First Mandocello

[bluesmandolinman]

Hello
I bought a Gibson K-2 Mandocello and soon noticed that I have difficulties to transmit what I would play on Mandolin or Mandola due to the size of the instrument.

What I don´t like at all are chords on the Mandocello. Open G Chord on Mandolin and Mandola is just great but on Mandocello .... no thanks.

But I love the deep voice for single notes. But what should I play ? I started with walking boogie blues bass lines which is GREAT ! I also like tremolo with that monster growl.

But what else ? I would like to get your comments regarding non-classical music stuff playable on the Mandocello. Any books/CD available ? I am not limited to a special style...but please no classic.

Thanks,René

[Eugene]

Why no classical?

[Jim Garber]

Too bad about the prohibition on classical. The Bach solo pieces are approachable and IMHO some are quite similar to some bluegrass tunes and will certainly improve your chops. Bear in mind that regardless of the genre you play, the fingering has to be different than a mandolin or even a mandola.

I played one in one band I was in and alternated between std bass lines and countermelodies.

If you eliminate classical methods, tho, I think you are on your own as far as learning the instrument.

Jim

[Dolamon]

I'd vote for the Bach Cello work along with Jim and Eugene. It may sound like a trite idea on an "old fashioned" composer ... This guy wrote it all and did it well. There is another route for both learning the instrument in a different mode. Jazz Fiddle Wizard (http://www.jazzfiddlewizard.com/) has several books which explore the Jazz idion for Fiddle, Viola and Cello. These are terrific introductions to the rhythmic possibilities and probabilities and ... they come in a professional form or "Junior" version - which is the same but doesn't dwell too long on theory.

Elderly (http://www.elderly.com/books/items/02-20186BCD.htm) stocks the whole series but ... this one is for Fazz Jiddle so you can get an idea on what is offered. These come with a CD so you can hear what it's supposed to sound like (as does the Cello version). I personally found that in playing any of the big instruments, going to a Bass instruction book will keep you on the right track ... Chords - maybe double stops ... single notes do sound best however on an M/Cello, Big Bouzouki or long scale O/M. For a revelation ... try restringing your Gibson as a heavy strung O/M (GDAe) and see how that sounds to you.

The only rules for an M/Cello are the ones you create for yourself. To my knowledge, the MandoPolice have a hands off policy with the big instruments ... (and we're all grateful for that little lapse in Homeland Security).

[Eugene]

...Or for a little less trite and old fashioned (although one could argue Bach should never be considered trite), check out the Goichberg studies (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/strings/searchdb.cgi?uid=default&view_records=1&keyword=PSE+026). Unless you acitively pursue the classical stuff, I'm just not aware of much formal didactic literature for mando-cello. Fear not, classical is groovy too.

[Jim Garber]

To add to all this...

There were some methods done in the old days. Sol Goichberg (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/strings/searchdb.cgi?uid=default&view_records=1&keyword=Goichberg) did one book of studies for the m'cello. Once again the bent is classical and the mode is standard notation. However, if it is anything like the 35 Progressive Etudes for Mandolin there are some pleasant melodies.

The only other old methods I know about were written in what was called Universal Notation which was some strange way designed to allow mandolin players to read other clefs without having to learn the new clef or the proper strings. I believe that the method by Bickford was written that way.

So, bluesmandolinman, what is the story about the aversion to classical?
Jim

[Jim Garber]

Hah! Eugene and I made the same recommendation simultaneously.

Are we talking to ourselves here BTW?

Jim

I didn't ask the original question but was happy to see the responses. #

Thank you for the recommendations.

[Eugene]

Are we talking to ourselves here BTW?
Aren't we always (well, other than Tim)?

[vkioulaphides]

Aha! NOW I know the "reason behind it all"! Semi-deranged New Yorker, long accustomed to talking to self, takes up mandolin, finds kindred spirits. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

As materials —not specifically didactic— that should work well on mandocello, I would recommend Vivaldi's set of 6 Sonatas for (violon)cello; ditto on the lovely 6 others by Benedetto Marcello. While on a far lower lever of genius than that of the great J.S., these have many, many merits:

A. You get to play them with a keyboardist friend;

B. The are veritable encyclopedias of figuration for the instrument, and

C. They have a wealth of singable, memorable tunes.

Not to mention that they are far less taxing on the fingers than the wondeful —but relentless—#unaccompanied Suites of Bach...

[Eugene]

Poor guy. He comes here specifically asking for no classical recommendations...and gets nothing but!

[vkioulaphides]

Reminds me of a friend I toured Italy with, who was (alas, alas) allergic to durum wheat/semolina, olive-oil, AND tomatoes...

Is the mandocello considered a "standard instrument" anywhere other than classical? #You could play any genre on one but won't it be viewed as a novelty or an abomination anywhere else?

By "standard", I meant that there is music written specifically for it or its tonal twin (cello).

[vkioulaphides]

Well, Tim... mandocello is hardly "standard", even in the classical field. I have had first-hand experience in this: Last spring, I wrote a large-scale work for orchestra of picked/plucked instruments, incorporating mandocello as the principal bass instrument; no problem for the group that commissioned the piece in the first place, as they had stipulated the instrumentation in advance.

In the meanwhile, several German orchestras asked to take a look at the score. No-go, though; the Germans do not use the instrument, relying instead on a far more common double-bass to carry the bottom line. In fact, I am told that the mandocello (routinely called mandoLONcello in Europe) is somewhat standard only in Italy, the Netherlands, and Japan. In the U.S., the respective instrument would be a mandobass of some sort.

Beyond that, the mando(lon)cello is used commonly in the so called quartetto classico format, i.e. the direct equivalent of the (bowed) string quartet: two mandolins, mandola, mandocello, vis a vis two violins, viola, and (violon)cello. Naturally, this instrumentation has its respective repertoire.

Now, whether the use of this lovely instrument would be viewed as a "novelty" (something perhaps positive) or an "abomination" (clearly something negative)... who knows? I think that, if one plays it well, it should make a favorable impression. I, for one, do like the sound.

[Eugene]

Of course, the mandoloncello (here typically given the hyphenated name of mando-cello) was standard to the plucked orchestras that were immensely popular from ca. 1890-1915. American players often left the low C single strung.

When I wrote "abomination" I was thinking of the bluegrass police. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I let my curiosity override my fiscal judgement and now have to figure out what to do with an octave mandolin (610 mm scale) that is currently tuned CGDA. #I've found that by putting a capo on the 7th fret I can then play it like an octave without the long stretches but my long term goal is to learn some actual cello/mandocello stuff - hence my appreciation for this thread.

[vkioulaphides]

Ah, nothing like common ground!

Tim, the mandoloncelli coming out of the Calace shop to this day have a 61 cm. scale, just like the instrument you describe. And, of course, as you have it tuned to CGDA, well... it IS a mandoloncello! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Naturally, you need to treat is as such, i.e. as a true, bass instrument and not as a mid-range one, such as the OM.

Eugene touched on another true and valuable point: The few mandoloncelli I have ever played raised exactly this curiosity, namely "would this not work better with a single-strung low C?"

In search of mandocello-ish writing, well... look up some of Haydn's string quartets (i.e. the cello part); that should give you a good, ballpark idea of what was done customarily with the bass line of that period. Beyond that, the future is anyone's call...

[steve V. johnson]

Of course, the mandoloncello (here typically given the hyphenated name of mando-cello) was standard to the plucked orchestras that were immensely popular from ca. 1890-1915. #American players often left the low C single strung.
I always wondered what the mandocello did in these orchestras and what the repertoire of these organizations consisted of...

Do you folks know what they played? Was it all formal European material?

It seems like some ragtime and some American popular musics from that period might be fun on a mandocello...

Thanks,

stv

[Jim Garber]

I always wondered what the mandocello did in these orchestras and what the repertoire of these organizations consisted of...

Do you folks know what they played? #Was it all formal European material?

It seems like some ragtime and some American popular musics from that period might be fun on a mandocello.
All of the above...

To answeryour basic question: the m'cello plays the cello parts, sometimes doubles the bass and sometimes steps out and plays countermelodies or even solos.

For some examples check out the Nashville Mandolin Ensemble (http://www.soundartrecordings.com/nme.shtml) recordings. All the Rage has sdome older turn-of-the-last-cenury rags and the like. Bach, Beatles, Bluegrass has more contemporary treatments.

There are also quite a few other contemporary orchestras. Check out Alex Timmerman's Het Consort (http://www.mandolineorkest.nl/) from the Netherlands. Their playing is top notch.

There are quite a few American groups listed here (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cmsa/groups/index.htm).

Jim

[bluesmandolinman]

Wow so many responses !

Thanks everybody for the recommendations and opinions .
Don´t get me wrong - I have no problem with classical music !
There are 2 reasons why I asked for non-classical instruction material :

1. There are plenty of music stuff for classic violoncello which can be transferred to mandocello ( so sufficiant classic on the market to choose from)
2. Nobody of my musical buddy´s is playing classic and only because of learning a new instrument I didn´t want "to make new friends"...

When I asked for advice I thought that probably there would be something Irish/Celtic because they use the bouzuoki in CGDA tuning or am I wrong with that ?

Thanks again

René

[bluesmandolinman]

Dolamon
Yeah the Jazz Cello Wizzard sounds like a good place to start for my personal preferences.
Thanks everybody
René

[Dolamon]

Rene et al ... the 61cm length works really well with a "standard set" of 12 / 44 O/M strings, such as GHS' PF285 tuned to GDAe. It seems to me that for most "normal" playing of this length scale, a Rhythm / Melody approach is most appreciated by other players. Strict melody playing has a tendency of getting lost in the mix ... ie, why bother?

This past weekend I was privileged to see Darol Anger's newest group Republic of Strings. # (http://www.midcontinentmusic.com/detail.cfm?Catalogid=1878)The group has Rushad Eggelston on Cello and Scott Nygard on Guitar and these two Rhythm / Melody players redefined the possiblities in the context of a very hip acoustic quartet. Too convert the bowing technique to an M/Cello is a challenge and a remote possiblity (for me at least) but a goal and a direction. But Rushad's plucked counter melodies have to be heard to be believed. Two memorable cuts from this amazing group ... "Sneezin" which is a Scat/Rap vocal and "Lost in the Loop" a Liz Carrol, Celtic - Jazz thingy (Victor you'd love this one) which is a hypnotic tune with lots of plucked possibilites.

So - how do you get there from here? Not having the privilege of a classical music education - for me, it's more than just simply practicing scales and exploring nifty, stentorian sounds. Both the limitations and the unexplored potential of Mando family instruments leads to more and discoveries of what can be done. Most of these paths have recently taken on rhythmic exercises - it seems the sky's the limit at this corner of the musical spectrum. The Jazz Fiddle Wizard (Junior Edition) has really helped focus the more commonly ignored rhythm end of Melody playing.

Now, where did I park my Dumbek?

[steve V. johnson]

Thanks to Jim Garber for the new music references! That's wonderful, I never would have known where to find stuff like this!

stv

[steve V. johnson]

I have a Phil Crump zouk with a 25.5" scale, and I string it in unisons with .048, .038, .020w, .013 for tuning in GDAD.
I find that I cross-pick a bit more than I strum. I play Irish trad music mainly. Most of the new m'cellos I've seen (like the Webers) have been presented to me as working in either tuning, the CGDA or GDAE/D. I've always wondered what an old Gibson would be like in "Irish bouzouki" tunings...

I have a Flatiron mandola here, but I haven't been able to get used to the CGDA tuning ... yet.

Counterpoints, or low harmonies with the melodies are wonderful fun. We play a bunch of Liz Carroll tunes, she's fabulous and her tunes are great fun.

Thanks for the Darol Anger reference!!

stv

[Steve Baker]

For some mandocello work in another genre, cneck out Guy Clark's work, especially "Cold Dog Soup". Darrel Scott does some really nice MC work on that one.

Steve Baker
Foley bouzouki and lovin' it

[bluesmandolinman]

I have another question :

I have read in different places that many players remove one of the big C strings and play with just one C string....

Is there any other reason than " You can fret easier " ? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Thanks for your comments so far !

René

[mandocrucian]

Hey Rene,

I've got my electric guitar currently tuned to D-G-D-A-E or D-G-D-A-D, though I don't really play on it that much.

The lower you get, you'll tend to play fewer vertically stack notes. 2-note chords or doublestops rather than full chords which would tend to just get muddy.

You can approach the thing as if it were a bass guitar and play bass lines on it...."Hoochie Coochie Man", "Born Under A Bad Sign", etc. or "Pipeline" #

Or you can approach it as being an electric rhythm guitar which keeps to the lower strings....Link Wray stuff like "Rumble", and riff oriented grooves like Hooker boogies ("Boogie Chillun", "La Grange", "Bad To The Bone"). Also stuff like "Sharp Dressed Man", "Man On The Silver Mountain" (Blackmore's Rainbow), "Hear My Train A Comin'", "Mississippi Queen" (Mountain).

You may want to check out some of the DADGAD guitarists for Euro-folk stuff. #Or try doing some Ry Cooder rhythm guitar riffs. #Cooder actually used mandocello on a couple of tracks on his early records (might have been on Boomer's Story). Richard Thompson has used mando-cello on occasion also. #

But back to guitarists....start listening to some Martin Carthy; it's English folk, but he has a very blues kind of attack which he got from listening to Big Bill Broonzy. Also he tunes low: CGCDGA so he's in the same register as mando-cello.

The first album by Finnish folk group Ottopasuuna which came out on Amigo in Finland/Sweden and on Green Linnet in the USA. Petri Hakala is primarily playing an old Gibson mando-cello on that album; he's the primary rhythm player in the ensemble.

Also, you really ought to check out Roger Tallroth's 12-string guitar playing on albums with his Swedish folk band Väsen. #He tunes really low: ADADAD, with a bottom A under "dropped D" on the 5th string. #He's functionin as a combination of bass-guitar and rhythm/lead guitar. Great stuff. He's also on a couple of Annbjorg Lein's records too.

Don't be afraid of using your fingers in addition to the pick. It's the only way you're gonna be able to get some things. Or you could go without the pick totally using fingerstyle. Also, I would suggest you find an electric bassist who can do thumb slapping funk stuff and get him/her to show you how do do some of that. Brozman does all sorts of right hand stuff on guitar, and I know that's much more the sound/groove you are partial to.

Niles H

[delsbrother]

BMM, I think the reason was to keep those big ropy strings from buzzing against each other.

[vkioulaphides]

[QUOTE]"I think the reason was to keep those big ropy strings from buzzing against each other."

I think so, too.

On another tangent: Has anyone here played one of those cutout-guitar-bodied mandocellos by Ovation? I love the looks of them but —please correct me if I'm wrong— are they primarily intended to work as electric instruments? They (like the similar but of course smaller mandolins by Ovation) have no soundholes, built-in pickups and all the requisite wiring... They just "look" electric to my eyes.

Also, with the strings supported by a bridge fixed on the soundboard (unlike the tailpiece mechanism of the mandolin), how durable are they? Do the strings ultimately yank the bridge off the top? Guitars are one thing but, with the 8, heavier strings of the mandocello, I see the longevity of such a design with dread.

Any experiences would be appreciated. Always curious to know...

[bluesmandolinman]

Hi Niles
Thanks for your feedback. I am always astonished that whatever the question is you allways pull out names of bands and musicians I never heard before. Your are a living music library hmmm ?

I like the idea of the slapping technic. Automatically Big Joe Williams comes to my mind whom´s guitar style really excits me. I will definetly try !

And I will buy the Ottopasuuna CD . I entered the " send me an email option " at ebay , because in the moment none is offered. Mandocello as the primary rhythm instrument sounds very interesting to me.

Pick + fingering ... theoretically yes ...but ... I am very bad at it . I will have to take a lesson from my guitar buddy who is playing the alternate bass patterns with a thumb pick. Maybe i should try that instead of normal pick.

Thanks everybody !

Cheers René

[delsbrother]

I think Mandohack is the resident expert on Ovation Mandocelli. BTW I think they do have small soundholes in the upper bouts.. But if I remember correctly the entire reason people like them (and their american made Ovation emandos) was their sound when amplified. Every now and then one of them will turn up on eBay, but without sniping software I haven't had much luck! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[bluesmandolinman]

Hey Niles
Yesterday I received the CD of the first album by Finnish folk group Ottopasuuna which you recommended.
That mandocello rhythm playing is really great. Highly recommended for you mandocello players out there. Has also great mandolin picking and octave mandolin too.
This finish folk stuff is not what I am used to hear normally but i liked it right from the beginnning.

Ok I just wanted to let you know that this CD is cool... and now I try to play along

Thanks Niles for the inspiration.

René http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[jmcgann]

Check out Rushad Eggleston's cello playing; Mike Marshall's "Gator Strut"; Pepper Adams, Gerry Mulligan, Nick Brignola's baritone sax playing...

[delsbrother]

I took the plunge and am now the proud owner of an Ovation Mandocello.... Now what? LOL.

I was checking out some links on the web (as well as here on MC) about Robert Fripp's New Standard Guitar tuning, CGDAEG. Is there anything within that repertoire that could be used for Mandocello? I hesitate to say "translated to Mandocello" because.. Isn't it the same tuning? Well, OK it has the extended OM range + the high G in there.. Still very mandish, IMO.

I've tried some straight fifths and reentrant tunings on my guitars; maybe I'll try this one next. I have a Strat lying around going unplayed..

Is there any written or web-based Guitar Craft stuff, or do you have to shave your head and go to the Monastery of Fripp to figure it out? It seems like a lot of stuff could be used for either NST guitar or Mandocello - at least that's what I get listening to the recordings. The CGT stuff sounds very much like old Mando-Orchestra-meets-King-Crimson to me.

Any Crafty Mandocellists out there?