Ornament or modality?

[Erik Gran]

Tonight I found a lead sheet for "Bonaparte Crossing the Rhine" (http://www.8notes.com/scores/9429.asp) and started learning the melody:

http://www.8notes.com/oneills/gif/2024.gif

Now, from the score I figure that this tune is in a minor mode, probably A dorian??

If that's the case, the seventh degree of the scale is a major seventh, i.e. there should be a half step to the tonic (here: G# to A), and in the ascending phrases leading to the A, that's the case. However when descending from A, the dominant seventh is used, and this is consistent every time. It sounds right, it sounds good, and I should probably be content with that.

Still I'm curious if this has some name and explanation in music theory. Does the tonality change from A dorian to A aeolian, or is it wrong to use modes to analyze this?

Hopefully some educated people can inform a simple dairy farmer from the middle of nowhere in Norway!! ;):confused::mandosmiley:

[farmerjones]

Sorry, i couldn't resist. If it sounds like this, it's not quite right. ;)
WSRf82zpFB8

I've heard some people refer to it as G minor or G modal minor, maybe like Campbell's Farewell to Redgap. I know for sure that's G minor. Just G & A.

[Rob Gerety]

Very nice. Whatever key. Made my evening.

[Bruce Clausen]

Great playing farmerjones-- that is really a haunting sound!

Erik, the Dorian form of A minor is the one with F# and G natural. Your tune seems to be in that mode, but substitutes G# when the line rises up to A. So you might think of the tune as in A Dorian, but with an ornamental G# here and there. Don't know if this helps at all.

BC

[Erik Gran]

Farmerjones, nicely done! Sounds quite right to me!

Bruce, I think your explanation is very helpful. It's easy to get too focused on the theory, at least for me, and what notes are "right".

Since the G# only is used in a slur, (I do it as a double hammer-on, or at least try to make the notes sound ...) it's clearly functioning as a passing note, leading into the A, and thus giving that (the root) note extra emphasis. I've noticed that this technique often works in modal tunes, when playing runs leading into the root, it sounds better to lead into the root from a half step below than from a whole step, although the latter technically is the diatonic note (in the scale).

Too much talk I guess, I'd probably spend my time better practicing those hammer-ons ... :mandosmiley:

[Rob Gerety]

Well, I agree it is easy to get overly concerned with theory. Still, although I know a few things - and I think I understand modes in a rudimentary way - I have never understood what everyone means when they refer to a tune as "modal". Isn't every tune written in one mode or another? Isn't it just a question of which degree of the major scale is the tonal center of the tune? What am I missing here?

By the way, thinking of that G# as a passing tone makes a lot of sense to me too.

[farmerjones]

There's a prevalence of the Ionian mode/scale in some areas. Maybe blame Tin-pan alley? Anything else is considered modal by some. I've heard jammers refer to tunes that change keys as modal too.

I don't know if this will muddy the water or not:

http://www.aebersold.com/FQ/15_nomenclature.pdf

BTW Thanks so much for all the kind words.

FJ

[bonny]

Well, I agree it is easy to get overly concerned with theory. Still, although I know a few things - and I think I understand modes in a rudimentary way - I have never understood what everyone means when they refer to a tune as "modal". Isn't every tune written in one mode or another? Isn't it just a question of which degree of the major scale is the tonal center of the tune? What am I missing here?


I've practiced modes a lot and think it's a good way of making friends with a scale and it's harmony. When playing tunes with more complex chord changes or changing tonal centers I find it really cumbersome to think in modes....actually when playing I find it cumbersome period. It implies things like a II chord in the key of A will be a B minor7 chord. Often it will be but not always. If it's a 7th chord instead and you try to impose modes it hurts your brain unnecessarily as now you have a flat 5 that's outside the mode to justify. Try to impose modes over a traditional blues and it's gonna sound hokey. It won't justify the I and IV being 7th chords.

I'm certainly not a great theoretician but for the western pop music I mostly play (jazz, rock R&B, country etc.) I've found it much easier to think about harmony in terms of chords. That said there are a lot of world folk traditions and things like the Miles Davis "So What" era jazz that are modal and need to be viewed that way to sound authentic. Trying to understand how the composer was thinking is useful. To hear the difference between modal and not modal listen to So What compared to John Coltrane playing Giant Steps. Even if you don't play or even especially like jazz you'll hear the difference between a tune with a static tone center where modes work well and one where it changes constantly where they don't.

As others have said in the case of this tune from the OP looking a the G# as a grace note is probably what the composer had in mind.

[bobby bill]

Still I'm curious if this has some name and explanation in music theory. Does the tonality change from A dorian to A aeolian, or is it wrong to use modes to analyze this?


Not wrong at all. The consistent major sixth gives it a dorian feel, but it also looks a lot like the melodic minor. There are three common minor scales. (1) The natural minor, which is also the aeolian mode and A-A on the white keys. (2) The harmonic minor has the major seventh or leading tone (necessary for your dominant V7 chord) which gives you a three half-step jump (or augmented second) between the minor sixth and major seventh step of the scale. (3) Then there is the melodic minor which is different ascending and descending. On the way up it has the major sixth and seventh (as does your music). On the way down the sixth and seventh are lowered and therefore you are back to the natural minor on the way down. This is also essentially what your piece does except that there is no sixth on the descending lines.

Hope this helps.

[Rob Gerety]

Ok, but in the typical Celtic jam situation I'll be backing up melody players on guitar and a new tune will start - I'll ask "What key is it in?" - the response will come back "Its a modal tune". I shrug my shoulder with no idea what the heck it means to be a "modal" tune. I still don't understand the term. Sometimes someone will give me an explanation but it never makes any sense to me. I'm never sure if I know more than they do - or if they know more than I do. But the bottom line is - I don't get it.

[bobby bill]

But the bottom line is - I don't get it.
Don't feel bad. They are not giving you much to get. Saying something is modal is about as helpful as saying something is diatonic. They could at least tell you the tonal center (it's a modal tune in A) and get bonus points for actually telling you what mode. I am not that familiar with Celtic music but my guess is there are only a couple or three modes that would be likely suspects.

[Erik Gran]

In Celtic music (and bluegrass) I've been told that the term "modal" normally means playing the flatted seventh, and in case of modal minor also the flatted third. In the terminology of modes this corresponds to the Mixolydian and the Dorian mode.

Now for the chords in such tunes, you will in the case use the bVII chord, in A that would be a G chord, tunes like Salt Creek, Old Joe Clark and Red Haired Boy are examples of tunes in this (Mixolydian) mode.

In a minor modal tune, you use the minor i chord and the bVII, for example Am and G. those chords are the only you need to comp Bonaparte Crossing the Rhine, and I believe that's a typical example.

There's a certain feel of that harmonic move to the bVII chord that is the signature of a "modal" tune to me...

... and if you learn to reckognize that feel and sound, you've pretty much caught the essence of the mysterious "modal" tunes, IMHO ;):mandosmiley:

[groveland]

In Celtic music (and bluegrass) I've been told that the term "modal" normally means playing the flatted seventh, and in case of modal minor also the flatted third. In the terminology of modes this corresponds to the Mixolydian and the Dorian mode.

Now for the chords in such tunes, you will in the case use the bVII chord, in A that would be a G chord, tunes like Salt Creek, Old Joe Clark and Red Haired Boy are examples of tunes in this (Mixolydian) mode.

In a minor modal tune, you use the minor i chord and the bVII, for example Am and G. those chords are the only you need to comp Bonaparte Crossing the Rhine, and I believe that's a typical example.

There's a certain feel of that harmonic move to the bVII chord that is the signature of a "modal" tune to me...

... and if you learn to reckognize that feel and sound, you've pretty much caught the essence of the mysterious "modal" tunes, IMHO ;):mandosmiley:

The term "modal" finds a more loose application in Irish trad and roots genres than in other contexts. In Classical and Jazz conversations it has a very specific meaning: Ionian, dorian, phrygian, etc., or the modes of melodic minor, or harmoinic minor...

I referenced this difference in usage of the term in a thread a couple years ago (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29622&highlight=modal), and it seemed to take a good long while for everyone to get on the same page... Seems we had the classical/jazz understanding of the term vs. the colloquialism. Finally, in the last post, John McGann served very well as a mediator, having had an appreciation from both perspectives.

I would say the tune is A natural minor and A (ascending) melodic minor, both.

[Rob Gerety]

It blew my mind when I realized that key changes are common in all sorts of music.

[ApK]

I have never understood what everyone means when they refer to a tune as "modal". Isn't every tune written in one mode or another? Isn't it just a question of which degree of the major scale is the tonal center of the tune? What am I missing here?

As 'mode' can be defined as merely a synonym for "scale," yes, you are absolutely correct, but we tend to use 'mode' most often to refer to the OTHER modes besides Ionian (major) and Aeolian (minor).
So I agree with bobby, saying a tune is "modal" would be akin to saying "it's not a simple major or minor scale, so just figure it out."

I'll take Erin's word that in some settings the term has some specific understood meanings, though it seems to me they could have come up with some less ambiguous term!

I also note that there are guitar tunings referred to as modal, like D-Modal, DADGAD, and some people (Neil Young?) refer to DADGBD as D-Modal as well.

I can only imagine that it got that name because it's not an open major or minor chord so it might serve other modes well. I don't know.

ApK

[bonny]

Don't feel bad. They are not giving you much to get.

But maybe new questions are being provoked. If someone says diatonic and you don't know what that is and you ask and are told then you know.
See how that works?

[ApK]

But maybe new questions are being provoked. If someone says diatonic and you don't know what that is and you ask and are told then you know.
See how that works?

The hypothetical was: We know what diatonic means. We know it's not an appropriate answer to 'What key is it in?'
If they didn't give you an accurate and informative answer to your first question, why would you think they'd give you one to your second?

But in the case of modal specifically , yeah, it certainly makes sense to ask "what do you mean by that" since there seems be some agreed upon meanings in certain situations.

Of course, it may also help to perhaps take the question to a wider audience who may have various experiences and a broader view of the meaning, which is exactly what's going on in this thread!

ApK

[bonny]

Of course, it may also help to perhaps take the question to a wider audience who may have various experiences and a broader view of the meaning, which is exactly what going on in this thread!


And it's not just the OP who is being informed in these threads either. I was completely unaware of how Celtic music used the term modal....had no idea that modal meant anything other than "modes" derived from scales like major, harmonic or melodic minor etc.

[Roger Kunkel]

I think it's a good example of the use of the melodic minor. The 6th and 7th tones are raised when approaching the tonic.

[jc2]

I think also given the microtonal nature of Irish traditional music the way it's written might be an approximation of a note that's "in there somewhere" for which there isn't a written equivalent. That's one of the reasons the purists say you can't learn from the written music. There's absolutely no way to write it right. Melodically or rythymically.