sound hole..so i guess a pretty high-mass-production for whatever year it is?? curious if there's anyone here or any written record of who Wurlitzer might have contracted?? sounds like Vega,Martin and whoever were making a lot of these for Wurlitzer?? either way,they sound really cool..and thats just from my voice reverberating in it...
i'll be posting pictures of the progress on my little restoration...and asking a bunch load more of questions...thank's..

billkilpatrick

Nov-11-2009, 7:13am

dan - i play my bowlback every now and then - looks wonderful but i'm not wild about its sound. it's good to have one, however. hope you enjoy yours.

jake - thanks for the advice. i've got a baritone uke with a hairline crack in it and a few pellets of rabbit's glue - i'll melt them down in a bain-marie and have a go.

Dan Hoover

Nov-11-2009, 10:22am

thank's bill..i guess i picked it up for a couple reason's? one being i remember my aunt having one hanging on her wall,she would never let me play with it..for very good reason's,i was probably 6 or 7 then...and it belong to her father or grandfather?they're italian,don't know what it was..or what ever happened to it?none of my cousin's remember..
and i guess just the idea of having one..something a little different than my Washburn??not a everyday player..but a different sound? plus i like antique's...and this gives me something to do,play around with...
i really couldn't pass it up...i was kicking around buying a new Eastman A oval,then came across this,then i saw Lee Gwin has his Eastman for sale here..really good price...kicked myself once..but i was committed...
once up and running,i'll show it off a little,maybe practice one of those Beatle songs??
Again greatly appreciate everyones advice..

EdHanrahan

Nov-11-2009, 10:49am

... i'm a little worried about where this crack is?? it's right alongside the pick guard...it looks like the guard is lifting a tad,i would guess it's brittle???should this be a major concern??

Good question. You may be aware of older Martin guitars having a "standard" top crack where the under-the-finish celluloid pickguard, glued to the raw top with solvent, has shrunken and maybe curled up at the edges. Sometimes even the top curls up along the edge of the pickguard.

In comparison, yours looks pretty benign, especially for its age, so that might not be an issue. I'm guessing that the guard is probably tortoise?

and i guess just the idea of having one..something a little different ... ..but a different sound? plus i like antique's...and this gives me something to do,play around with... i really couldn't pass it up...

Yup, me too. That's why Jake is fixing up my slot-head eBay prize right now!

Dan Hoover

Nov-11-2009, 11:30am

Ed, there's a little lifting of the pickguard on the crack side just along the edge..not too bad...but i wonder if it is tortoise? being that so many were made? would not have liked to be a turtle back then...Jakes the man..amazing what he brings back...

Dan Hoover

Jan-05-2010, 2:00pm

well,thought i'd post a update on " this old bowlback "..i removed the strings to do clean up,After the string's were removed,i notice some separation in the back..at one rib..about 7-8 inches in length..no split's or crack's in the wood..nothing crumbled away...just complete separation..push's together very easy...
i'm not sure why this wasn't separated before?there were no high spots on the back at all..back was smooth...i did have it hydrating for about a week or so?could that have been why?i can't believe taking the strings off released the tension on the back? at least that much..it was missing 4 strings and was completing de-tuned...
After spending some time here and online,looking for a plan of attack..i've come to this method...basically forcing glue into the separation,then using a fine-line tape,bring the separation together with the tape holding it..sounds simple..but i know, nothings ever too simple....
My question and concern's...am i missing something??door's open there....i still have a lot of cleaning to do on this,if i glue this,will naphtha dissolve my gluing work? and i'm concerned about some of the other rib's maybe loosening later..especially if i continue hydrating it..if that's what brought this on to begin with?? they don't appear to be loose,nothing did to begin with either though....is there a way of sealing the backside from the back?just as a xtra precaution?
any thought's would be greatly appreciated...

Jim Garber

Jan-05-2010, 2:58pm

Bowlbacks are arguably an acquired taste, but one I have acquired over the years. My best sounding antique bowlback is my Vega. The prime characteristic that distinguishes Vegas is that the bridge is positioned on the tailpiece side of the cant (fold in the top). I am not sure that is the same for the Mayflowers tho I have not seen on in person.

I recently had an Antonio Grauso mandolin that I sold for a friend of mine. The sound was quite nice and he had invested some restoration in it, primarily that he replaced the fretboard so that you would use a higher bridge. That is one of the subtle problems with these over time: the neck joint settles so that you have to shave down the bridge and therefore lose tone and volume.

JeffD

Jan-05-2010, 3:37pm

The neck joint looks good, and, to my untrained eye, like it has never been repaired. That is the first place I check, and if the mandolin body and neck have parted there, or if its loose, or if it has been repaired, I pass. So in your case - yea it looks good.

I have more than a few bowlbacks, (see my album), and two of them have an amazing sound, as loud and full as any my Gibson A2. I play them regularly at jams, and they hold their own, for volume and tone.

Of the other two, one is not playable, the other has a sweet but small sound. A little dainty. That one is, as Jim said, an acquired taste. It notes well farther up the neck than I go, and has a nice ringiness to it. But unlike my two beasts, this one can't be pushed, the tone quality just goes away when you pluck hard.

Bowlbacks are a whole lot of fun, especially played out in public at a jam or performance.

Its fun just carrying the case around in airports, I meet a lot of curious eyes and answer a lot of questions.

EdHanrahan

Jan-05-2010, 4:13pm

... if i glue this,will naphtha dissolve my gluing work?

I'm far from an authority, but comments from Jake W. (who'll may chime in here!) plus further research (that is, reading of glue bottles) leads me to this current belief:

- White glue, such as Elmers, should be avoided; easy clean-up, but it will creep over time when under tension. See Jake's blog for comments on my bowlback! http://antebelluminstruments.blogspot.com/2009/10/around-shop-again.html
(It came out great! After completion, he posted it in the "Show a Picture..." section here).

- The similar but darker "woodworkers glues" are water-dilutable but some are not water-soluble for clean-up. That's a bad thing.

- Same problem with Super / Crazy glue in such an exposed location - the surface may not be cleanable.

A proper woodworkers glue will seal the joint but still be cleanable on the outside after it's actually dry. My understanding is that the bit of water that it takes to clean the surface will not saturate the joint fast enough to loosen it. Maybe best to re-apply tension after clean-up for a day or two, until you're sure it's thoroughly dry.

I suspect that naphtha is probably little worse than water; whatever's on the surface for general cleaning, I assume, shouldn't have time to saturate the joint.

Take my comments as probably worth what you paid for them but, hopefully, they'll set you in the right direction. Maybe a question in the Luthiers section? Good luck!

Dan Hoover

Jan-05-2010, 9:18pm

Jim,Jeff and Ed, thank's..i checked out the patient again,the neck joint seems very stable..the separation is actually 6 inches from the joint..well, from where it looks like the stave has started to have risen some...double checking the separation,it is more around 5 inches in length,it doesn't take too much to push it together,nothing else appears to be loose or uneven?? so i believe tape should hold in place? like you said ed, keeping pressure on it for a couple day's definitely...
this bridge was set at the same position,the tailpiece side of the cant..two piece's missing where the A and E strings set,not sure if that's a big deal?
i've only ever played one bowl back before,a friend who has one for a prop for in his painting's..i really like the feel and sound of the bowl?and i was looking for something to mess with this winter..while it's too cold outside, need to keep busy...hopefully,this will be a nice little player??and maybe lead to another down the road??:grin:
as for a case,that's next,the original is in very bad shape...
i'll post some pictures as i go,if interested?thank's for the input...dan

Jim Garber

Jan-05-2010, 11:38pm

Try this one at Hobgoblin Music (http://www.hobgoblin-usa.com/local/product.php?ID=GR3170) for a case. Or spend a little more and get an Eastman.

Dan Hoover

Jan-06-2010, 7:33am

Try this one at Hobgoblin Music (http://www.hobgoblin-usa.com/local/product.php?ID=GR3170) for a case. Or spend a little more and get an Eastman.

thank's Jim,that looks like a fine case for this..i have so many sites in my bookmark's,i completely over looked Hobgoblin..getting better organized is one of the resolution's my wife made for me this year..
i saw Elderly has a $35 case on backorder??but,i'm sure that's exactly what it is?? this $100 case is probably padded some i'm sure..
i'll maybe get the eastman on the next one... ;)

Jim Garber

Jan-06-2010, 8:06am

Actually, Dan, before you buy the ojne from Hobgoblin, check out this ebay seller who has what looks like a very similar case (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370306468541) for about 1/2 the price.

The same seller has this case (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390129388641) which looks very similar to a Korean made case I have bought from Lark in the Morning.

Also the Elderly case is a chipboard one.

EdHanrahan

Jan-06-2010, 10:15am

... this bridge was set at the same position, the tailpiece side of the cant

Most setups put the bridge on the soundhole side of the cant, but only a proper intonation setup will define where the bridge should be. (Frets.com to the rescue!) There's also an issue of where the underlying bracing intends it to be. For comparison, some here have claimed that the bridge of '20s Stromberg-Voisinets should fall on the tailpiece side of the cant, but mine definitely does not.

..two piece's missing where the A and E strings set

I can see in your first photo where the bridge's separating tab between the E strings has broken off. Maybe the A has popped since the photo? I had a similar issue at the nut end of a 0-fret 12-string ('71 Epiphone, cheap plastic nut) and, after several kluged fixes, ended up making a new nut. But in your case, since the bridge is no longer pristine and especially if the action is a bit high at the body end, I'd be tempted to simply put small nothes directly into the bone (?) saddle.

A careful view of your first photo shows that the bridge is slightly offset toward the E-string side, probably due to the lack of tension from the missing E's. So just stringing it "as is" is pretty sure to have both E's pulled together toward the middle w/in the now-wide notch, while they ride the edge of the fretboard or maybe even fall over it.

But that's a VERY nice bridge, with some pretty complex topography! I'd really hate to replace it. Notching the saddle slightly, if the action is high enough, seems like the least of the probable evils.

And also: Such uncompensated bridges can never get all strings dead on accurate. Most folks are content with getting the Gs and Es intonated correctly. IF some other compromise puts the bridge squarely over the intended internal bracing, that might be best result of all.

Hope this helps!

Jim Garber

Jan-06-2010, 10:26am

But in your case, since the bridge is no longer pristine and especially if the action is a bit high at the body end, I'd be tempted to simply put small nothes directly into the bone (?) saddle.
<snip>
But that's a VERY nice bridge, with some pretty complex topography! I'd really hate to replace it. Notching the saddle slightly, if the action is high enough, seems like the least of the probable evils.

Well, I am not a luthier, but I would think it would not be so difficult to glue in a piece of rosewood and re cut the bridge slots. Those bone insert bridges do work nicely. I would also think that you might be able to compensate the bone piece if done correctly.

The other alternative would be to make a repro bridge. To save some time you could have Dave Hynds (http://www.mandolinluthier.com/mandolin-bridges.htm) make you one. he can even compensate it for you.

Dan Hoover

Jan-06-2010, 11:06am

Jim,thank's for the lead on the ebay store,appears the seller has a few of each of these case's at the same price..i know you have a few of these,in your opinion,of the two different designs,which case would be more practical?is there really a big difference? storage wise? for protection? in all honesty,once this mando is up and running,it'll be in it's case till i feel like playing it, won't be traveling,unless i decide to send it down the road...
Ed,thats exactly what happened with the A string tab,it must have had a weak spot? fell right off after i detuned the string some more..or maybe with the E's gone,might have made a A string cut into it?? the tab's,i guess,are a pretty brittle piece? i would really like to use the original bridge..
i'm debating when the time comes for set up/string's,intonation..i might take it to a luthier in my area that kevin briggs on here turned me on to? i believe my heart would hit the floor the second i snap a string that i paid $35 for...ouch...
thank's again

Jim Garber

Jan-06-2010, 11:24am

Jim,thank's for the lead on the ebay store,appears the seller has a few of each of these case's at the same price..i know you have a few of these,in your opinion,of the two different designs,which case would be more practical?is there really a big difference? storage wise? for protection? in all honesty,once this mando is up and running,it'll be in it's case till i feel like playing it, won't be traveling,unless i decide to send it down the road...

I would go with the second one. They work very nicely and are prob a little lighter and less bulky. I have a few of them and they are fine for most cases. In any case (no pun intended) I might use a strap to make sure that the closing clips don't open by themselves if I was traveling anywhere, but they are quite serviceable.

EdHanrahan

Jan-06-2010, 11:28am

i believe my heart would hit the floor the second i snap a string that i paid $35 for...ouch...

Well yeah, mine too! But $35? FWIW, Jake strung mine up with 2 sets of tenor banjo strings at way, WAY less than that price. And it sounds really good!

I was thrown when my old (plastic & just slightly flexible) StewMac caliper measured them as .009, .012, .022, & .028, but Jake confirmed that was accurate.

Jim Garber

Jan-06-2010, 11:36am

Dan must mean $35 per set and prob has Thomastik strings.

Interesting that Jake uses two sets of banjo strings. That should work nicely esp if you like the tone of nickel strings. You could also use GHS A240 (http://www.juststrings.com/ghs-a240.html) (for those on a budget) or my generally preferred strings for bowlbacks Dogal Calace RW92B (http://bernunzio.com/products/QRRW92B).

Dan Hoover

Jan-06-2010, 11:48am

thank's Jim,i found Dave Hynd's web site awhile back...very informative..i've been going to it back/forth for couple now..i found this thread of Dave guiding Jim Baker on his bowl back,amazing..
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42604
i may take my bridge to a luthier here in my area,within the next day or so?see what he has to say also? give him a heads up on what i have going..get some pointers..i greatly appreciate all the input i have received..
i have a set of Thomastik's..i was gonna go all in for the GHS's...in fact my wife said to me "But arn't they the same??" i may just get a set of GHS's if i do decide to go with it myself...what was that movie? about a lion and courage? thank's