joining a celtic jam

[newf playing a mando]

I am thinking about joining a celtic jam do help get to another level of playing. Has anyone else tried this approach? what was your comments?

[EdSherry]

A good Irish "session" (the term "jam" is rarely used in Irish circles) can definitely improve your playing. But there's an etiquette to most sessions that the uninitiated may not be aware of. Everybody (except rhythm players) plays the melody all the time; typically, a tune "set" will involve playing one tune through two or three times, then shift to another tune played 2-3X, and then a third tune played 2-3X. If in doubt, sit in the background playing quietly until you learn the tune.

In many areas, there are "slow sessions" (sometimes called "slow jams") for people whose playing chops are not yet up to session speed. Ask around in your area, or start one!

A useful guidebook to session etiquette is here:

http://www.amazon.com/Field-Guide-Irish-Music-Session/dp/0981759017/ref=ed_oe_p

(NFI.)

A (partial) listing of links to sessions around the world is here:

http://www.ceolas.org/ceolas.html

For events in the Ottawa area, check here:

http://www.irishmusicottawa.ca/

Have fun!

[John Flynn]

I have the "Field Guide..." linked from Amazon above. I can't recommend it. The only positive thing I can say about it is that I got a chuckle or two out of it, because I like understated sarcastic humor and the author has a knack for that.

But for learning how to work into sessions, this book was very discouraging and no help at all. It seems more intent on lampooning beginners than helping them, which seems mean-spirited. I saw no useful advice in this book for helping people actually work into sessions. The advice seems to be, "Those who can play in sessions know who they are. Everyone else should just sit out. If they try to fit in, they will be the object of ridicule." Unfortunately, I have actually seen this kind of behavior at Irish sessions, much more so than in jams/sessions for other genres. It's a shame. I think this is not in the best traditions of the Irish culture. However, I believe that it is more characteristic of Irish sessions in the US than Ireland. Other musicians I know who have gone to Ireland and played in sessions have found a much more welcoming atmosphere than this book describes.

Also, there are a lot of tunes to know, they are played at fast tempos and they can follow highly-varied patterns and rhythms that often do not readily "fall under the fingers." The various different jigs alone could be a study in themselves for people coming from other genres. My advice would be to find a good instructor in the genre and be prepared to put in some serious work.

[Eddie Sheehy]

I would suggest finding an Old Time jam that has a "slow jam". A lot of the tunes will be Irish Trad and there will be plenty of variety to build up your confidence - especially the O'Carolan tunes and waltzes.

[Rob Gerety]

I think the single most significant thing I have done to improve my playing is to get out of the house and play with other people. I say go for it - but best to find a session that is appropriate to your level and filled with friendly people and stay in the background for a while until you get a feel for it. If an irish session doesn't work just find some folks and play something together - it really doesn't matter what.

[newf playing a mando]

that is what i need , to play with more people. when My brother and myself get together and play, it feels good afterwards.

[R. Kane]

All good advice above. Let me add: work up one tune really well. Get it to faster than you ever could imagine playing it, and one day, when the session leader asks you if you would like to start a tune, pull it out a half speed. It will get up to beyond your ability by the second time through, but you'll have been initiated.

[John Flynn]

I would suggest finding an Old Time jam that has a "slow jam". A lot of the tunes will be Irish Trad and there will be plenty of variety to build up your confidence - especially the O'Carolan tunes and waltzes.
I guess it depends on where you go. I have only very rarely encountered tunes in common between OT jams and Irish sessions, and most of the time I have, they were played so differently, they might as well have been different tunes.

[Eddie Sheehy]

Here in So. Cal. we work from the fiddler's fakebook mostly but anyone is free to name a tune during the "round". You don't have to be able to play a tune to name it, you can ask the others to play it so you can hear it and get a feel for it - as slow as you like. Definitely a very friendly jam.

[JeffD]

I am thinking about joining a celtic jam do help get to another level of playing. Has anyone else tried this approach? what was your comments?

Do it do it do it do it.

It is one of the BEST things you can do to accelerate your progress. Its like adding gasoline to a fire. Playing regularly with other people, working on learning tunes in between times so you don't feel shy playing out at the next jam, having new musical friends that support your progress and give you tips.

There is NO downside. Even if it doesn't work out, the not working out will teach you a whole lot that you cannot learn playing alone.

But lets be positive.

There are many folks, more than a few on this forum, who do not live close enough to a jam to attend regularly, and would jump at an opportunity like this if they could. There are many folks whose progress is achingly slow because there isn't really any place in their life that needs music. My friend plays guitar during commercials while watching TV with his wife, on the couch. That is the only time he gets to play. He is getting better sure, but its slow going.

By playing with other people on a regular basis you are creating that space in your life, in your week, the space that needs music. The context in which playing music has a meaning, and there is a reason to get better, and people to notice it.

And it will make a huge difference.


Other than that I have no opinion.

[Paul Cowham]

I agree that playing with other people is a fantastic thing to do and you should do this..

One slight word of caution (this is just my personal experience) which is the the mandolin will be one of the quieter instruments or even the quietest in the session. This means that in the past I have played as loudly as I could in an attempt to be heard (all instruments play the same tune in an typical irish session save a small rhythm section). This has been counterproductive from a technique point of view in the past as this has made my right wrist tense...

Now this should certainly not put you off, and in the first place you will need to learn the tunes and it is probably a good thing that the mandolin is quiet but I would advise on being mindful of keeping a loose wrist as this has been an issue for me...

[Steve L]

If you're not doing this already, start listening to traditional music A LOT. I wouldn't go out of my way to find mandolin players neccessarily, and I'm not sure I would start with bands. See if you can pick any or all of these CDs: "Live at Matt Malloy's", "Live at Mona's", "Paddy in the Smoke". The 1st 2 are recordings of contemporary sessions, the last of sessions of Irish ex-pats in England in the 1960s. They are all high level sessions with very respected players, but will give you an idea of the feel and how the sets of tunes are organized.

Pay particular attention to the rhythm. If you've played and listened to American style music exclusively, there are important nuances that you may not get at first and that will really hamper your playing. Whatever you do, don't start chopping on 2 and 4 even if you think it fits and sounds good. It ruins the flow of the melodic rhythm for the other players.

Go to the session a couple of times without your instrument. See if you can befriend (ie buy beer for) some of the seemingly friendliest players. Tell them you want to start playing the music and don't know where to start and you don't want to get off on the wrong foot. They might give you a list of some sets they play, allow you to record them playing them or refer you to sources to learn them. Ask them who they listen to.

Brid Cranitch has 2 books w/CDs (Orange and Blue) of session tunes arranged in sets that are played fairly slow. The Comhaltas organization has 3 book/cds out that are much faster. If you have slow downer software that can create loops, that's not a problem and I think the Comhaltas stuff is better. You can hear some music on that organization's website www.comhaltas.ie
A lot of people seem to like MucCullough's 101 session tunes collection. It's not bad, but I think there's better stuff out there.

All this can sound daunting, but it is folk music and a lot of people come to it later in life and can participate and get better with time. If you put in some effort and attention, you can deepen your connection with music and people in ways that can literally change your life.

There are a few Irish mandolin methods out there now. They're all pretty useful and easy to come by. I know Mel Bay publishes one by John Berthoud that's pretty good. I wouldn't go for the Simon Mayer stuff just now. A brilliant player and teacher, but not really for session tunes.

Good luck. Let us know how you're getting on.

[JeffPedErp]

Try this one in Ottawa. I always go when I visit from Halifax. It's very friendly. uses music and has the tunes on the web.

http://www.siegelproductions.ca/slowjam/

[Bertram Henze]

For preparation in playing along, as usual my recommendation of the BBC virtual session (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/r2music/folk/sessions/swf/folkmenu.html). Moderate speeds, but no beer.
For learning celtic tunes from other mandolin players, there is the Song-a-Week social group, e.g. with a recently revived discussion on The Musical Priest (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/group.php?do=discuss&discussionid=484) and higher speeds...

[Jill McAuley]

There's also a more recent Mel Bay book out, with accompanying CD, it's called Mel Bay's School of Mandolin: Irish Mandolin, by Mike Gregory and Joe Carr. You can also check out the column Mike does over at www.mandolinsessions.com it's devoted to irish/celtic mandolin playing/techniques. Just scroll down on the homepage and click on the "irish/celtic" tab to get to it. Both would be good ways to learn some tunes that you may come across at sessions, as well as letting you get a feel for the differences between jigs, reels, hornpipes etc.

Cheers,
Jill

[Coffeecup]

Lots more useful information at The Session (http://www.thesession.org/)

[Rob Gerety]

The other thing I would like to say, and it might seem a little corny, but I believe that the relationship or connection between two or more musicians who are locked in solidly even for just a few moments is an amazingly powerful thing. Very intimate. Since I have started playing with other people I have come to crave those moments. Makes all the work worth it. Even though I am very much an amateur, making music has become a huge part of my life. I cannot imagine being without it and I dread the day that I cannot play anymore.

[Paul Kotapish]

NewF,

I absolutely agree that playing with other people regularly is among the best things you can do to improve your playing and your enjoyment of playing music.

I would argue that a traditional Irish session might not be the best way to accomplish that, however. There's nothing wrong with going to the session and chiming in when you can and when it's appropriate.

But there are some pretty well-established and nearly universal protocols for joining in at a session, and at the most basic level--unless it is explicitly a session for beginners--it's expected that participants have command of the tunes that they are trying to play.

I'd recommend that you start a band with a few other like-minded folks at roughly your level and have regular rehearsals. You will all bring something different to the group, and the chance to really work things through at your own pace and with frequent repetition will move you along in ways that trying to tag along at a fast-moving session will not.

One of my favorite teaching expressions is "learn a chord--start a band." It's advice I used to give every student.

I started my first group when I knew just two chords, but within weeks I had learned four or five more and had started playing leads. And having a regular practice with the same folks will help you set goals to move you forward. If you agree to play three songs at somebody's birthday party, for example, you'll have a focus for your practice time and you can really dig in an master something at your level rather than having the potentially frustrating experience of playing half-baked versions of dozens of tunes that are flying by faster than you can keep up.

If you love the Irish (Scottish, Appalachian, Breton, Quebec, whatever) tunes and want to absorb them, attend the sessions, listen to recordings, and generally breathe in the music as much as possible. But for playing with others in a constructive environment, consider starting a band.

[mikeyes]

Here is my take on Irish sessions (http://www.banjosessions.com/feb06/sessions.html). Of course it involves playing the banjo, but there is some good advice there :>

[John McGann]

"learn a chord--start a band."


Absolutely! The faster you find like minded people to play with, the faster your playing will take off. It's also a great incentive to practice, since you have something tangible to aim for (group rehearsal) and a deadline to help you focus.

Great stuff, Paul!

[EdSherry]

What Paul and Mike said. Many Irish sessions occur at "take no prisoners" speed levels, and presuppose a knowledge of the standard repertoire, that can be intimidating to beginners.

Slow sessions help in this regard. By all means seek one out (or start one!) in your vicinity.

But nothing beats finding a group of like-minded musicians at roughly the same level of interest and experience to play together.

[newf playing a mando]

some of you guys got me thinking twice about even going.

[EdSherry]

Newf -- I didn't (and don't) want to discourage anyone from attending sessions. They're the lifeblood of Irish music, tend to be very welcoming to those who are willing to learn, and generally offer great craic (Irish Gaelic for "fun, entertainment, and enjoyable conversation").

The caveats I (and others) have given largely are associated with the fact that a session is not a "jam" in the sense that people in other musical genres seem to expect. I know lots of folks who enjoy bluegrass jams or Greatful Dead-type jams or ... who feel out of place at Irish sessions (and vice versa!).

About a year ago, a guitar player kept showing up at a local Irish session expecting to "jam along" using his trusty blues and minor pentatonic licks to play along with the Irish tunes. Nothing against his playing (he was actually pretty good at what he knew), but it was a poor fit, and he finally realized it and stopped coming.

Go in knowing what to expect and with an appreciation of the difference between a session and a "jam" and you'll be fine.

[Dagger Gordon]

Newf,

Everybody's got to start somewhere if you want to go to Celtic sessions. You can't be expected to know hundreds of tunes if you're new to the genre.
So the trick might be to go for a drink with a friend and watch what happens at a session, to understand the nature of the thing. And every session will be a bit different.

[newf playing a mando]

Newf,

Everybody's got to start somewhere if you want to go to Celtic sessions. You can't be expected to know hundreds of tunes if you're new to the genre.
So the trick might be to go for a drink with a friend and watch what happens at a session, to understand the nature of the thing. And every session will be a bit different.

I think that is what I am going to do.

[John McGann]

I think that is what I am going to do.
Consider bringing a recording device too, so you can capture and learn the tunes they play in the comfort of your home. Be careful, though...don't tip your pint on the mic! :mandosmiley:

[Shelagh Moore]

...unless it is explicitly a session for beginners--it's expected that participants have command of the tunes that they are trying to play.

I've been playing at sessions (Irish, Scottish or mixed) for at least the past 30 years plus and, while I know pretty well all the "rules" of session etiquette, the above has never been my experience. The great majority of sessions I have run, or been part of, have welcomed beginners and encouraged them to join in as best they can... it's the best way to learn and this has always been part of a true session. Where there is an intolerance of learners I would say that is a session that doesn't follow usual session etiquette. Perhaps practice is different in the US to here in Europe (my experience is of sessions in Ireland, England, continental Europe and, latterly, Scotland).

So my advice to Newf is to go for it, perhaps sitting in on a session to get the feel of things the first time and perhaps practising one or two tunes to the level you feel confident to ease yourself in. Most session musicians worth a candle will welcome you.

[JeffD]

Consider bringing a recording device too, :mandosmiley:

I forgot about that. That is a real good recommendation.

The main reason is so that you don't have to try and "learn" the tunes at the jam. On first hearing a new tune, you only have to try and play along a bit and get a sense of it, free of worrying about remembering it later.

At home, in private, in your own time your own way, you can take the recording and put in the energy to really learn the tune.

The recorder allows this kind of separation of tasks, and the result is you will enjoy the jam more - always a good thing.

[JeffD]

Where there is an intolerance of learners I would say that is a session that doesn't follow usual session etiquette..

This is a true statement everywhere I have played, stateside, overseas, everywhere.

The normal jams are welcoming of beginners. Especially those with an enthusiasm to learn.

If there is an intolerance, it is for the occational beginner who thinks he or she knows it all, and brings aggressive chop chords to an Irish traditional tune or something equally inappropriate.

Everyone who has jammed has had a first jam and knows exactly what that is like.

[Rob Gerety]

This is a true statement everywhere I have played, stateside, overseas, everywhere.

The normal jams are welcoming of beginners. Especially those with an enthusiasm to learn.

If there is an intolerance, it is for the occational beginner who thinks he or she knows it all, and brings aggressive chop chords to an Irish traditional tune or something equally inappropriate.

Everyone who has jammed has had a first jam and knows exactly what that is like.

This is my experience here in my neck of the woods as well.

Another thing - talk to the folks at the session, see if there are other opportunities to play that they know of. Get a music network going. Once you dive in, the opportunities will reveal themselves and your musical life will blossom.

[Bertram Henze]

I second what Paul said about starting a band, because that's exactly what I did when I didn't want to play alone anymore. This is the sanctuary home situation.

But attending a session is more lifelike and more natural to ITM, outside the greenhouse, and is not to be missed. Of course you have to start somewhere, and nobody will be offended if you just sit there quietly, waiting for the only tune you can play; sitting quietly is a common phenomenon in sessions, and even old regulars do that now and then. After all, there are approx. 4000 tunes available, and that's only the traditional ones, additional new ones are created every day - nobody can know them all.

Of course, there are groups of people with a common repertoire, and you easily get the feeling of being excluded from a close circle of friends; this impression is misleading, because these people are held together by knowledge of tunes, not by personal preference of each other. Learn some of their tunes, and you're one of them automatically, ready to fly with the pack.

Oh, and never forget: your best friend in a session is your instrument.

[JeffD]

I am skeptical about starting a band with others "at your level", or even the concept of a "slow jam" for newbies.

What you gain in comfort you lose in learning opportunity and excitement.

I think there is great value in sitting with and trying to play with musicians who are better and more experienced than me. Its less comfortable, perhaps less "nurturing", but its the real deal. And when I get a tune down and the group notices, there is no bigger thrill. Its addicting.

I have seen the proliferation of "slow jams" in the last many years, and I really have mixed feelings about them. I like to think of music as having no real front door, you jump in and swim out to one of the many edges and work it from there.

At home, alone or with friends, woodshedding, or with an instructor, or a group instruction, that is the time for front doors and gradual learning.

There are many who have specific pedegogical knowledge to know what is best, so take my opinion as uninformed. I know only for myself, in music, and in life, I have wasted way too much time looking for a front door instead of diving in and seeing where it takes me.

[Rob Gerety]

With all due respect Jeff I disagree about the slow jam question. People are different. Your approach is certainly fine and best for many people, but others will blossom starting out in a slow jam. At least that is my experience.

[JeffD]

With all due respect Jeff I disagree about the slow jam question. People are different. Your approach is certainly fine and best for many people, but others will blossom starting out in a slow jam. At least that is my experience.

I am open to that. Everyone learns differently. I have seen lots of folks enjoy a slow jam, which is a good thing too. And certainly a slow jam is better than no jam.

But in my experience so many of the folks I have seen at the slow jam are still at the slow jam years after year after year, or have given up entirely. I wonder about the slow jam's effectiveness as a stepping stone.

[allenhopkins]

1] My experience with Celtic seisuns here in the Rochester area is that they are quite welcoming of beginners, but also that it's expected that "newbies" will respect the established players, not try to jump into "lead" roles (starting tunes, etc.) until they have a grasp of the "vibe" of the group, and play at a volume level that doesn't cause disruption.

2] Two of the recurrent issues are bodhran players (and other hand precussion), and vocalists. A good percussionist can be an asset to any seisun, but many, unfortunately, aren't. Two bodhran players who can't agree on the figures and/or style of playing, can throw everybody off. And there are often people who want to break up the steady stream of instrumentals with a song. If it's the right song by the right person, it's welcome. If not, it isn't.

3] I have also noted that rhythm guitar styles have shifted somewhat, from the 1st-position-chord approach of years ago, to a more sophisticated closed-chord, almost "sock" rhythm, with many passing tones and some string dampening, rather than the open-string "ring" of the past. Some nice guitar work is heard, but when you have some playing open chords, almost as they would in an old-timey jam, and others playing the newer style, it doesn't always work.

4] RE: slow jams -- Jeff is right in that some players never graduate from the "slow jam" phase, but I think that's OK. If they enjoy playing dance tunes at half speed, at least they're playing and getting something out of the experience. Others will use the slow-speed opportunities to acquire skills and repertoire, and then move on to "playing with the big boys/girls." IMHO, it's nice to have a place for those who, after years of playing, still can't manage to keep up with the faster pace and more intricate repertoire. I have seen some of these people sitting forlorn on the edges of a seisun, throwing in a note here and there, but obviously feeling left out. In a slow jam, they can participate at the same level as others, and feel like they're accomplishing something.

5] Harmonies and counter-melodies: I usually bring one or more lower-pitched mandolin-family instruments to seisuns (mandola, octave mandolin, mandocello), and try to fit them in. As stated above, the SOP at these events is for fiddles, flutes, whistles, hammered dulcimers, squeezeboxes etc. to play the melody in unison (or near-unison, depending on variants and skill levels), over a bed of rhythm (usually guitar) and perhaps percussion. I have fun trying to fit in harmonies and counter-melodies below the melody. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes I get a gentle hint that everyone doesn't think it appropriate. Sensitivity to the tastes of others is a vital ingredient in seisun participation -- but I'm afraid I don't always have as much of it as I should. Perhaps I should get empathy lessons from Justice Sotomayor, or something like them!

[Rob Gerety]

On slow jams - I do agree that most people will progress faster if they are playing with people that are equal or even better a bit more advanced so that they are pushed along and motivated and so that they get good examples to follow. So, I wouldn't want to be playing in a situation where everyone involved is below my own level. I do agree that there is some danger in that.

I agree Allen that sensitivity to the taste of others is very important and if you have the right attitude you are more likely to be accepted as part of the group. Heck, I sometimes start hearing my own playing and begin thinking it sounds like junk myself. I usually just stop playing when that happens.

[Steve L]

I think the ideal is to play with people who are slightly better than you are. Playing with people who are much better than you are can be discouraging to all but the most determined. Slow sessions can serve as a stepping stone for those who are willing and able to advance. Some people just don't seem to have the aptitude, willingness, or just the time to get beyond a certain point. Ongoing slow sessions are great for them, but can become a quagmire for those who are a bit more ambitious. At a certain point, you may be better off playing with recordings than slow sessions until you can gain a toehold at session speeds.

At most of the sessions I've been to, we all try to encourage newer players and if they start a tune, we try to keep the tempo wherever they put it. I do find it frustrating sometimes when people start tunes they can't actually play and it isn't one most of the group is really familiar with.

[JeffD]

I do find it frustrating sometimes when people start tunes they can't actually play and it isn't one most of the group is really familiar with.

Aye, but in the grand scheme of things I think the newbie that does this learns the most from it. The person learns to start tunes they can play, and how to determine when and where it is appropriate to try out a new tune others may not know, and how to deal with the sitation when they have screwed it up. All things that really can't be learned any other way.


Sometimes you have to learn where the bumpers are by banging into them.

[Eddie Sheehy]

We have a two-hour session with the first 45 minutes being the official Slow-Jam and the rest is normal speed. In practise, anyone can request a tune be played more slowly at any time, and when it's the person's "turn" they can set the tempo or request someone else to lead...