Distressing an Eastman

[mangorockfish]

Been away from the mandolin and the Cafe for a long time, but now I'm back for good. I have a beautiful Eastman 615 that plays and sounds like a million bucks. Now, I would like to distress it and upgrade it somewhat, so I'm open for ideas. Ivoroid tunner knobs, bone nut, new bridge and tailpiece as for upgrades. Tell me which ones work the best. :confused: Now, you guys tell me about distressing. Would like for it to have been a varnish finish, but it isn't so what now?

[catmandu2]

Lend it to Tim.

[Charley wild]

Shouldn't take long.:))

[Mike Bunting]

just play it, it'll get destressed soon enough.

[OldSausage]

If it sounds good, please leave it alone. The finish at least. I mean, as Mike says, play it. That's what you need to do.

[MikeEdgerton]

I usually back the Ford over them a few times to distress them.

[BRaySims]

I have a great sounding 615 as well that I purchased in '05. It already has a solid cast tailpiece, don't think it would need changing. I let Steve Perry at Gianna Violins in TN put a fossilized bone bridge and nut on mine. Like everyone else, play the dickens out of it and you'll have all the warm, meaningful distressing you will want. Enjoy it for what it produces, not just what it looks like.

[catmandu2]

I usually back the Ford over them a few times to distress them.

But will this treatment be sufficient for an Ovation? :confused:

[jim_n_virginia]

Send it to Gibson ... they will distress it for you for. Shouldn't cost more than 2 or 3 grand! :grin:

[John Flynn]

Would that be to make it look like a old vintage Eastman, from back in the '20's? :cool:

[Buck]

I usually back the Ford over them a few times to distress them.Good to see another Ford man on the Cafe. Too many people try this with Chevrolet's, or worse yet, foreign cars. It just not the same.

[Tim2723]

It depends on your definition of distressed. I don't actually do distressed. My mandolins are beautiful right to the end.

[allenhopkins]

What do you think the Eastman is, a pair of Levi's? Throw it in the "hot" cycle with a cup of Clorox, then rip out the knees?

My experience with Eastman mandolins, and their relatively thin finishes, is that they'll "distress" soon enough. I got through the finish on my 615 mandola in less than six months. The bigger question is, why would you want to do it? Your mandolin "plays and sounds like a million bucks," so full speed ahead, replace the bridge, tailpiece and nut, wear all the finish off, put new tuner buttons on (but acid-corrode the tuners first, just like the "vintage" Strats)...

Would it surprise you that changing so many features of your "million buck" Eastman might, in fact, make it sound like $750,000 instead -- and make it look like $1.98? No one will believe that you have a pre-war Eastman -- they don't exist -- and to a few of us, an industriously "aged" instrument says "poser" rather than "vintage quality."

I mean, it's your instrument; paint it orange, if you want -- but, still, why?

[catmandu2]

My mandolins are beautiful right to the end.

Tim, at the risk of sounding cynical...how beautiful is that textured plastic? :disbelief:


Would it surprise you that changing so many features of your "million buck" Eastman might, in fact, make it sound like $750,000 instead -- and make it look like $1.98? No one will believe that you have a pre-war Eastman -- they don't exist -- and to a few of us, an industriously "aged" instrument says "poser" rather than "vintage quality."

I mean, it's your instrument; paint it orange, if you want -- but, still, why?

Sobering. This, of course, is good stuff, as Allen often will come straight across with the goods ; if you haven't yet come to your senses on this mangorockfish, then have another cup of black coffee and sleep it off. ;)

[Tim2723]

Well Cat, I know what you mean, but mine stay nice and shiny right up until somebody crushes the crushable bits. Even last week's F5 was a pretty thing without even a fingerprint. The bridge was smashed straight through the soundboard, but no fingerprints! I don't have scratched, buggered up instruments until the final stroke.

Allen, straight to the meat of it as always. Nothing says ###### like a 'pre-distressed' instrument.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Never were truer words 'typed',than those of Allen Hopkins. Your Mandolin sounds as good as it does because of 'the way it is'. Leave it alone & enjoy it. Change the way it is, & you might be very unhappy with it & there's NO going back. I've grown to love the look of 'distressed' instruments & like them as much as 'normal' ones,but i'd no more think of distressing my Weber Fern,than i'd think of sawing of my left hand (i'm right handed you see !). Just play it & enjoy it the way it is & as it's been said above,it'll distress soon enough. If it's as good as you say,you'll be playing the bejeezus out of it enough to do that - if you're not,you SHOULD BE !!!,
Ivan:grin:

[onassis]

Man!...people seem to be getting a little worked up about somebody wanting to distress an Eastman. Usually takes the "G" word to inspire such passion! Personally, I say do what you like. You know what you want.

[MikeEdgerton]

Good to see another Ford man on the Cafe. Too many people try this with Chevrolet's, or worse yet, foreign cars. It just not the same.

A Mack B Model will work as well.


But will this treatment be sufficient for an Ovation?

Only if you get it directly under a tire.

[catmandu2]

Only if you get it directly under a tire.

So, careful aim then. This distressing is not simply a dilettante affair! :popcorn:

[Rick Schmidlin]

Been away from the mandolin and the Cafe for a long time, but now I'm back for good. I have a beautiful Eastman 615 that plays and sounds like a million bucks. Now, I would like to distress it and upgrade it somewhat, so I'm open for ideas. Ivoroid tunner knobs, bone nut, new bridge and tailpiece as for upgrades. Tell me which ones work the best. :confused: Now, you guys tell me about distressing. Would like for it to have been a varnish finish, but it isn't so what now?


Relax,don't do it:mandosmiley:

[catmandu2]

Man!...people seem to be getting a little worked up about somebody wanting to distress an Eastman. Usually takes the "G" word to inspire such passion! Personally, I say do what you like. You know what you want.

I agree that "######" is a little strong, and "poser," while perhaps less vitriolic, is still provocative. One may observe that people--especially of the X-generation;)--are accustomed to doing all kinds of crazy things: bungee jumping; extreme activities of all sorts in the absence of head protection gear; body piercing; etc. Rubbing a little paint and laquer off the wood isn't so radical. Hell, Tim likes to "smash" his instruments..


Old schoolers among the board here will tend to react a little...curmudgeonly, in the case of "cosmetic enhancement." Heck, my grandpa thought intermittant-delay windshield wipers were a frivolous gadget. I doubt if he'd had much use for facial piercings, sub-woofers, lowriders, skinny-legged pants, "distressing" instruments, or other ostensible affectations.

As has been said, many times...many ways: one's ostensible affectation is another's artistic expression.

Where is the icon for curmudgeonliness?..

[billkilpatrick]

if you're asking "how" i'd say a light rub with some fine steel wool should knock the bling back a bit (wear a mask - avoid getting nitrocellulite dust in your lungs) but if you're asking "should i" - i'd say no ... a daily rub-down with a heavy chamois cloth should rekindle your love for it - as is - without resorting to unnecessary cosmetic surgery.

[MikeEdgerton]

...Heck, my grandpa thought intermittant-delay windshield wipers were a frivolous gadget....

You mean they're not?

[catmandu2]

"You young kids today with yer fancy delay windshield wipers!... you think you're so smart ... " :mad:

Yes, in grampy's day, not only did he walk 20 miles to school uphill both ways, through ten feet of snow...but he manually activated the windshield wipers every five to seven seconds. And he ENJOYED it, by God!

[pager]

Time and use will distress it enough. Why help that process along?

jillian

[allenhopkins]

Re-thinking my first post, I wouldn't say "poser." There are people who do prefer the "vintage" look, which is why the "distressed" new instruments sell at a premium. I think it's a bit silly, since the idea of distressing is to replicate the wear and tear that subtracts value from real vintage instruments -- finding a '30's Gibson in "mint" condition is preferable to finding one that's been "distressed" by age and use. But to each his or her own.

What did sort of startle me is the approach of "I have this instrument that I really like, that sounds like 'a million bucks,' plays the way I want it, etc. etc. Now I'd like to change out the nut, bridge, tailpiece, tuner buttons -- and scrape some of the finish off." If I had a mandolin with which I was totally satisfied, I wouldn't change it, and I wouldn't let anyone else do it either. Because, who knows that the outcome of all those changes would be improvement? And, as pointed out above, there's no going back, at least with the distressing (you can put original bridge, nut, tailpiece, etc. back on if the changes aren't welcome -- but you're still out the cost of all the new parts!).

So forgive my somewhat insulting choice of words. As I said, do what you want with your own instrument. I've committed a few sins with instruments I've owned, for sure...

[catmandu2]

It is the mando cafe after all, so no doubt the OP's were evocative words here. I think having a cup of coffee and mulling over this:

"I have this instrument that I really like, that sounds like 'a million bucks,' plays the way I want it, etc. etc. Now I'd like to change out the nut, bridge, tailpiece, tuner buttons -- and scrape some of the finish off."

...is a good idea.

[John Flynn]

Well, I agree with the idea that everyone should do what they want with their instuments. If you want to distress them, go right ahead. But if you post here asking what people think about it, they are going to tell you. If you don't want those opinions, don't ask. You can say something like, "I want these kinds of opinons and not those kinds of opinions," but within the posting guidelines, you can't enforce it.

I agree that "poser" is a bit of a harsh term to actually put in print here, but I have to appreciate it as being honest. It is pretty obvious that people do a lot of "posing" with their instruments and when I see that, the word "poser" does jump into my head, although I wouldn't say it out loud. Also, I think the OP should know that people think that. So I have to appreciate Allen for being honest.

My "un-varnished" opinion is that artificial distressing is just that, artificial. If you want to be artificial, go for it. It doesn't register well with me, but that's just me. I also think it is putting the emphasis on something other than making music. That's OK too, and I suppose we all do it to some extent, but artificial distressing seems to me to be a blatant example.

Like I said, do what you want, but if you ask for opinions, you get them. As the saying goes, "Be careful what you ask for."

[Caleb]

I didn't fully "distress" my Eastman, but I did "antique" it a bit. I wasn't trying to go for mojo or be a "poser," but I just wanted to open up the sound. I think Eastman must dip their mandolins in gloss finish; mine had a ton on there. It was dampening the tone quite a bit. I simply used green Scotchbrite and took off the gloss. I then roughed up the edges a bit to give it a bit of an antique look, and I was done. I did end up taking all the finish off the back of the neck, mainly for feel. I don't care what my instruments look like, but they do have to sound and feel right. The fact that it ended up looking great was just a bonus. And the sound really did open up.

[MikeEdgerton]

I've suddenly realized that I'm not old, I'm just distressed looking. I feel much better now.

[Tim2723]

Well, I suppose that if Allen's 'poser' was over the top, I shouldn't say ######. Lightening the finish for better tone or stripping the neck for faster play is one thing, but it's not being a ######.

But nevertheless, I've known three guys. One used a Dremel to grind a 'Willie Hole' in the top of his otherwise pristine guitar to pretend it was generations of pick wear. Two fellows scraped patches of the white frost off their banjo heads to make others think them old timers. Their instruments, their money, all of the above, and to each his own. But nobody was fooled and, right or wrong, everyone laughed behind their backs.

Wankers all.

[r.riley77]

Another vote for Steve Perry at Gianna Violins in TN. Let him do his Mandovoodo thing to it.

[mangorockfish]

Thank all of you for your well thought-out reccomendations. I've thought about everything that was said, some kind, some not so kind and have decided to leave well enough alone. Again, thank you.

[Martin]

Hey mangorockfish,
I changed my tuner buttons over to ivoroid and used some yellow alchol dye to darken them up. I also installed a bone nut, use the unbleached stuff if you can. I also prefer the vintage or Gibson style tailpiece. The finish on those Eastmans is pretty thin so removing it with steel wool or scotchbrite should be fairly easy. I've refinished several instruments to varying degrees of distress and found that alchol dye and tung oil very easy and forgiving to work with. Good luck.

As far as all the comments and opinions about not doing anything to it, all I can say is that it's yours, you paid for it so do what you want.

[Rob Gerety]

Do a little research on the internets. They will have the answer for sure.

[jim_n_virginia]

Thank all of you for your well thought-out reccomendations. I've thought about everything that was said, some kind, some not so kind and have decided to leave well enough alone. Again, thank you.

Glad you came to your senses Mango! LOL! Distress that baby the old fashioned way ... play the heck oughtta that thing.

Welcome back! :mandosmiley:

[mangorockfish]

Thank all of you for your well thought-out reccomendations. I've thought about everything that was said, some kind, some not so kind and have decided to leave well enough alone. Again, thank you.

[Jason Kindall]

Not to beat a dead horse here, but...

I think you'll be happier this way in the long run.

I happen to like the professional distress jobs on Webers and Ken's Silverangels, and I own a CS relic Fender strat. It is a cool look, but can't compare to the real deal. I learned the hard way not to do a home distressing job (hardware and plastic parts aside). I did a home distress job on a stratocaster years ago, and immediately regretted it. Not that I did a bad job, just that there's something about it that doesn't ever 'feel' right. I ended up learning real fast how to do hand refinishing and refinned the strat from the wood up. Ended up with a very cool guitar, but not distressed!

Play that baby 'til it falls apart or until you do! :mandosmiley::mandosmiley::mandosmiley:

[devilsbox]

You used to get delay wipers every time you went up a hill. "back in the day"

[Charley wild]

You used to get delay wipers every time you went up a hill. "back in the day"

Yeah, and you could pull that wiper hose off in nice weather and make those glass packs really pop. Especially going downhill!:grin:

(I'll bet the whippersnappers here don't have a clue what we're talking about)!

[mandohack]

I would consider how distressing would affect the resale value, not so much everyone's opinions. My guess is it might not be a good idea in that respect, but maybe there is someone who would pay top dollar for that look if/when you decide to sell. I just picked up a Ken Ratcliff (lightly) distressed A model and it is everything I want in a mandolin- sound, playability and looks. I don't care what anyone thinks about it, I just play for fun.:cool:

[Ivan Kelsall]

IMHO,i think you've made a wise decision,especially considering how good your Mandolin sounds to you currently. Yes,you CAN do what you like with your instrument - it is yours after all,but simply because you can do something,doesn't alway mean that it's a good idea to actually DO it.
You've made the decision to leave your Mandolin alone,well,at least we won't be reading a post that you distressed it & now it sounds c**p. Always err on the side of caution & your gut feeling,there's no going back - well,there is,but it's usually an expensive return trip,
Ivan ;)

[catmandu2]

Yeah, and you could pull that wiper hose off in nice weather and make those glass packs really pop. Especially going downhill!:grin:

(I'll bet the whippersnappers here don't have a clue what we're talking about)!

Yep...ya got me :confused:

[Steve Ostrander]

The words "distressing" and "upgrading" in the same sentence are an oxymoron.

[pickloser]

The man asked how to make a particular type of sandwich, and you guys peer pressured him out of it altogether. I say, if you want an F, get an F. Oops, I mean, if you want to distress the thing, have at it. Although, I think you should get a well-used A style instead. Oops, I mean I don't think you should do it. :whistling:

[catmandu2]

The man asked how to make a particular type of sandwich, and you guys peer pressured him out of it altogether.

Yeah, but only cyberpeers, we are..

[OldSausage]

The man asked how to make a particular type of sandwich, and you guys peer pressured him out of it altogether.

Sandwich? What he said was, "I have a nice sandwich already, should I roll it around in the dirt before I eat it?". And we said "No, ewww!". That's all.

[catmandu2]

The man asked how to make a particular type of sandwich, and you guys peer pressured him out of it altogether.

Tough love...:)

[Tim2723]

The man asked how to make a particular type of sandwich, and you guys peer pressured him out of it altogether.


There were sandiches? I didn't get any sandwiches. Was there beer too? Man, I miss out on everything. :crying:

[Laird]

I think Eastman must dip their mandolins in gloss finish; mine had a ton on there. It was dampening the tone quite a bit. I simply used green Scotchbrite and took off the gloss... I don't care what my instruments look like, but they do have to sound and feel right. The fact that it ended up looking great was just a bonus. And the sound really did open up.

This brings up the question that I've been wondering about. My Eastman is a lot glossier than I'd prefer, and I'm really attracted to a more natural finish. Now, don't get me wrong--I'm not going to do anything to my Eastman (other than welcome it back from MandoVoodoo next week). But I am wondering about the potential muting effects of some finishes. Sounds like Caleb was able to open up the sound by stripping off the glossy Eastman finish... Is that something other folks have experienced as well?

[OldSausage]

I think the idea that a layer of gloss finish thinner than a human hair is going to mute a mandolin's tone enough to be perceptible is just a fantasy.

[allenhopkins]

I think Eastman must dip their mandolins in gloss finish; mine had a ton on there. It was dampening the tone quite a bit....The fact that it ended up looking great was just a bonus. And the sound really did open up.

Boy, Caleb, I find this quite surprising. The finish on my 615 mandola was so thin, that a single afternoon playing at an outdoor jam in the hot sun, planting my little finger as I do, had me wearing right through the lacquer down to bare wood! When I talked it over with my dealer/repairman, he said that his experience with Eastmans is that the finish is thin, and often a bit soft, so that finish wear and sometimes stickiness are often complained of. And the Eastman rep who posts here on the Cafe said that they'd made a decision to keep the finishes thin, for acoustic reasons. Now the mandola has a little glued-on clear plastic pickguard where my fingers rest, and a bit of finish touch-up underneath the plastic.

Perhaps a difference between models...? I've seen Asian instruments that did look plastic-dipped, but not Eastman mandolins. Wonder if there's been a change.

[Caleb]

Boy, Caleb, I find this quite surprising. The finish on my 615 mandola was so thin, that a single afternoon playing at an outdoor jam in the hot sun, planting my little finger as I do, had me wearing right through the lacquer down to bare wood! When I talked it over with my dealer/repairman, he said that his experience with Eastmans is that the finish is thin, and often a bit soft, so that finish wear and sometimes stickiness are often complained of. And the Eastman rep who posts here on the Cafe said that they'd made a decision to keep the finishes thin, for acoustic reasons. Now the mandola has a little glued-on clear plastic pickguard where my fingers rest, and a bit of finish touch-up underneath the plastic.

Perhaps a difference between models...? I've seen Asian instruments that did look plastic-dipped, but not Eastman mandolins. Wonder if there's been a change.The finish on the back of my mandolin's neck was very thin. In fact, it came off within seconds (all the way down to the bare wood) with just scotchbrite. But the gloss on the body was globbed on. Perhaps it was a fluke of a deal on Eastman's part. No harm done as far as I'm concerned though. The thing is a tank and sounds and plays beautifully. I just wanted the gloss off. I'm not a fan of gloss in the first place though.

[Caleb]

I think the idea that a layer of gloss finish thinner than a human hair is going to mute a mandolin's tone enough to be perceptible is just a fantasy.

Perhaps. But people hear things differently. To some a pick is a pick, and its only function is to strike the stings to make sound. But some folks go through pick after pick, swearing it improves tone. Same with strings, etc, etc. In my experience, even a slight change in finish thickness does change the tone of an instrument. YMMV.

[Elliot Luber]

Do what I did. I let my son borrow it. Fully distressed now.

[wogster]

I think the idea that a layer of gloss finish thinner than a human hair is going to mute a mandolin's tone enough to be perceptible is just a fantasy.

It has been said that the reason, nobody has ever been able to duplicate the sound of a Antonio Stradivari violin, comes down to the composition of the finish that he used on his instruments, if the composition of the finish can affect the sound, then whether there is or isn't finish can also affect the sound. Now how much the finish on a Stradivarius affects the sound and how much the fact that it's been played regularly for around 400 years is up for debate. If this applies to violins there is no reason it doesn't apply to other instruments like mandolins as well. If an instrument sounds like a million bucks, and the finish may affect the sound, then is it worth taking the risk of ruining a good sounding instrument. Far better for the player to play it until it looks old and abused then trying to fake it.

[gregjones]

You used to get delay wipers every time you went up a hill. "back in the day"

Depends on the grade of the hill---you could end up with no wipers.;)

[gregjones]

My "un-varnished" opinion is that artificial distressing is just that, artificial. If you want to be artificial, go for it. It doesn't register well with me, but that's just me.

"If it weren't for that store bought paint.......that St. Louis woman....wouldn't look like something she ain't."

I would credit that to Doc Watson, but there would be contradictions. That's where I heard it---credit it to where you will.

[catmandu2]

If this applies to violins there is no reason it doesn't apply to other instruments like mandolins as well.

Hmm...maybe. I'm not so sure that what's good for violins necessarily equates with what's good for mandos, etc. Although, I agree that wood treatment likely has some affect on sonic characteristics to greater and lesser extents, even on mandos.

[Charley wild]

Depends on the grade of the hill---you could end up with no wipers.;)

True, but in nice weather yank that vacuum hose off and the dual glasspacks sure sounded great on the ol' flathead! Kind of a trade off. Keep on truckin".:)

[PJ Doland]

I actually think the idea of a pre-distressed new instrument is intriguing, as it probably makes you less worried about cosmetic damage that comes by way of normal use.

A shiny new mandolin with one big scratch is unnerving to the owner. When a brand new mandolin comes with 20 scratches and scuffs, and an area of missing finish, are you really going to feel bad when you put on #21 playing the thing out?

[catmandu2]

I guess I haven't really weighed-in on this yet, myself. Aesthetically, IMO "predistressed" is about as appealing as faded denims...I hated them after about 1975.

[mandohack]

I think the original post said something like "tell me about distressing". It didn't say "what is your opinion on distressing". Go to the thread about the Gibson Distressed Master Models and see how many people post about how they don't like distressing.

[Mattg]

I think Eastman must dip their mandolins in gloss finish; mine had a ton on there. It was dampening the tone quite a bit. I simply used green Scotchbrite and took off the gloss.

They have a few different finish types. My 615 has a pretty thin finish, just normal wear over the last several years has made mine look somewhat distressed. But not old. It's still very glossy in parts but that's how they did the final treatment and polish. It has nothing to do with the thickness of a finish. French polish can be very thin and very glossy.

I still don't get the desire to distress. I agree with Allen on this. The best things I did to my eastman was to fit a Cumberland Acoustic bridge on it and, when the frets wore out, got thicker frets, nicer nut and an expert neck setup. Really like my mandolin now.

[allenhopkins]

"If it weren't for that store bought paint.......that St. Louis woman....wouldn't look like something she ain't."
[/SIZE]

Wasn't for the powder, and the straightenin' comb,
De Kalb woman, she wouldn't have no home.

-- Fred Gerlach, De Kalb Blues, originally sung by Leadbelly

[catmandu2]

Wasn't for the powder, and the straightenin' comb,
De Kalb woman, she wouldn't have no home.

-- Fred Gerlach, De Kalb Blues, originally sung by Leadbelly

An obscure endorsment for "predistressing"?...or merely an interesting aside?.. ;)

[300win]

I am also in the camp that thinks that thin finishes enhance a instruments sound. I have both a Gibson A-9, and a Gibson F-5 Jam-Master. Both of thse mandolins have a very thin finish, and both of them from day one sounded great, after playing the #### out of both they are sounding better everyday. I'm also a planter/brusher with my little fingers while taking breaks, as you can see in my photo the A-9 shows that fact very well. I read on another thread here a while back that somebody had Alan Bibey pick thier F-9, and his comment was that he believed one of the reasons they sound so good right out of the gate was the fact that the finish was very thin. I'll agree with him 100%. It only makes sense does it not ? A instrument wioth a few years of wear and tear on it sounds better, one of the reasons why besides playing the tar out of it all the time is that the finish is beginning to get old and thinner, exposed to sunlight, heat, cold, hogh humidity, low humidity, etc. Then it stands to reason that a instrument with a thinner finish is going to arive at that state sooner than one with a thicker finish.

[OldSausage]

It only makes sense does it not ? A instrument wioth a few years of wear and tear on it sounds better, one of the reasons why besides playing the tar out of it all the time is that the finish is beginning to get old and thinner, exposed to sunlight, heat, cold, hogh humidity, low humidity, etc. Then it stands to reason that a instrument with a thinner finish is going to arive at that state sooner than one with a thicker finish.

No, this is a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Just because finishes get thinner as mandolins get older and sound improves (arguably) as mandolins get older, it does not follow that a thinner finish is the cause of the mandolin sounding better, nor does it follow that removing the finish allows the mandolin to age in the way that improves sound faster. It could just as easily have a detrimental effect on the sound.

[Yonkle]

Let it distress naturally. When they are built to look distressed, personally I think that gives it a phony look anyway. I never understood why someone wants a perfectly good looking instrument to look beat up anyway. If it looks that way from years of playing, thats the sign it's had a good life, if it looks that way because someone tried to make it look "very used" thats just fake!

[300win]

No, this is a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Just because finishes get thinner as mandolins get older and sound improves (arguably) as mandolins get older, it does not follow that a thinner finish is the cause of the mandolin sounding better, nor does it follow that removing the finish allows the mandolin to age in the way that improves sound faster. It could just as easily have a detrimental effect on the sound.

I'm actually on the verge of shedding tears becuase of all those latin { is it?} words you're using. I respect your opinion, but I still think I'm right. Mandoin, guitars, banjos, fiddles, acoustic instruments are all made of wood, wood has to vibrate, the more room it has to vibrate the better the sound it will produce, a thick finish "holds" the wood tighter cutting down it's ability to vibrate, a thin finish is right the opposite, it ain't rocket science now is it ?

[John Flynn]

"If it weren't for that store bought paint.......that St. Louis woman....wouldn't look like something she ain't."
Hey, hey, buddy, I'm from St. Louis and it ain't nice you talkin' about my wife like that, even if it's true! :))

Seriously, though, you raise a good point. The meaning of the quote is "that St. Louis woman" is using "paint" (cosmetics) to look YOUNGER, with less lines or wrinkles. The applicable definition of "distressed" in my dictionary is "made to look older: artificially given an old or worn appearance." I can't imagine a woman, in St. Louis or otherwise, going to a cosmetic counter and saying, "What do you have that will make me look older and give me a worn appearance?" That ain't gonna happen!

Similarly, I can't imagine doing that with cars or hardly anything else I treasure. It seems jeans and stringed instruments are the main market for distressing. I am certainly "distressed" by the trend with mandolins!

[OldSausage]

I'm actually on the verge of shedding tears becuase of all those latin { is it?} words you're using. I respect your opinion, but I still think I'm right. Mandoin, guitars, banjos, fiddles, acoustic instruments are all made of wood, wood has to vibrate, the more room it has to vibrate the better the sound it will produce, a thick finish "holds" the wood tighter cutting down it's ability to vibrate, a thin finish is right the opposite, it ain't rocket science now is it ?

The latin just means "after therefore because of this". I'm not saying necessarily that your conclusion is wrong, just that your reasoning was wrong. What you've presented in the quote above is a completely different argument from the one in your earlier post, and I can see the merit in it.

I tend to suspect that the actual thickness of this finish is so small as to be unlikely to be a significant factor, but that is just my opinion and I have nothing to base it on but my intuition.

[300win]

No it is the same thing I posted before, thin finish = faster aging, thicker finish = slower aging process. Maybe the reson IO can't explain myself is because I don't know Latin ? Only a GED education here man, but with 44 years of playing experience, a few of those making my living. I've seen and held a bunch of instruments during that time. Some great, some good, some mediocre, and some just downright dogs. That is what I'm basing my opinion on, what are you basing yours on ?

[Charley wild]

No, this is a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Just because finishes get thinner as mandolins get older and sound improves (arguably) as mandolins get older, it does not follow that a thinner finish is the cause of the mandolin sounding better, nor does it follow that removing the finish allows the mandolin to age in the way that improves sound faster. It could just as easily have a detrimental effect on the sound.

Great! The "post hoc" fallacy could be posted in SEVERAL threads that keep popping up on this forum! Good one, OldSausage.:)

[Scott Crabtree]

Is it the thickness of the finish or the type of finish that matters?

It seems as tho varnish is the in finish right now and you pay more for that.

If these mando makers thought that less or no finish was better, why don't they make them that way?

Look at an Ellis or Collings even the refinished Hutto at Smokey Mountain Guitars has been refinished with varnish.

[catmandu2]

Let it distress naturally. When they are built to look distressed, personally I think that gives it a phony look anyway... thats just fake!

I'd like to weigh-in with another analogy: For me, "predistressed" instruments are as appealing as breast augmentation (I lost interest with that too in 1975...)

[300win]

Correct me if I'm wrong luthiers, but the varnish/french polish is one of the thinest finishes I believe. Thus enforcing what I said in my earlier post. If the varnish/french polish finnish is thinner, then why do you supose that people pay more for that ? Could it be that that particular finnish lets the wood age faster, thus inmproving the sound quicker ?

[catmandu2]

Is it the thickness of the finish or the type of finish that matters?


In violin-making (not that everything equates between mandos and violins..), the complex question of wood treatment and sonic production ranges from scientific to mystical. There are obviously many approaches.

300win, I wouldn't take David's use of latin offensively--I think he was merely making his point of view on the topic.

[Mike Bunting]

The latin just means "after therefore because of this". I'm not saying necessarily that your conclusion is wrong, just that your reasoning was wrong. What you've presented in the quote above is a completely different argument from the one in your earlier post, and I can see the merit in it.

I tend to suspect that the actual thickness of this finish is so small as to be unlikely to be a significant factor, but that is just my opinion and I have nothing to base it on but my intuition.
Put me in Old Sausage's camp. I've been playing for close to 40 years, made some money doing, toured in Europe blah, blah, blah and I took Latin in high school and university, if that has some bearing on my credibility in this matter.

[300win]

In violin-making (not that everything equates between mandos and violins..), the complex question of wood treatment and sonic production ranges from scientific to mystical. There are obviously many approaches.

300win, I wouldn't take David's use of latin offensively--I think he was merely making his point of view on the topic.

Point taken. As a fellow that never had a higher education, sometimes i get offended by people that do and flaunt it. But in the basics of the mwtter, I look on all things with commen sense, and the common sense of what we are discussing here tells me that I'm right in my beliefs.

[300win]

As you can tell I can barely type. I'm a one finger guy, so I make alot of mistakes, but I do love to read, and so I have a knowledge that is beyond my education, but as far as what we are talking about here 44 years of picking around a great deal of folks with differant instruments I think does give me some knowledge that is not gleaned from books.

[catmandu2]

Point taken. As a fellow that never had a higher education, sometimes i get offended by people that do and flaunt it. But in the basics of the mwtter, I look on all things with commen sense, and the common sense of what we are discussing here tells me that I'm right in my beliefs.

Cool. You certainly are "right in your beliefs"...you have the right to believe that what you're saying is correct, and vice-versa. I would hope that you do believe that what you're saying is correct (or else, one should use the ;) so as not to confuse us). But this, of course, is an indeterminable issue, so being emotionally fixed probably won't be very productive.

But, concerning woods, wood treatment, sound, hearing, playing, aesthetics and the intermingling of these...there is little "common sense."

[John Flynn]

People pay more for varnish because it takes more work to apply it, so if they want that, luthiers have to charge more. People want it because they like the look of it, they like the difference in tone (different NOT meaning better, just different) or because the classic vintage instruments had it and they want that. We have had lots of previous discussions about varnish vs. lacquer and there seems to be no consensus that varnish is superior. BTW, there are not only two choices, there are other great finishes, like oil.

Another point is thickness. I read an interview with Pete Langdell where he said words to the effect that the thickness of finishes is deceptive. If you finish wood really well with a really high gloss, the finish will look "deep" or thick, even though it may not be. If you finish with a satin or matte finish, the finish can actually be quite thick, but not look like it. Most varnish instruments I've seen, even when they are highly polished, don't appear to be quite as glossy as lacquer instruments. I wonder if there is not a perceptual thing going on.

Finally, if less thickness of finish is better, why do varnish or lacquer? You could put a preservative on the wood that would not add any thickness at all.

[Charley wild]

I'm actually on the verge of shedding tears becuase of all those latin { is it?} words you're using. I respect your opinion, but I still think I'm right. Mandoin, guitars, banjos, fiddles, acoustic instruments are all made of wood, wood has to vibrate, the more room it has to vibrate the better the sound it will produce, a thick finish "holds" the wood tighter cutting down it's ability to vibrate, a thin finish is right the opposite, it ain't rocket science now is it ?

I've owned and played dozens of acoustic instruments in my lifetime and just can't automatically equate the sound of an instrument with the thickness or type of finish. Sorry, 300win but that IS a fallacy! I've played and owned instruments with thick finishes that sound good and with thin finishes that didn't! And the aging wood thing is very controversial. No one knows beyond all shadow of a doubt what aging does or doesn't do with wooden instruments. That would be like stating that all things being as equal as possible my mandolin is going to sound better than yours just because it's twenty years older. There is just too many factors at play to make DEFINITE statements pertaining to what makes an intrument sound or not sound good.
I'm not beating up on you,300win, I just disagree with you.

[300win]

Ok, I'll shut up now. No point in beating a dead mule, he ain't gonna feel it or anything you tell him. Oh I do by the way have experience in that, not a dead mule but a live one. How many of ya'll have ever plowed with a mule ? Mules are like people, they are smart and they just don't listen until you get thier attention. On this thread I see I can't get any of ya'll's attention to what I'm saying, so I'll hush and let all the other highly educated people thrash it out.

[catmandu2]

There is just too many factors at play to make DEFINITE statements pertaining to what makes an intrument sound or not sound good.

I mean, this is it, isn't it?

For example, Ramirez, one of the oldest and finer builders of classical guitars, uses laminated backs and sides, which contradicts the axiom that all-solid wood instruments are unequivocally "better."

[Scott Crabtree]

<<<On this thread I see I can't get any of ya'll's attention to what I'm saying, so I'll hush and let all the other highly educated people thrash it out.>>>

Why do you say that, your opinion is valued...I don't see what education has to do with this discussion at all.

Our ears are either stupid or smart.

On the matter of finish what is preferred to some is looks and others sound. I guess each instrument sounds exactly like itself, no matter the finish.

[Mike Bunting]

Ok, I'll shut up now. No point in beating a dead mule, he ain't gonna feel it or anything you tell him. Oh I do by the way have experience in that, not a dead mule but a live one. How many of ya'll have ever plowed with a mule ? Mules are like people, they are smart and they just don't listen until you get thier attention. On this thread I see I can't get any of ya'll's attention to what I'm saying, so I'll hush and let all the other highly educated people thrash it out.
I ploughed with a Case 500 and John Deere 4140, had horses since I was 5, raised them, and also raised purebred sheep and ran cattle on the ranch here in Alberta. Never killed a mule. Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they are not paying attention.

[GTG]

Varnish, Latin, mules, whatever. You guys may know that these topics have been discussed ad nauseum (that means 'a lot, until you feel nauseous') in the builder's forum on several occasions, with a lot of folks who know what they're talking about weighing in. I'd advise using the 'search' tool on topics including

varnish vs lacquer
distressing
thickness of finish
Stradivari (yep, even that one - no consensus at all that it had to do with the finish)

Otherwise, this is sounding like a lot of clown-punching.

[catmandu2]

Varnish, Latin, mules, whatever. You guys may know that these topics have been discussed ad nauseum...

Really? Mules?!!! :disbelief:

I would think that commonplace arguing over varnish finishes is right up there with politics, religion (and...mules of course).

[Scott Crabtree]

I prefer to call them burros, my mando on the other hand is a hoss.

I think it is good to discuss these things instead of just reading about them on some old thread, imho

I heard on some 'other' thread that french polish is super fragile? I do really like Passernigs mandolins and have had the chance to play one, I believe he uses French polish instead of other finishes...

I wonder why there is so much of a variant as to what different builders use? I know time is money, but is it not the sound and the overall finished product that is of utmost consideration...

is it cutting corners to use a lesser finish?

[man dough nollij]

Hmm. 59 posts since the OP decided against any distressing...:popcorn:

[catmandu2]

Hmm. 59 posts since the OP decided against any distressing...:popcorn:

We're onto mules, now. C'mon, man...

[mandohack]

We need a new forum category called "I know more than you".

[Mike Bunting]

No, no, mules are not burros. Mules are a cross between a horse and a donkey, they cannot reproduce. We used to put a varnish on horse hooves when we were dressing them up for show. There is nothing like moseying along on horseback, playing your mandolin as the sun goes down. It does wonders to de-stress yourself at the end of a long day. :)

[catmandu2]

We used to put a varnish on horse hooves

Yes but...thin or thick? :disbelief:


I don't think you want to say varnish amd mule in the same sentence around here...that's just BEGGING for trouble...:mad:

[Scott Crabtree]

Thanks for the correction, I had no idea there was the difference between a burro and a mule. I wonder if they can carry weight the same? If I had to guess I would go with a mule, but a burro is a little more surefooted. ;-)

I would love to know what its like to ride into the sunset while picking a Lands End.

[Mike Bunting]

Thanks for the correction, I had no idea there was the difference between a burro and a mule. I wonder if they can carry weight the same? If I had to guess I would go with a mule, but a burro is a little more surefooted. ;-)

I would love to know what its like to ride into the sunset while picking a Lands End.

The things we learn on this list!

[Mike Bunting]

Yes but...thin or thick? :disbelief::
Depends on what to-nail qualities you're looking for. :)

[Martin]

I just love reading these threads about folks that want to distress a mandolin and then see how many of you all get so upset about what somebody does to a piece of wood........ really quite entertaining:popcorn:

[300win]

You can make a horse go off the side of a mountain in the dark, you will not make a mule do that. Ok lets laugh, no matter if the finish is thick or thin on thier hooves, {sic ?}. Ok I'll admit I'm a dumb ol' country boy, aparently in the minority here on the cafe, I surrender to higher education, ya;kk know way more than I do. All of ya'll is right I reakon.

[catmandu2]

Well, that's what we do here -- roll up our sleeves and go to mule-rasslin over mandos. When the dust settles, its us erudite pedants (and purveyors of good taste) what prevails, by god!

[300win]

yea, whatever that means !

[Mike Bunting]

300win, that's all I'm tellin' you, I really do have a farm here in Alberta and have spent enough time pounding fence posts to know where you are coming from. I'm a country boy too, I wasn't mocking you. And I know about horses in the mountain, I worked with the Park wardens (rangers down your way) in Banff Nat'l Park in the Rocky Mtns on horseback. Those are serious mountains but I never rode a horse off one in the dark. :)

[Ronnie L]

I just bought a S/H 615 and Im trying to REMOVE distress marks! The bridge intonation was pure hearsay and now I have put it right there's varnish damage where it was.

[wogster]

I'm actually on the verge of shedding tears becuase of all those latin { is it?} words you're using. I respect your opinion, but I still think I'm right. Mandoin, guitars, banjos, fiddles, acoustic instruments are all made of wood, wood has to vibrate, the more room it has to vibrate the better the sound it will produce, a thick finish "holds" the wood tighter cutting down it's ability to vibrate, a thin finish is right the opposite, it ain't rocket science now is it ?

How about a thick finish that is more elastic versus a thinner finish that is more rigid. although really the application probably has as much to do with it as the finish material.

[Laird]

Hmm. 59 posts since the OP decided against any distressing...:popcorn:

I hope that doesn't mean we ought to stop having this discussion. The OP raised a question that soon led to a really intriguing discussion, and despite some of the less useful digressions along the way, I'm still hoping to hear more opinions about the effects of finish on the tone. I've read some really insightful contributions, but I haven't yet learned as much as I'd like to about a pretty important topic.

[man dough nollij]

Sure, keep it coming! :popcorn:

I remember a thread a while back about finish thickness. IIRC, John Hamlett said he made two identical instruments, one with super thin finish, and one with many coats. I think the verdict was that the thick finish didn't kill the tone.

[sunburst]

Well, no, that's an experiment I haven't tried. I've used different top woods, different back woods, and different finishes, but I haven't tried an overly thick finish, nor do I intend to.

[300win]

Well, no, that's an experiment I haven't tried. I've used different top woods, different back woods, and different finishes, but I haven't tried an overly thick finish, nor do I intend to.

Could you explain why John ? Do you not expect that a thick finish will dampen the tone vs, a thin fibish will not ?

[sunburst]

I have plenty of finish experience, experienced finishers can apply a thin finish, high quality finish. Why would I want to do otherwise?
Whether or not a thick finish damps "tone", there are many good physical reasons (like likelihood of chipping, checking, clouding, etc.) to keep the finish thin and even, so good finishers keep their finishes thin.

[man dough nollij]

Well, no, that's an experiment I haven't tried. I've used different top woods, different back woods, and different finishes, but I haven't tried an overly thick finish, nor do I intend to.

Sorry John, I must have been thinking of somebody else. I agree-- I'd hate to build two nice mandolins and paint one of them up like a hooker.

[Tim2723]

I would suggest that such an experiment would not work in the first place. A luthier, no matter his skill or experience, cannot make two mandolins that are absolutely identical. The results of such a test might be interesting, but could never be conclusive.

[OldSausage]

I would suggest that such an experiment would not work in the first place. A luthier, no matter his skill or experience, cannot make two mandolins that are absolutely identical. The results of such a test might be interesting, but could never be conclusive.

However, I think it would be conclusive if you had a mando with a thick finish that sounded terrible, and then you scraped off all the finish and it sounded great.

[allenhopkins]

However, I think it would be conclusive if you had a mando with a thick finish that sounded terrible, and then you scraped off all the finish and it sounded great.

Or, alternatively, if you dipped a $175K Loar in epoxy, then evaluated its tone pre- and post-...

Volunteers?

[sunburst]

A luthier, no matter his skill or experience, cannot make two mandolins that are absolutely identical.

Maybe not, but he/she can come darned close. I did it once and I know of others who have too.
As you say, it's not conclusive, but I built "twins" once; every piece of wood cut from the same piece, every measurement the same, even the stain and finish the same, as near identical as I was able to make them.
When they were done I couldn't tell them apart by the sound with someone playing them or with me playing them. Nobody who tried could reliably tell them apart by sound no mater who was playing them.

I've since done nearly the same thing but changed one thing (top wood or back wood) and have heard differences...but actually only slight differences.
So far, I haven't done it with varnish vs lacquer, or any other different finishes.