Good or Great Mandolins: What Makes the Difference?

[Caleb]

A recent visit to a shop with many nice mandolins has had me asking this question over and over for the past month. Let’s assume that a “good” mandolin is one that was made primarily “by hand,” as that has come to be understood (e.g. hand-carved top). Obviously the internal parts of any instrument have to be hand-assembled; the same with installing binding, etc. As far as I know there are no machines (yet) that a person can load up with wood and other materials, push a button, and out the other side pops a completed instrument ready to be strung up.

First of all, let’s ignore the entire issue of price difference. We all know that builders will charge what people will pay—simple as that. No harm done either way. So price should not really make an instrument good or great; it only makes one expensive or cheap[er]. I understand the contributing factors, such as labor and cost of materials; but for the most part, the price is what people will pay for the item.

What I’m more concerned with are the technical aspects of good and great instruments. For example, Eastmans and Kentuckys, brands that most here consider very decent instruments, have models that come with hand-carved, all-solid woods, hand-applied finishes, radiused boards, etc, etc. The same specs you’d see on a Collings, Weber, Gibson, et al. But on my recent visit I noticed the vast difference in tone and feel of a Collings and the Eastmans, in particular. I paid closer attention because I’ve always wanted a Collings instrument, and I own an Eastman instrument. My Eastman is a nice mandolin; it plays in tune, has a balanced tone, good volume, has the ease of playability that I enjoy, etc. But the Collings had all of these qualities as well. And each one was superior to the Eastman, some in slight ways, and others vast (volume especially). The Collings even “felt” better in my hands. I also noticed that the Gibsons just “felt” better than the less expensive, yet still “good” mandolins.

Does it simply come down to the builder adding personal nuances during the process? Slight tricks that cannot be seen with the eye necessarily? I have a Luthier friend that insists that it’s the quality of the tonewoods that makes the difference. He claims that with the right wood combinations a Stew Mac kit could rival any bench-built instrument from any maker, past or present. Do the Eastmans, Kentuckys, et al simply use inferior woods, though “solid” inferior woods? I know there is the occasional “import” that defies all the odds, but for the most part they fall just short of the Collings, Webers and Gibsons that we hear so much about.

I would really like to understand what ultimately makes the difference.

[Capt. E]

One of the first differences I notice about a mass produced instrument and a fine hand-built luthier product is the weight of it. On first visual inspection a Kentucky may look very much like an Ellis or an Altman for example, but the Kentucky can weigh 30-40% more. One of the reasons for increased volume etc must simply be the mass of the instrument. I expect the thinly carved tops and backs etc will resonate and vibrate more strongly as the strings are struck resulting in a much more dynamic sound.

[OldSausage]

"Good or Great Mandolins: What Makes the Difference"? The answer is: you do, my friend.

[Charley wild]

To answer your question I think Lord only knows. A great design, great materials, and great craftmanship will generally turn out a superior mandolin. But a great one? I just got back from trying about ten mandolins at a store. Some pretty expensive, some not so and couple in between. A used Kentucky 675 was the best of the bunch? Why? I don't think anyone can tell for sure. The next 675 might be just okay. I'm not going to trash brands here but two of the mandolins I played today were big name brands selling for a few thousand. It's a fun subject to mull over but I don't think there is a definite answer.

[Steve Ostrander]

A good mandolin becomes a great mandolin when the owner is trying to sell it.

[Caleb]

"Good or Great Mandolins: What Makes the Difference"? The answer is: you do, my friend.
I think I understand the sentiment here, and I tend to agree with that sentiment. But if I'm doing the same thing on seven different instruments and one stands out with better volume and overall response, it's the instrument.

[instrumentality]

I know very very little about mandolin construction other than the wonderful primers I've received when shopping for mandos. I know a tiny bit more than that about violin construction thanks to the restoration project I had completed for me this past summer.

Based on what my luthier told me over the course of the process, I'd bet the previous post that mentioned the difference in weight between Kentuckys/Eastmans and Collings/etc. is right; the luthier that worked on my fiddle explained that a lot of the sound quality comes from subtleties in the thickness and graduation of the top and bottom plates of the fiddle (among many other things too, of course). Too heavy/thick and the sound is muffled, too thin and it can be harsh, etc...

I'm sure I'm not putting this in very expert terms, but on the whole I'd take interpret it to mean that even within different brands of instruments that are all hand-carved, hand graduated, hand-everything, solid-wood, etc., that the subtleties of construction could still vary, leading to different qualities of instruments.

[Tony Sz]

One of the first differences I notice about a mass produced instrument and a fine hand-built luthier product is the weight of it. On first visual inspection a Kentucky may look very much like an Ellis or an Altman for example, but the Kentucky can weigh 30-40% more. One of the reasons for increased volume etc must simply be the mass of the instrument. I expect the thinly carved tops and backs etc will resonate and vibrate more strongly as the strings are struck resulting in a much more dynamic sound.

While I tend to like lighter weight instruments, I'm not so sure that weight separates the good from the great. Why? Because I've played great sounding and playing examples from both camps (although I've probably played more poor instruments that were heavy as opposed to light). I once played a really mando that seemed unusually heavy. When I picked it up I was thinking well, this can't be terribly good, but upon playing it , I was totally surprised. I guess at this point, for me, weight by itself is not the issue.

[Tony Sz]

I once played a really mando that seemed unusually heavy.

oops, please disregard the word "really" in my previous post.

[re simmers]

I've learned a lot from similar threads, and I've tried to prove the luthiers right....or wrong. Well, they are right. The difference is more than can be written here. There are so many details in wood, and in the expert craftsmanship. I am convinced that the difference, if you are measuring, is in the consistancy. I am confident that a Kentucky 675 (overall) will not consistantly be as GREAT as a Randy Wood or an Altman, Kimble, Ellis, Daley, Stanley, Gilchrist, etc. I've read and heard the conversations about, "have you ever played a bad Daley or Stanley or Wood," and the answer is usually "no" or "it needs a set up" or "it's not broken in yet." Of course, I'm referring to the builder of a mandolin, not a specific one.

Bob

I hope no one says we've already discussed this. I get a lot out of these threads.

[Nick Triesch]

A good or great instrument is really the luck of the draw. A $3500 Weber can sound better than a $20000 Gilchrist. Or the other way around. Some makers make more consistant sounding mandolins but really, it's finding a great sounding mandolin that is the trick. The best mandolin I have ever played in 30 years was $7000 not $25000.

[sunburst]

The details.

[Matt DeBlass]

I'm also in the "I'm no expert but..." camp, but I'll throw in my two cents. It seems to me that, since wood is such a variable material, there's a certain element of chance in whether a wooden instrument will become really great or not. However, what an experienced builder can do is work with the characteristics of each individual piece of wood to bring out the best sound it's capable of. Of course "best" also depends on what the builder thinks it should sound like, so each builder's personal preference will be reflected in the instrument.

[Charley wild]

One thing that has to be mentioned in a thread like is that beautiful sound is in the ear of the beholder. Who says a certain mandolin sounds better than another? Me? You?
Quite often I see posts here that lead me to believe that to many the answer to greatness is written on the peghead. How many times have I read here someone apologizing for a fairly expensive mandolin that obviously hasn't lived up to their expectations. "It's hasn't opened up yet, but it's a Collins, Weber, etc." (I'm not picking on these two brands, I'm just making a point) "It doesn't have the volume but it has sweet tone" is another often heard comment. There are many more of these telling comments but you get my point. They are willing to forgive a big name brand mandolin no matter how average it sounds. These posters could never bring themselves to admit that they heard a PacRim mandolin at a jam or where ever that was "better" than their's.

[farmerjones]

Does someone here know definatively that F5MM tops are of a higher grade than an F5G? If they are, then was the makers intension to end up with a better instrument in the F5MM from birth.

If a grader from Collings, Eastman, and Gibson looked at 50 bits of tonewood, would they all grade them the same?

All things being equal at birth, it would be up to the luthier to tune the cavity. I do know each top and bottom even of the same grade is different.

Do luthier's from Collings, Eastman, and Gibson know the same things?
It's not in their best interest to divulge the finer points. Do they all come close? That's a matter of opinion. That little "stuff" is the difference between good and great. That's my theory, worth 0.

[re simmers]

If it's not consistancy, and it really is the luck of the draw, there sure are a lot of mandolin pickers willing to roll the dice. There are many top-notch builders who have waiting lists of people with $5,000 - $22,500 to try their luck & see if a Gilchrist will sound better than a Weber. No offense. I play a '91 Flatiron(Weber) and a Gallatin.

Bob


"If I call my guitar my "axe," does that mean my mandolin is my hatchet?"

My guitar is my axe. My mandolin is my gourd. My bass is my trunk.

[Bob DeVellis]

I agree with Charley. A great instrument for me is one that suits me. I've played instruments that some people have considered great that didn't do that much for me.

John is also correct that the details matter. Instruments can be dimensionally identical without sounding the same. A carefully built instrument is fabricated with a certain sound in mind and the assembly and materials are optimized for that goal. A top is graduated not merely to a specific set of dimensions but to dimensions that the builder are right for that top. Subtle details are worried over until they're as nearly perfect as possible. If instruments are being mass produced, it's hard to give the same attention to every detail or to adapt each instrument to the materials at hand as completely. The good news is that, unlike guitars, mandolins aren't being made by any one maker at the rate of over 50,000 per year. So, even instruments that are sort-of factory made (i.e., made by large companies) can get quite a bit of individual attention. The higher-priced models get more individual attention than the bottom-end ones do. All of that matters. Some instruments without attention will be spectacular purely by chance, because the graduations dialed in without specific regard for the top plate in question might be exactly right, purely by luck, for that particular top. But, on average, a smaller operation that tries to optimize each individual instrument will produce a higher proportion of really good mandolins.

But greatness, I feel, still resides in the interaction between the instrument and the player. What is great for one person may not be for another. All players don't have the same goals. Consensual greatness results to a degree from either (a) shared tastes or (b) pressure to go along with what others think (probably more the former than the latter). While I think broader classifications (e.g., not-so-good vs good vs very good vs really good) may have some basis in objective fact, true greatness really depends on how the instrument suits the individual player making the call. Of course, as I said, where players share a common taste, their judgments of greatness will be more similar than whey they don't.

[GTison]

Going shopping where there are several fine mandolins will tell you a lot. You might learn that you can't tell the difference between a KM-650 and a Kemnitzer Nugget. You may like the way one sounds over another but no one else likes that one. I went shopping. I found the more I played different mandolins the more I liked certain brand's sound. I found a predictability of sound & quality in different brands (Builders). There are sound variations to be sure within a certain Model by a builder. But in shopping it's difficult to tell the quality without a point of reference, like taking a mandolin that you know with you and comparing it to the new ones. I was able to do that. Did I end up with a "GREAT" mandolin? Some folks say yes some say no. But it is greater than I am at playing it. It was the one I thought sounded like I wanted at the time that I could afford. I still like it. But in playing all those other mandolins that SOMEONE bought, I learned to respect some builders and those who choose their mandolins.
Sometimes I think people's BELIEF that 'THEIR mandolin is Great' is much more powerful than the mandolin really being great.
I have played some mandolins that I have heard on recordings of some top names. I was mystified as to how they got that sound out of that mandolin. I couldn't get anything like that out of it, it sounded so ordinary. So there is a lot of sound in the hands playing the mandolin. It is much better to be a great player than to have a great mandolin.

[Caleb]

I agree with Charley. A great instrument for me is one that suits me. I've played instruments that some people have considered great that didn't do that much for me.

John is also correct that the details matter. Instruments can be dimensionally identical without sounding the same. A carefully built instrument is fabricated with a certain sound in mind and the assembly and materials are optimized for that goal. A top is graduated not merely to a specific set of dimensions but to dimensions that the builder are right for that top. Subtle details are worried over until they're as nearly perfect as possible. If instruments are being mass produced, it's hard to give the same attention to every detail or to adapt each instrument to the materials at hand as completely. The good news is that, unlike guitars, mandolins aren't being made by any one maker at the rate of over 50,000 per year. So, even instruments that are sort-of factory made (i.e., made by large companies) can get quite a bit of individual attention. The higher-priced models get more individual attention than the bottom-end ones do. All of that matters. Some instruments without attention will be spectacular purely by chance, because the graduations dialed in without specific regard for the top plate in question might be exactly right, purely by luck, for that particular top. But, on average, a smaller operation that tries to optimize each individual instrument will produce a higher proportion of really good mandolins.

But greatness, I feel, still resides in the interaction between the instrument and the player. What is great for one person may not be for another. All players don't have the same goals. Consensual greatness results to a degree from either (a) shared tastes or (b) pressure to go along with what others think (probably more the former than the latter). While I think broader classifications (e.g., not-so-good vs good vs very good vs really good) may have some basis in objective fact, true greatness really depends on how the instrument suits the individual player making the call. Of course, as I said, where players share a common taste, their judgments of greatness will be more similar than whey they don't.This is an excellent post. The entire second paragraph answered many of my questions. Thank you.

And yes, as re simmers said, I also get a lot out of these threads.

[hank]

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

[fatt-dad]

I think what makes a good instrument is a committment to stick with it. It's certainly what makes a great wife! A few years ago, I decided to stop my persuit for an F-style (f-hole) mandolin and just be happy with my Flatiron A5. I love it already, but kept thinking I'd find better. Knowing that it just doesn't matter and that my Flatiron is good for me, makes it a life-long instrument (for me). If you can't be happy with your woman or your mandolin, then you'll always have a wondering eye.

Guitars too, sigh. . .

f-d

[Caleb]

It is much better to be a great player than to have a great mandolin.
This is wisdom. Someone should make that their sig line.

[Patrick Gunning]

The details.

This.

[Nick Triesch]

A few years back I went into a high end shop and played a $3500 mandolin on the wall that was way more responsive and very loud than anything on the wall. The manager agreed it was a super mandolin but he felt that the sound of the Collings mandolins were much more complex whatever that means. He liked the much more quiet complex mandolins better.. Not me! I know Collings mandolins can be great mandolins also but on this day the $3500 mando beat the $7500 mando hands down. In the words of a very well known instrument repairman in San Diego..." "it's a ****shoot when buying an F type mandolin whatever the cost".

[Capt. E]

I agree that in the end it is the interaction between the player and the instrument that makes the final difference. To have an instrument that "suits" you is a great thing. It still may not be a "great" instrument, but if it gives the player great pleasure, what else do you want?

[John Kinn]

If you had a variety of mandos to try, you should play them blindfolded...Then you might be better able to hear what instrument spoke to YOU. And you might get yourself a bit of a surprise....

[fredfrank]

I'm no expert, but I play one on the internet . . .

One point I see mentioned with regards to mandolins is top graduating. Now, while this part of the process is important, it is also vital that the back be graduated every bit as carefully. The whole instrument has to work together to be great. I believe that some of the low-end mandolins do not achieve that goal.

Just an observation of mine based on owning many of the great, and not so great mandolins.

[Nolan]

I like a mandolin that makes me excited to play everyday and allows me to do things that I normally can't do on "Pretty good" instruments. It always seems that those instruments are more $$$ but not always.

[mandroid]

If it's made from a natural material and made by homo sapiens, :redface:
then each one will be slightly different from even another from the same batch.

as someone who cannot go to where I can pick from a wall of instruments
I console myself to be happy enough with what I have , :whistling:

after all there are children in other countries that only get to have a Kalashnikov AK 47 .

:popcorn:

[OldSausage]

One point I see mentioned with regards to mandolins is top graduating. Now, while this part of the process is important, it is also vital that the back be graduated every bit as carefully. The whole instrument has to work together to be great. I believe that some of the low-end mandolins do not achieve that goal.

If this is true, it must be also true that some people can graduate these pieces of wood correctly. Therefore there must be a way to figure out what that right way is. If that way is really understood, then it should be possible for anyone to apply it, even to a mass production process.

[Michael Lewis]

The graduations of the plates are only one aspect to a very complex structure. To have a great instrument all the elements must come together to work in agreement among themselves.

The other main element is the person that will play the instrument. The ability to sense, use, and appreciate the qualities of an instrument are also very important in this regard. An old violin maker explained to me that a great concert violin is like a formula one race car in that there are very few people actually qualified to operate it. Anyone can drive (or play) but it takes a masterful skill to bring out the great qualities of the car (instrument).

I find a lot of well meaning folks don't have enough knowledge or skill to tell a good instrument from a great one. Don't get me wrong, they know what they like, they can easily pick out "the best" mandolin on the wall, but often better players will select different instrument from the same wall.

[Fretbear]

I find a lot of well meaning folks don't have enough knowledge or skill to tell a good instrument from a great one. Don't get me wrong, they know what they like, they can easily pick out "the best" mandolin on the wall, but often better players will select different instrument from the same wall.
This reminds me of the story of Mike Marshall getting Tony Rice to select a guitar for him when he needed one to play in the DGQ. According to Mike, Tony just went down the long line of Martin's hanging on the wall and without taking any of them down, simply plucked the open D and G strings until he found one he liked and said: "this is a great guitar...."

[billkilpatrick]

so ... it's:

- best quality material
- individual attention during construction
- consistency

i was wondering if one person's "good" rating would be "great" to someone else?

[AlanN]

to try their luck

Sounds like Wheel of Fortune or a carnival game of chance.

I look at instrument research/purchase/collection in a totally different light, but that's just me.

[Mandoist]

$250 or $250,000....
The money, material, maker or model really means nothing in the end.

Sound, appearance & feel is as relative as it gets.

* Your ears..
* Your eyes...
* Your feel....
* Your touch....
* Your everything.

[grassrootphilosopher]

Yes but when it comes to your feel etc. a great instrument will practically "play by itself" and sounds "like a million dollars" (compared to all other instruments).

[OldSausage]

The graduations of the plates are only one aspect to a very complex structure. To have a great instrument all the elements must come together to work in agreement among themselves.

The other main element is the person that will play the instrument. The ability to sense, use, and appreciate the qualities of an instrument are also very important in this regard. An old violin maker explained to me that a great concert violin is like a formula one race car in that there are very few people actually qualified to operate it. Anyone can drive (or play) but it takes a masterful skill to bring out the great qualities of the car (instrument).

I find a lot of well meaning folks don't have enough knowledge or skill to tell a good instrument from a great one. Don't get me wrong, they know what they like, they can easily pick out "the best" mandolin on the wall, but often better players will select different instrument from the same wall.

Hm, so it's so complicated that it can't be explained or understood, and if I don't have sufficient mojo I can't even tell good from great anyway. I'm going to have to ask my witch doctor if this is really true.

[Charley wild]

The graduations of the plates are only one aspect to a very complex structure. To have a great instrument all the elements must come together to work in agreement among themselves.

The other main element is the person that will play the instrument. The ability to sense, use, and appreciate the qualities of an instrument are also very important in this regard. An old violin maker explained to me that a great concert violin is like a formula one race car in that there are very few people actually qualified to operate it. Anyone can drive (or play) but it takes a masterful skill to bring out the great qualities of the car (instrument).

I find a lot of well meaning folks don't have enough knowledge or skill to tell a good instrument from a great one. Don't get me wrong, they know what they like, they can easily pick out "the best" mandolin on the wall, but often better players will select different instrument from the same wall.

I may not be able to drive a formula one car like professional but I can sure distinguish it from driving a Buick!:)

[sunburst]

...there must be a way to figure out what that right way is. If that way is really understood, then it should be possible for anyone to apply it, even to a mass production process.


Hm, so it's so complicated that it can't be explained or understood, and if I don't have sufficient mojo I can't even tell good from great anyway. I'm going to have to ask my witch doctor if this is really true.

Well I'm not sure which one of those is correct, but one thing's for sure, there's no middle ground; it must be one of the other...:whistling:

[AlanN]

John Moore played (plays) a Kentucky.

Sure sounds great to me.

[Mandoist]

Yes but when it comes to your feel etc. a great instrument will practically "play by itself" and sounds "like a million dollars" (compared to all other instruments).


Make that a 'quarter of a million' dollars and we have a deal!


:whistling:

[GTG]

I find this a pretty naive thread. John (Sunburst)'s ironic responses are telling - post this question on the builder's forum and see what responses are.

Better yet, don't post it, but do a search. (One idea - search 'Stradivarius'; this ground ("what makes an inst. great") has been covered many times on this board.)

[OldSausage]

I find this a pretty naive thread. John (Sunburst)'s ironic responses are telling - post this question on the builder's forum and see what responses are.

Better yet, don't post it, but do a search. (One idea - search 'Stradivarius'; this ground ("what makes an inst. great") has been covered many times on this board.)

But the old threads are all so tedious.

[Charles E.]

The details.

Amen brother

[Kevin Briggs]

I like the thread, and it saves me from searching for something on the Cafe's search engine.

Listen to the YouTube clip of Grisman playing an Eastman. It sounds like my friend's Eastman. I kind of like the sound, but it is distinctive to its name, as far as I can hear. I have also heard a great Eastman that sounded like a dream: chunky, loud, and dynamic.

There's nothing that replaces the details, as Mr. Hamlett stated. If you get someone who believes in mandolins and how extraordinary they will be, that person will build with that in mind and his or hers mandolins will reflect it in some way. As tedious as I'm sure it must be to be a luthier, I also don't think anyone could be a luthier without loving it in some way.

What am I trying to say? There are people and companies out there that are doing their best to make the best instruments they can make, even down to the smallest details, and their mandolins show it. I'd buy a Hamlett in a second if I could spend more money on a luxury mandolin. There would be no question. You just know that the guy would build you something first class. I could go buy a mass-produced brand right now without breaking the bank and it would be a toss up.

Thinking something something is good is personal, yes. What makes something personal is, as Vaughn Hebron would say, "... a book." For example, I love my custom Weber Fern. I love the tone and volume for sure, and that's the bottom line, but I also love the way they treated me in a tough time. It makes me proud to play one of their mandolins. To me, that's part of the mojo. Oh yeah, and this just in, they know how to apply finishes pretty good. So for me I hear the tone that I love and feel good to hold it as well, so that's my personal response to the instrument. I think it probably helps that it plays like butter, for whatever reason. :-)

[mandroid]

Ah, back to the prior observation: [not mine] "writing about music is like dancing about architecture" .

[Kevin Briggs]

Droid,

I couldn't disagree more. I respect ya, but I can't submit to the notion that there's nothing for us to say about these things that we love. If we give in to that philosophy then it really has no boundaries, and I mean no boundaries. I believe that things matter, and as people we can do okay by talking about them. Will we ever arrive at the essence of our experience? Impossible. But we can be people and not rocks in the meantime.

[grassrootphilosopher]

Make that a 'quarter of a million' dollars and we have a deal!


:whistling:

So far I´ve been trying hard and without succes to get a raise in my wages, haven´t won the lottery so far and still I´m to ashamed a guy to rob monthly paychecks off of old ladies. Your´s is a swell sounding instrument, by all means. D.H.´s setup is equally great. So if ever a bag of money floats my way, I´ll give a shout. By the way, your D-guitar is very nice as well (from hearing it last year at the White Mountain Bluegrass singing workshop at Voorthuizen).

[Caleb]

I find this a pretty naive thread. John (Sunburst)'s ironic responses are telling - post this question on the builder's forum and see what responses are.

Better yet, don't post it, but do a search. (One idea - search 'Stradivarius'; this ground ("what makes an inst. great") has been covered many times on this board.)
I genuinely don't understand the point of this post. Is the thread naive? Maybe. But I was always told the "dumb" question, or in this case the "naive" question, was the one left unasked.

Also, I'm sure the search could be utilized for most any topic here, and if that's all we did there would be little discussion left, which would make this a pretty boring message board.

[Dfyngravity]

There are so many variables that go into building instruments but I think the two that are the most important.

First one is experience. The luthiers that are building the mandolins for Kentucky, Eastman, Collings, and Gibson are all at different levels of experience. It is not likely that someone who builds Kentucky mandolins would have enough experience to walk into Gibson or Collings and build a mandolin of that quality. The importance of experience is truly invaluable. Everything from knowing how to truly graduate the top and back to the perfect amount of glue necessary to glue two pieces of wood together. When people comment on the weight of the instrument, this is where that comes in to play. From the thickness of the top and back, neck, amount of glue, to the amount of finish.....all of these are great factors in that. And obviously the weight of the mandolin truly has a great effect on the overall sound. The more weight, the more you have to set in motion.

The second one is all about the quality to quantity ratio. The ratio for Kentucky is definitely heavy on the quantity side. They are trying to produce a very high number of mandolins per year. And as the number goes up, the quality unfortunately will start to go the opposite way. I think Eastman has done a great job in trying to balance that ratio out, and they have done so by going back to the experience factor and hiring luthiers that are more qualified for the job. When you get into Gibson or Collings level, the ratio is definitely tip the other way and quality is now a greater concern. However, the quantity is still a big concern because X amount of instruments need to be produced and sold in order to stay a float. When you get into individual builders, quantity is still a concern but far less. At this level, quality is the greatest concern, after all if you want to put food on the table you need to be building great mandolins that people want in order to sell them. One bad mandolin from an individual builder has a much greater effect on them than it does Gibson and far much more than Kentucky.

What does all of this have to do with what makes a good versus a great mandolin. In the line of mass produced mandolin, you are more likely to find a great mandolin with a company that is more concerned about quality and is producing a smaller number because they typically have more qualified luthiers with a greater amount of experience.

When you get into the world of individual builders, again experience has a great effect. As the level of experience goes up, I think you are more likely to find a great mandolin versus a good mandolin.

[re simmers]

Experience AND expertise. Skaggs was a mandolin pro at what.....3 years old or something like that. Sam Bush, Chris Thile, etc. They very simply had a gift. And I could practice 8 hours a day until I'm 100 and not play as well as Skaggs did at 12.

I think it's the same for builders. Gil, Dude........these guys are gifted, and now they are experienced.

The point has been made that you can't know how good the mandolin is until you've played it. I agree. Some of these builders are experts at building, but also gifted at designing what you or I want. If you want a mandolin that plays 'like butter,' sounds like Loar, looks distressed, etc, etc, and you tell a reputable builder that's what you want........and he says, yes I can get build that........you will probably get it. A reputation for consistancy is the way to measure........designing, knowing where to buy the wood, selecting the wood, building the mandolin to a players specs. Yes there are exceptions. Very rarely there may be a lemon, or there may be a WalMart 'killer' mandolin, but I doubt it.

Bob

[hank]

Ah Grasshopper, You wish to know difference of bad, good and great mandolin.
You no worry now answer is simple. Environment and nurture key to how mandolin come out.

Bad mandolin born in big factory with too many brother and sister. No love, only hurry hurry every time think of it. Poor mandolins line up on racks sad and over weight with too much wood, glue and shiny coat. All maker’s thoughts not go to wood singing but only to make next one.

Good mandolin born in big family sometimes love spread thin but still there as maker’s work hard to give all new mandolins good start with attention to good cut and glue but still suffer from family too big. Sometime just not enough time and good wood to go around.

Great mandolin born in small loving family. All attention and thought go to make best mandolin can be. Maker not care about money so much as create best mandolin ever born. Best wood, all seamless fits with just right amount of glue, all attention to make baby mandolin as one piece of wood. Then put just right amount of finish to still let wood sing. Baby even get singing lessons and tiny cuts on aperture for voice sound just right.

Hoss mandolin born when moon and stars line up with grain and glue think it wood. Hoss very different, can’t be still even sing when not played. Walk across floor and hoss start ringing, play guitar and Hoss start humming, can’t wait to be heard. Only very few Hoss’s born so when find one best buy on spot and feel very lucky.

So Grasshopper hope this help you and you put that in pipe and smoke it.

Sorry Caleb, I couldn't resist.

[sunburst]

Walk across floor and hoss start ringing, play guitar and Hoss start humming, can’t wait to be heard...

I was getting ready to mow the grass once and found that my gas can was empty. As I carried the empty gas can toward the shop door and walked by the radio, the gas can felt alive in my hand! The music on the radio made that gas can want to sing! I guess that's why my lawn mower sounds so good!

[hank]

Sounds like that gas can is a keeper. Maybe it could sit in on the next jam. Jamie found a great sounding tractor.

[majorbanjo]

I know there are well regarded makers and not so well regarded makers from a consistancy stand point......but I'll never again buy a mandolin without playing it.....

I bought an instrument from one of the well regarded makers already mentioned above......I got it used site unseen and it was bar none the worst mandolin I've ever played.....it made me want to gnaw my arm off to get away from it.....I had big money into it and even took it to a well regarded luthier and he couldn't make it sound any better......I finally got rid of it in a trade involving several other instruments.....the day it left my possession was the best day of my life......

I still have nightmares about that mandolin.......I've since seen it here on the cafe for sale.......I cringe every time I see it.....

No sir, never will I buy a mandolin without playing it again.........

[Charley wild]

No sir, never will I buy a mandolin without playing it again.........

I. like you, will never buy one without playing it. My eye (or ear) opener was playing a "major maker" mandolin priced At $3000 used and finding it absolutely average. Just plain average. It had been setup also. There are tons of mandolin for sale. $400 or $4000, I'm going to play it before I reach for the wallet!

[Nick Triesch]

This is not hard. Mandolins are either born great, good, so, so, or terrible. A big name can be poor in sound quality and a Pac Rim can have great sound. Mandolins are strange little beasts. There seems to be many more so so ones than really good ones. I guess that's why we keep writing all this stuff! Nick

[Charlieshafer]

Ah, the last few posts all ring very true. I'm not that experienced with expensive mandolins, but expensive violins, yes, thanks to a symphony-playing wife and many artists who pass through our house and concert series. There have been many "tests" done over the past few years where three or four violins are lined up, starting with a Strad, then something like an Amati, then two newer modern makers of generally-considered very high quality. Prices range from 3-4 million down to about $20,000. Then they get three professional violinists, all of whom play Strads, and conduct a blind listening test. The judges are the two musicians not playing at that time, and 2-3 "highly regarded" critics. Each musician plays all the violins, while the judges sit behind a thin curtain to disguise the violins being played. In every instance, the musicians and judges guessing are right well less than 50% of the time. That's worse than just dumb luck, which means they're into the strange realm of "psychoacoustics" where one adds one's anticipation of what they should be hearing into the mix of what they actually are hearing. Moral of the story; don't worry about the label. Play them all, and get whatever makes you smile, and for whatever reason. If it makes you drool, even better. You're the one who has to justify the price, no matter how low or high, not the rest of us out here in space. If you're not grinning when you're playing, then, ooops.

[thejamdolinplayer]

I. like you, will never buy one without playing it. My eye (or ear) opener was playing a "major maker" mandolin priced At $3000 used and finding it absolutely average. Just plain average. It had been setup also. There are tons of mandolin for sale. $400 or $4000, I'm going to play it before I reach for the wallet!

I didnt play my Collings Mt before I bought it I trusted the judgment of the mandolin store, and I couldnt have gotten a better sounding mandolin for the price... Although if you re close enough to a store who does sell the mandolin your wanting to buy, it is a good idea to play it first...

[OldSausage]

My wife always says "your banjo sounded nice" when I come upstairs after playing the mandolin - regardless of whether it was a cheap or expensive mandolin.

[Dfyngravity]

My wife always says "your banjo sounded nice" when I come upstairs after playing the mandolin - regardless of whether it was a cheap or expensive mandolin.

I'd get a new wife....no no I am just kidding:popcorn: :whistling:. But I do make sure that my girl friend knows what I play. It helps that she grew up on bluegrass though :mandosmiley:.

[OldSausage]

I'd get a new wife....no no I am just kidding:popcorn: :whistling:. But I do make sure that my girl friend knows what I play. It helps that she grew up on bluegrass though :mandosmiley:.

Oh, she knows.

[Charley wild]

Oh, she knows.

I knew that was coming. Sounds just like one of my exwives..... I don't recall which one.

[Dfyngravity]

I knew that was coming. Sounds just like one of my exwives..... I don't recall which one.

:))

[allenhopkins]

If you're trying to sell it to me, it's a good mandolin, perhaps a bit overpriced.

If I'm trying to sell it to you, it's a great mandolin -- and at the asking price, a total steal!

[Larry Simonson]

A great mandolin is one that has established a reputation amongst the best players for being GREAT. Example: Reischman's Loar. Good mandolins may aspire to greatness.

Changing the subject, a very interesting question was posed early in this thread by Farmerjones. "Do luthier's from Collings, Eastman, and Gibson know the same things?" Now that is something to ponder.

[tburcham]

Ok guys and ladies! I'm an engineer, so I'll throw an engineering-based answer to this question. When one studies engineering, most fields of engineering study Properties of Materials. This is the science of how a materials behave under various loads, tensions, vibrations, etc. So we have tables with all these properties for concrete, steel, rubber, and yes, even wood! While the study of these properties is well defined, in every case an engineer will apply a statistical distribution to the various properties to create a "bell curve" which is a statistical term that shows the most common occurrence of a property at the height of the bell and the less common values in question towards the tail of the curve...in other words if I place a weight on 100 pieces of steel that are all dimensionally the same, and measure the deflection (how much it bends), there will be a large number of the pieces that will have a deflection about the same, but there WILL be pieces that deflect more and pieces that deflect less. In an industrial setting, we might even reject pieces that deviate from the average value by more than one or two standard deviations (another statistical term I won't explain here).

While I indicated that we have values for wood, you must know that while wood behaves in similar manner to other materials, it typically has a wider spread of values, e.g., no two pieces are the same...not even if they are from the same tree....each successive cut will have different grain etc.

Ok, so you're wondering at this point what in the world is he talking about???? He's rattling on about statistics, yield strength, vibrations, etc...what does that have to do with GREAT vs. Good mandolins?

So here's the bottom line...GREAT occurs when ALL of the elements of the mandolin (primarily the top, back, and neck) work together to produce GREAT volume, GREAT tone, and GREAT playability. A great builder never starts any mandolin with a goal of it being GOOD...he (or she) selects the best woods, builds with the utmost care, etc., but at the end of the build, he (or she) will have to tune the mandolin (shaving braces, removing wood from the top, etc,) to make it perform to the ideal or as near as possible to that ideal...at that point the mandolin will be all its going to be...if the builder has corrected for as many of the interactions between top, back, and neck...and the mandolin is still just GOOD, then it is a GOOD mandolin.

Now once in a while, the various wood properties come together in a harmonious manner that exceeds even the builder expectations...all of the harmonics of the individual pieces naturally work together...the result is a GREAT mandolin!

This is why builders that use CNC (Collings and others) get consistently GOOD results....and sometimes they get GREAT results. (I'm just using Collings as an example here, so all you Collings folks don't start throwing stones...they're fantastic mandolins...and VERY consistent).

The great independent builders, that we all adore on the Cafe, have developed a feel and sense for the various pieces of wood....and how they will interact...that's why their ratio of GREAT to GOOD mandolins is value much greater than 1... but I assure you that every mandolin they make is a unique instrument...the variability in the properties of wood guarantees this!

This is just an opinion, but I would be willing to bet that when Gibson luthiers begin with a goal of creating a Gibson Master Model...and they put the utmost care into every aspect of the build, select the finest tone woods, etc., etc., but at some point at the end of that build...it will either be a Master Model or it will be rejected. I'm guessing that some they intend to be MM's don't ever receive the Gibson Master Model label...remember this is just conjecture on my part.

I'm an engineer...we try to make sense out of stuff...the above argument (treatise) is why your Weber Yellowstone and my Weber Yellowstone may be similar, but never exactly the same! We might argue about which one is GOOD or GREAT (-;

NOTE: All of the argument above would not hold for a MIX graphite mandolin. With carbon graphite, the material properties are so uniform that a VERY consistent product could be turned out with little to no tweaking. They should all sound the SAME...one could argue then as to whether that sound is GOOD or GREAT.

Hope this treatise helps everyone have a better understanding of the "ART and SCIENCE" of building a mandolin (or any musical instrument from wood).

[hank]

Good post Tim. I enjoyed Big Joe's post on the Master Model thread about keeping key tone components hand made to preserve the voice individuality of each master model. I believe that project and Charlie Derrington have helped Gibson's Luthiers take it to the next level. But Even with CNC the grain, wood density and tonal qualities will always keep things interesting and somewhat unpredictable.

[Canister]

I agree that you should play it before buying. That wasn't an option for me. I called Janet Davis and talked to Tom. He sent me one I'm happy with. If you can't play it there is an element of trust. Of course check the return policy.

[hank]

Tom Anderson introduced me to my Goldrush as well. I wasn't really even looking for another mandolin when I stopped by JD's and asked Tom what ya got to knock my socks off? Wrong question to ask if you want to sleep at night after leaving empty handed. It took a week or so to convince myself but I asked for Tom again when I returned to make her mine. Good guy even if he does play banjo.

[Rob Brown]

I recently heard about some violins being built with wood that was treated with some sort of mold or fungus. pros could not tell it from the mega expensive Strads. Maybe that would help a so-so mando.

[GRW3]

Your mandolin is good, my mandolin is great...

My mandolin is good, the one I want to buy is great...

Good picks pluck across
Great metal stings
Mood magic ensues...

Great harmony from good intentions...

Great times for good mandos...

Good time for great mandos...

I'm tired from an evening jam session with many friends. Instruments from fair to great but the common thread was the joy of music. Good times come from the soul which even the greatest instrument cannot give.

[fishtownmike]

One of the main things i have found in difference between a quality mandolin and a cheaper factory mass produced mando is the the setup. Now don't get me wrong the wood and everything else is usually a much better quality on higher priced instruments but the important things like bridge fitting and nut work are lacking in cheaper instruments. I have found these areas very rough on cheaper instruments. You will be surprised what effect on the sound this can make. I have taken cheaper mandos and fitted the bridge or even in some cases built a new one and replaced the nut with bone and made a big improvement in these instruments. Are they comparable to a high dollar mando? No! But an improvement to what they were.

[brianf]

The judgement of tone and volume qualities are usually subjective. The instrument that you play every day can sound great, most of the time, but sometimes doesn't seem to please you.
Very small differences in the setup can make a huge difference, so the differences that you notice, when trying out a bunch of them, may just be that a couple of them, even the better ones, need a good setup.

Also, each player usually adjusts his own techniques, over a period of time, to the particular instrument that he is playing. That often accounts for the improvement credited to "opening up".

Then, too, mandolins are like women, no two being exactly the same.:grin:

[Orffman]

I just did a bunch of informal research by comparing my Loar LM-520 against a bunch of different peoples nice mandolins. There were too main things. 1. the nice ones are really amazing to play. Low action and amazing feel. Everyone was different but they all played great. (Loved the Collings the most)
2. All of them had a louder, clearer, more rounded sound. They just were more alive than my budget Mando. And that makes them so much more fun to play cause the sound is great. I think it is because the wood is thinner and carved much more expertly. Best guitar I ever played was one a guy made by himself and carved the wood really thin. Sounded amazing. So I came to the conclusion that it is well worth it to spend a lot more money to get that sound. I ended getting a KM-1050 and its great! Cheaper than most good ones but has that great sound. Still want a Collings but that may never happen.

[Jim Garber]

NOTE: that this is an 11 year old thread you are replying to. Of course, no reason not to continue the discussion.

[red7flag]

11 years and still interesting. I have four instruments that were made for me by top builders, Ellis, Hester, Mowry and Nyberg. I spent time both playing examples of each builder and getting opinions of each builder, mostly from the Cafe. Each of these builders spent a lot of time talking and emailing with me to make sure they understood what I wanted and that they felt comfortable providing that. Once they started each sent me pictures during the build to help keep me In process. After receiving the instrument, the builder requested my feedback and made it clear that if not, they were willing to make it right. In all four cases, the instrument was a keeper and something special to me. In my opinion, each reaches that "great" designation. Unless a catastrophe occurs, I will never sell. All these were commissioned after a personal history of mixed results in buying and selling mandolins. Bought some that I should not have and sold some that I wish I had not. Between those experiences and a lot of great knowledge gleaned here at the Cafe, my choices have gotten much better.