How much does the tailpiece matter?

[terzinator]

I had a Mid-Missouri M-2 that I replaced the old tailpiece on, with one of those nice chrome-plated Weber brass ones. No idea if it made any difference on that particular instrument, but it looked and felt better.

I now have a Kentucky 855, and the tailpiece is similar to the Mid-Mo... kinda cheapy looking, but probably perfectly fine.

So, is that one thing you do early on, to customize your mandolin? Replace the tailpiece? Does it make a difference in tone?

[JEStanek]

Some people feel that the cast tailpieces additional mass increases the sustain a bit. Many people weave leather or grommets into the strings behind the bridge to kill harmonics. I like the cast tailpieces from a string change or aesthetic point. I think you may bet a better tonal return per dollar by putting a better bridge that is properly fit onto your instrument. Look into some of the nice replacement bridges like Cumberland Acoustic. NFI.

Jamie

[man dough nollij]

I'm sceptical about there much of a tone improvement, but I agree that some of the sliding-cover ones look cheap. I have the cast ones on an Eastman and a Weber, and I'm not real wild about the function. You have to put little bends in your string loops, and wrangle them through little holes. And on the Eastman, the loops act like tight little nooses, and it's a chore to get 'em off when you change strings. I like the idea of the James TP a lot. I think I'll get one on my Mowry when Andrew builds it next year. You just hook the loops on there, and close the lid. Perfect.

[mandroid]

The ones from Bill James do reduce the string replacement PIA to a minimum,
the original ones on my '22 Gibby A's are OK, there are decent and less copies out there.

some Allen cast ones will take Ball end spare string borrowed from the guitar player in an emergency,
but you can crush balls and use the loop remaining, too.

[barney 59]

They are really important! Without one your strings would be all floppy like. Other than that, cool ones look cool and ones that don't look so cool aren't so cool but do the job. I've heard alot about heavy tailpieces vs lighter weight ones and have heard great mandolins with either kind and not so great with either kind. But silver or gold plate and some very fancy etching has got to lift the spirit a little of the person that owns it..

[Ivan Kelsall]

If you want a 'cast' tailpiece,then go for the best one on the market,an Allen.There's nothing to go wrong with them at all,no moving parts to jam or rattle or come loose.The string pins are easily accessible & the tailpieces look great.
I put one on a Michael Kelly Mandolin (my first instrument) & i did notice a significant increase in sustain,especially on the G string side.Tonally,i don't think the tailpiece design adds or subtracts from the sound,but when it comes to changing strings,the Allens are a breeze.No bending of the loops (a la Weber) to get them over the string pins is required. Simply push the string thro.the hole & place the loop over the pin - that's it. I used a small piece of Blu-Tak to keep the loop on the pin whilst i cut the strings to length & fixed them to the tuners,
Ivan

[Mike Bunting]

he loop over the pin - that's it. I used a small piece of Blu-Tak to keep the loop on the pin whilst i cut the strings to length & fixed them to the tuners
Great idea with the Blu-tak!
I like the James, too hard for my old eyes to hit that hole, it's like threading a needle.

[Soupy1957]

To "me" .........I figure the tailpiece is for holding the strings on, and nothing more. I'll use the one that's on there til it gives me grief, and THEN I'll replace it.

Lord knows there are enough elements to consider, ........the Strings, Armrests, Spider Webs (Tone Guards), strap, case, plectrum...........

If I'm gonna consider replacing the nut-n-bolt basics i want, like the nut, the tuners, the bridge, the tailpiece, the finish, the pick guard, the frets, ...... I might as well have one BUILT for me from scratch with all my preferred changes.

Not trying to pick on the OP here.........just being honest about how I approach the instrument from a construction point of view. Sure, I'll put postings in here that talk about changes, just to see what the "status Quo" is, but venture too far, and I could ruin the only mando I currently have.......and the wife would be VERY upset if I was to either have to, or want to, buy another one right now.

-Soupy1957

[Rob Gerety]

If it ain't broke don't fix it.
Every time I violate this rule I regret it.

[Gerry Cassidy]

I've been hmmm'ing & ha'ing over whether to change a tailpiece on one of my OM's since I've had it. I just don't see how the tailpiece plays that much of a role in the tone, or sustain of the instrument.

Can someone please explain the physics as far as how a heavier tailpiece would add to the sustain of an instrument? It seems to me that if you add mass/weight it would act to dampen string vibration, or the resonance factor of the body.

[JEStanek]

There are threads where Stephen Perry of Gianna Violins added mass to the headstock with modelling clay and reported increased sustain attributed to the increased mass. If the increased mass isn't restricting the sound plates then this could be the source. How, I don't know. I'm a microbiologist Jim not an matter-anti matter pysicist. I think Dr. Cohen has "weighed" in on this before.

Sustain is sometimes undesireable in some instruments... I still think your money is better spent for a tonal enhancement by replacing slippy tuners or getting your nut and bridge either upgraded or properly slotted and fit.

Jamie

[Gerry Cassidy]

I agree, Jamie. Other than aesthetics, and reducing the string change PIA factor, I don't see any other significant advantage to changing the tailpiece.

[AlanN]

Gilchrist came up with a neat innovation: a hinged tailpiece in the traditional style. He glues a flat of felt on the underside of the flip-top. Makes string changes a snap.

Trouble is: you need to buy a Gilchrist mandolin to get it!

[jimbob]

wouldn't change a tailpiece unless it was broken or had specific issue. If buliding I would certainly specify James. I really don't think it makes much difference in sound or tone, but the James is very nice for string changes and they look good , too !

[Dave Cohen]

People make claims all the time about "incredible sustain". Improvement in sustain is a claim that seems to have legs, but isn't based in reality.

First, "sustain" can't be measured reliably by counting seconds, or etc. It depends on the plucking force, ambient conditions such as humidity, temperature, room acoustics, etc. To get an indication of "sustain" independent of such external factors, one has to measure a characteristic decay time. Physicists define that as the amount of time it takes for the amplitude of a plucked note to drop from its maximum value to 1/e of that maximum (the number e = 2.718, and is the base of natural logarithms).

Second, decay times and "sustain" in plucked stringed instruments depend on three things. One is viscous or air damping, present in all strings. The second is internal damping, which depends on the composition of the string. Internal damping is most prominent in gut or nylon strings. The third is losses to other vibrating systems. That is, when the strings lose energy to motion of the body, neck, bridge, etc., they "decay" faster. The decay times are shorter, and there is less "sustain". Superficially, that would seem to make a good case for improving "sustain" by adding masses at the ends of the strings, since the strings won't lose as much energy to a larger mass with its' greater inertia. There are two major problems with that, though. One is that the larger masses attached to the body of the instruments will also require more energy to set the body of the instrument in motion. Hence, you will get marginally greater "sustain" at the expense of acoustic volume. The second problem is that the body of an instrument doesn't move at just any frequency. It vibrates at certain characteristic frequencies or eigenfrequencies. They do have bandwidth, but the peaks are pretty sharp. At those characteristic frequencies or modal frequencies, the body motion will "steal" energy from the strings, and hence they will decay faster, i.e., they will have less "sustain". That turns out to be dominant in plucked stringed instruments, including mandolins. I measured characteristic times in a couple of mandolins for each plucked note up to around the 12th fret of the E (1st) string. For the notes near body mode frequencies, the characteristic times were shorter by as much as a factor of 3x or 4x than the notes that were in between body mode frequencies. That was for an ff-hole type mandolin. For a Neapolitan, the results were even more dramatic. There is no way for a player to get around that without fooling himself/herself. The body of your mandolin and the type of mandolin dominate the "sustain" characteristics. Other factors are barely noticeable, if at all, when measured objectively.

http://www.Cohenmando.com

[Gerry Cassidy]

Thanks, Dave.

[KCrook]

I have Kentucky Model 805, and I was not a fan of the stock tailpiece, as it was hard to work with whe restringing the instrument, looked kinda cheap, and my arm rubbed on the finish to the point that I dulled the finish on it.

I heard there were benefits with an Allen tailpiece, so I added one to the Mando along with a Cumberland Ebony bridge to replace original rosewood bridge, and a set of Grover tuners.

The sound of the mando is now quite a bit different (in a good way), but it is hard to tell if that is due to the tailpiece. My money is that is more than likely due to new bridge. But, I like the way the mando sounds now as compared to when I bought it, and it looks alot better too.

Again - there are too many variables in my upgrade to tell if the tailpiece made a difference, but I am happy with it nonetheless.

[Marcus CA]

My money is that is more than likely due to new bridge.

I'd agree. The tailpiece has no contact with the vibrating part of a string, so lacking luthier experience, I would guess that its only impact on the tone of an instrument would come from its effect on the mass of the body. It can have an impact on a player, though, by how easy it makes changing strings.

If you're looking to upgrade the tone of an instrument, you'll probably get a more significant result by improving the bridge or putting on a bone nut if there currently is a plastic one. Some people also say that you can improve the tone of an instrument by practicing more, but I wouldn't know from experience. :grin:

[OldSausage]

It doesn't matter at all. Forget about the tailpiece, is my advice.

[sunburst]

Some people also say that you can improve the tone of an instrument by practicing more, but I wouldn't know from experience. :grin:

Ha! Me neither!
Yep, there it is in "black and white", if you want better tone, sustain, whatever, you have to practice. Practice takes time, effort, discipline, and dedication, however, while a tailpiece swap only takes money. It seems to me that many of the folks who second guess their luthier by trying to improve their instrument by "hot-rodding" with tailpieces, arm rests, pick guards etc. are trying to buy better tone rather than putting in the extra practice to become better players.

In the interest of full disclosure, I make mandolins and I make mandolin tailpieces. Hopefully, I'll soon have tailpieces for sale again soon, but I make no claim of improved sound from changing to one of my tailpieces, only easier string changes, improved appearance, and better overall mojo and karma in your mandolin life (though perhaps I'm biased...). ;)

[Ron Landis]

It doesn't matter at all. Forget about the tailpiece, is my advice.

I tend to agree. After shelling out about $75 for a nice cast piece, I really didn't notice any difference in volume, tone, or sustain. It does look nice though and it may hold up better over the long run over a stamped piece.

[allenhopkins]

If longevity's the main criterion, I have stamped tailpieces well over a century old that function as well as they ever did, I guess. I have noticed that the little tabs holding the string loops can tear off, so cast tabs or pins to hold the strings might be less fragile. Not a major advantage, IMHO.

The main reason I'd choose one tailpiece over another, would be ease in changing strings. I have banjo tailpieces that involve threading the string through a little hole, than making a bend in it just above the loop so it will go over the tailpiece's angle, and (I hope) stay hooked under the tab while I crank like hell on the tuning peg with my string winder.

Almost as much fun as those clever guitar bridge pins that you're sure you've seated, only to have them loosen and pop out when you put tension on the string. And of course, roll under a chair or behind the table, against the wall.

Did I mention the foolproof knots I tie in nylon guitar or ukulele strings, around the bridge just like Segovia recommended, only when I get the string near pitch, the knot loosens, and I have to unwind the string from the peg, try another knot, then another, then...

What about threading strings through a slotted headstock, trying to lock them around the tuner barrels? What about it? I said, WHAT ABOUT IT????

I need a guitar/banjo/mandolin/etc. tech to hand me a newly-strung, perfectly tuned instrument whenever I want to play. Yes I do. I mean, Clapton has one, why don't I? Call that fair?

[Ron Landis]

I agree Allen. A string tech is the way to go... I remember a group called Monroe Doctrine that played around the Denver/Boulder area back in the 70s. They played hard and broke strings often enough to warrant having a spare guitar or mando on hand. When one of them broke a string, they just traded it for a fully strung back-up and the guy (or actually I think it was a gal) would put on a new string and it get ready for the next trade-off. Of course, being a bluegrass band, I'm sure they were making the BIG bucks to pay someone to do this. ;-)

[Mike Bromley]

I put an Allen on. No change in tone that I could see, er, hear. String changing, on the other hand....

[Ivan Kelsall]

I firmly believe that lower quality instruments benefit more from up-graded hardware. Well all know that a decent bridge can make a real difference to even a relatively inexpensive instrument,& i suspect that the same goes for a good tailpiece.
I put an Allen on a Michael Kelly Mandolin & it DID increase the sustain quite a bit. Now,i've been playing & listening to my own instruments for over 40 years & i can tell when there's a difference or not,due to whatever i've changed,be it strings,bridge or as in this case,a tailpiece. BUT - it may not work on more expensive instruments to the same extent,i'll readily admit. But the big deal for the Allen is it's superb fuctionality - 'SIMPLY' the best IMHO,
Ivan

[GRW3]

Wow, this is complex actually. If the tailpiece has any significant effect on sustain I would expect that rigidity would be a bigger factor than mass. While determining this would quite a project my question would be - to what point? Sustain just doesn't seem to be as important to mando as say to the guitar.


I use a guitar capo to hold mando strings in place on the hooks while I deal with the tuning mechanism. I suspect it would work for a banjo too. Learned this trick here on the Cafe

[onassis]

I'd be interested in hearing whether or not not folks find cast tailpieces more comfortable. I've had a new-to-me mando for about a month now, and it's an enormous improvement over it's predecessor, both in tone and playability. The only downside I've experienced is that the tailpiece absolutely KILLS my forearm! Sometimes I begin to wonder if I've been cut! My other axe never did this. Anyone else experience this?

[mandroid]

Mitch, I overlaid my James with ebony ,
another player in town has a Sullivan , John did an overlay on a common sliding cover TP,
and of course there are always semi over the tailpiece armrests to buy.

in #6 , 2 Allens are shown , the one on the right I'd think be relatively, sharp edge free,
you could always get the plain bronze version of any Allen and file the edges rounder yourself.

Weber sells base metal tailpieces too, un plated , suitable for user pre installation, modifications,
bronze and stainless steel.
multiple choice..

[onassis]

Thanks, 'droid. I'd never considered an overlay. I've been thinking about an armrest for a while, but I'm a reluctant shopper, so I'm sure the research and decision-making phase will go on for a while.