View Full Version : Tenor banjo questions.
Hello!
I've been playing mandolin for a while and I'm thinking of adding tenor banjo to my list of musical instruments (I also play bouzouki at my friend's place sometimes, and I used to play a sucky mandola, so I have tried out both of the common tunings on other instruments.. GDAE is too low for me).
Now, I know they're mostly tuned in CGDA or GDAE, which leads to question #1:
1. I need very different string gauges for this, right? It's a long step.
I'm not gonna play in GDAE, I'm gonna play in CGDA, I'm just wondering.
Question number two:
2. How can I tell what tuning the tenor banjo I'm buying is in without a tuner (not a good enough ear for that). CGDA is the standard, right?
Because I wouldn't want to buy a GDAE Tenor and realize that I instantly have to get another set of strings.
also, question number three:
3. Mostly gonna use it for chords, but is bad intonation down the neck a common issue with tenor banjos?
I would very much appreciate answers. Thank you very much!
Also, I saw a youtube video of someone removing the resonator chamber (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1ZIzQ1xucE).
Can this be done with all/most banjos or only on certain kinds? (because open back is cooler and MUCH lighter, but seem a lot more rare around here).
I guess I should be getting a compensated bridge.. although, tuning off by 10cents wont do that much damage, but anything beyond it would suck.
All I need is ok intonation until the 7:th fret.
SincereCorgi
Sep-22-2009, 1:51pm
2. How can I tell what tuning the tenor banjo I'm buying is in without a tuner (not a good enough ear for that). CGDA is the standard, right?
Because I wouldn't want to buy a GDAE Tenor and realize that I instantly have to get another set of strings.
Your ear is probably good enough, but you should just ask the person you're buying from. You might need to change the nut if you're changing a banjo from GDAE to CGDA. Also, I've noticed that some very good guitar shops tune their tenor banjos on the floor to DGBE (Chicago tuning, like the top of a guitar), presumably in order to entice guitar customers.
You can take the resonators off pretty much every banjo (makes it easier to change the head), but that doesn't mean they're all really set up to play comfortably like that. If convertibility is a big deal for you, make sure you ask.
Tenor banjos should be okay down the neck, since that's where a lot of jazz banjo chords are played.
I got a Deering Goodtime Special tenorwith a few niceties that does the job for a dwcwnt price, but now that I'm older and wiser I'd suggest buying used.
-Trevor
Thank you.
I think most beginner tenor banjos have non-compensated bridges. Could that be an issue?
because the only other instrument i had with a non-compensated bridge (mandola) had the most horrible intonation ever... and it wasn't even fixable with that bridge (could get two of the strings intonated at the same time, no more). I ended up with the most horribly intonated A-string ever.
Though, it was by a romanian low-budget instrument company by the name Hora (which is Swedish for whore).
catmandu2
Sep-22-2009, 2:23pm
Blip, banjo bridges are totally adjustable in that you place them wherever they sound best to you. You'll learn how to do this (comparing harmonic notes to fretted notes) if you don't already do this with your mandos or adjustable bridges on other instruments such as electric guitars and basses. As an aside, I'm surprised how many used mandos, dolas, and CBOMs I've acquired had incorrect bridge postions, as evidenced by a preserved, unfaded mark left by the bridge after it's been repositioned. Sometimes, I think someone sold their instrument being dissatisfied with its intonation, which was easily correctable all along..
Intonation issues on banjos are typically more considerable than other fretted instruments due to its vellum head.
Blip, banjo bridges are totally adjustable in that you place them wherever they sound best to you. You'll learn how to do this (comparing harmonic notes to fretted notes) if you don't already do this with your mandos. Intonation issues on banjos are typically more considerable than other fretted instruments due to its vellum head.
I know they're adjustable.. but beginner banjo bridges are still straight non-compensated.
But well, as long as it is not heavily noticeable and the chords sound okay, I'm happy.
KanMando
Sep-22-2009, 2:39pm
In general, the short scale, 17 fret, "Irish" tenor banjos are tuned GDAE. The longer scale, 19 fret tenor banjos are tuned CGDA. Of course there are exceptions to this, i.e., short scale banjos can be tuned to DAEB.
D'Addario makes strings sets for both Irish and standard tenor banjos.
Bob
Jill McAuley
Sep-22-2009, 3:59pm
Most tenor banjo bridges I've seen are non-compensated, be they beginner or professional level.
Cheers,
Jill
catmandu2
Sep-22-2009, 6:30pm
I know they're adjustable.. but beginner banjo bridges are still straight non-compensated.
I've seen some of Mike Seeger's banjos with devices similar to violin fine tuners on the string between the bridge and tailpiece. I'm sure this is helpful for banjos with friction tuners. Still, as much as tuning can be problemmatic with banjos, I haven't felt the need to try anything like this, myself. But for a person who finds it necessary, there are methods.
So I guess I just have to accept that there'll be some intonation issues.
I guess they wont be extremely noticeable at least. I will play the banjo together with a few other people, so I would prefer being in tune. But then again, one of them plays a bouzouki with a straight bridge, it's not that intonated, but it still sounds fine.
So I guess I just have to accept that there'll be some intonation issues.
.
I don't know about that.
In my experience there is nothing inherently weak or wrong with the tenor banjo design that would lead me to believe that more of them have trouble than other instrumens. More tenor banjo players play up the neck than guitarists do, so they care about the sound up the neck.
catmandu2
Sep-23-2009, 10:55am
Blip, I'm not sure I understand your concern here. A given banjo that has been constructed properly and has decent tuners will generally present no more intonation issues for you than your mando.
Blip, I'm not sure I understand your concern here. A given banjo that has been constructed properly and has decent tuners will generally present no more intonation issues for you than your mando.
When you put it that way. Thanks, now I get it.
Off to buy a 19 fret "long scale" tenor banjo soon then.
also tuned up my friend's bouzouki now (he left it at my place) it seems like he has fixed the intonation issues.. It's still the same uncompensated bridge, but now the intonation is only off about 0-5cents at the 12:th fret.
catmandu2
Sep-23-2009, 11:11am
Instrument intonation is a sonic puzzle that one can learn to solve well through mechanical manipulation. There are many factors influencing intonation: some factors are easily adjusted, others not. Some instruments are easy to obtain dead-one intonation, others--even some expensive ones--not. With experience, you can learn to obtain the best result on a given instrument.
Glad to hear you're getting a banjo. The extra factor you'll be dealing with is its vellum head (which generally fluctuates more than the wood top on your mando, but when set-up properly with a plastic head, fluctuations are minimal) which consequently affects all the other intonation factors except that which you cannot adjust: fret placement. But this is generally acceptable on most instruments. After you acquire your banjo and if you have questions, we can help answer them for you. The really nice thing about a banjo is its capacity to be manipulated and modified.
allenhopkins
Sep-23-2009, 9:18pm
Elderly Instruments says Sampson tenor banjo bridges (http://www.elderly.com/accessories/names/sampson-tenor-banjo-bridge--STB311-KOA.htm) are compensated. Spending $30 on a banjo bridge may be higher than one cares to go...
mandroid
Sep-23-2009, 10:56pm
a geared set of tuners will help , right angled ones would have a lower ratio , planetary ones are 4:1.
The reference to fine tuners in #10 would make sense with friction tuners , for the same reason they do on Violins, close is all you can hope for, then the tailpiece mounted fine tuners dial in the last cents.
Bernie Daniel
Sep-24-2009, 5:23am
In addition, be prepared in advance for a learning curve on both the left and right hand.
There just seems to be (probably is) a lot more "give" to the strings on a tenor banjo than a mandolin -- not surprising because mando strings are under a lot of tension and you have to move two of them at once.
I found that going from the mandolin to the tenor guitar was pretty easy -- I merely had to adjust the stretch on my left hand -- the small finger can only reasonably reach the 5th fret on the tenors instead of the 7th on the mandolin. But you adjust to that in a few days. But for the right hand picking a tenor guitar is no different than a regular 6 string guitar.
On the tenor banjo however there is also a learning curve for the right hand and it was pretty steep. Be perpared to use a very thin pick on the banjo -- that help me a lot.
Jill gave a bunch of advice that you might well read in the string I started a few weeks ago entitled "tenor guitar vs. tenor banjo".
Good Luck.
first string
Sep-24-2009, 11:59am
In general, the short scale, 17 fret, "Irish" tenor banjos are tuned GDAE. The longer scale, 19 fret tenor banjos are tuned CGDA. Of course there are exceptions to this, i.e., short scale banjos can be tuned to DAEB.
D'Addario makes strings sets for both Irish and standard tenor banjos.
Bob
My understanding is that it is pretty much the opposite. Most Irish players I have talked to preffer the 19 fret... GDAE sounds better with a longer scale. CGDA probably wouldn't require as long a neck to sound good, but I don't personally know anyone who plays tenor it that (original) tuning, so I can't really speak to that.
allenhopkins
Sep-24-2009, 10:57pm
...but I don't personally know anyone who plays tenor it that (original) tuning...
I do. It's just the same as playing mandola. I use a capo quite a bit. I have a 17-fret Bacon Orchestra model from 1910's or '20's. I find the shorter neck makes it more mandolin-like as far as fingering and single-string work are concerned.
Treblemaker
Dec-06-2009, 1:06pm
I recently aquired a 1915 Orpheum #1 Irish Tenor Banjo (GDAE) and am having a blast with it!
It's in minty shape and cost me $400 plus I upgraded to Waverly Geared Tuners from the spent and ancient friction units that were on there when purchased. It's soooo much fun to play all the fiddle tunes I know on this cause it has a kind of low-down funkiness kind of reminiscent of John Hartford's banjo tone.
I'll be playing it at a gig today in Point Reyes, CA alongside my Smart F5 and Martin HD-28...
Have a GDAE - all!
Treblemaker
Dec-06-2009, 1:07pm
PS - The Orpheum is a 17 fretter...
Jill McAuley
Dec-06-2009, 1:32pm
Nice one, Ted, good score there!
Cheers,
Jill
bigbike
Feb-02-2010, 2:50am
As a long time bg. banjo player, I would say this, I for one have never seen a compensated tenor bridge. The general consencous is that they are not needed. You may need one on a 5 string because of the way the neck is laid out and the possiblilty of the G string being sharp, when the others are in tune. But on a 4 string neck that is not an issue.
I have a tenor 19 fretter that I am learning to play. Get yourself the best tenor that you can afford and enjoy. As with all instuments, setup is crucial to it being enjoyable or a chore to play. There are plenty of deals on mid level tenors on ebay. The one that I have is a Slingerland made, but carries the SS STewart name on it. It is a rather plain jane made in the late 20's to early 30's but after changing the old friction tuners out, it is a nice instrument, and hold tune well. I paid less than $75 for it plus the cost of the new tuners about another $45. So for less than $150 I have a nice little 'jo.