Will I ruin the tone by installing a pickup?

[Laird]

Or, more accurately, will it spoil the tone of my Eastman 515 if I have an experienced luthier install one (while's he's setting it up anyway)? I don't even know how seriously I'm considering it, but I'm thinking of going the Mandovoodoo route and I noticed the option of having a pickup installed in the process. Can anyone here speak from experience about how the non-amplified tone has changed as a result of installing a pickup?

[mandroid]

... after extensive research, which pickup do you have in mind? :popcorn:

[Tim2723]

While, theoretically at least, any change we make can alter the tone, adding pickups can change things in a number of ways. A lot depends on the pickup.

If you're adding a lightweight transducer to the underside of the soundboard and running the wire out through the endpin, you'll probably not notice very much change at all. Indeed, changing strings or using a different pick can effect the tone much more.

If you're adding a piezo bridge and drilling a couple of holes for it, you'll see a greater change, but it might even be for the better. Some piezo bridges are actually better than those supplied with some mandolins, and the process of fitting it to the top can improve things as well, and sometimes dramatically. But, of course, the opposite can also be true. So it depends.

Of course, if you're doing major surgery like adding a preamplifier and power supply inside the instrument, bolting a magnetic pickup under the strings, attaching knobs and control panels while cutting whopping holes all over to accomplish it, the tone will change radically.

We really need to know more detail about your plan.

[Rob Gerety]

Or, you could just stick a Schertler Dyn on top when you are plugged and remove it when your playing acoustic. No worries about any impact on tone whatsoever.

[gregjones]

adding pickups can change things in a number of ways

Numero uno change would be that it changes an acoustic instrument into an electric instrument.

Electric and pregnant have a lot in common----either you are or you're not. There's no sorta pregnant and there's no sorta electric.

Just the simple opinion of an ill tempered, crusty old acoustic instrument lover who's closed mind can't be swayed on the subject.

[mandozilla]

YES! Why amplify? :mad: It's just more trouble...of course I'm coming from a Trad. BG point of view so please take no offense. :grin:

~o):mandosmiley:

[Tim2723]

Numero uno change would be that it changes an acoustic instrument into an electric instrument.

Electric and pregnant have a lot in common----either you are or you're not. There's no sorta pregnant and there's no sorta electric.

Just the simple opinion of an ill tempered, crusty old acoustic instrument lover who's closed mind can't be swayed on the subject.

Well, I would never attempt to sway the ill tempered, crusty, or closed-minded among us. But then again, the person asking the question obviously isn't those things, so I see no point to your contesting my statement.

Further, I see no sense in your comparison, as the most the change will make is to turn an acoustic mandolin into an acoustic-electric, whose amplified tone will almost certainly be very different than it's acoustic sound, which is generally understood. In any case, it doesn't become electric at all until you plug it in. I assumed the question meant "Will adding a pickup change the acoustic performance". Of course, the answer is 'maybe', depending on what's done, and that 'maybe' is partly defined by the player's ability to detect the change in the first place.

[gregjones]

I see no point to your contesting my statement.

Who contested anything?

You stated "adding pickups can change things in a number of ways".

I fully agreed and simply pointed out the manner in which it changes things the most.

I do dispute the term "acoustic-electric". No such thing exists. The only wires on an acoustic instrument span the gap between the end piece and the tuner pegs.

I have no problem with electric instruments, and am not a staunch supporter of acoustic instruments. I simply believe an instrument is one or the other.

Black/white, right/wrong---it doesn't mater to me. Just my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Maybe my mood will improve.:popcorn:

[Tim2723]

Well, OK then Greg. Sorry, I must have misinterpreted your comment.

I don't really understand your view on acoustic electrics. It's a conventional term, well accepted and constantly used in the music world. While its definition can be a bit fuzzy sometimes, it's generally agreed that an AE is essencially an acoustic instrument to which has been incorporated electronics that allow optional amplified play, as opposed to an electric instrument being one that depends on amplification to produce its primary sound and which would not normally be played without an amplifier, or an acoustic instrument that has no electronics incorporated.

More simply put, adding a transducer to an Eastman 515 doesn't turn it into a Mandocaster. But then again, just attaching a transducer may not make it a true acoustic-electric either. Conventional AE instruments generally have additional electronics built in as well.

Getting back to the question at hand, simply adding a transducer may have little noticable effect on the unamplified tonal characteristics of an acoustic mandolin. It depends on what's being done to the mandolin in the process. Once amplified, the tone will change. Whether that change is desireable or not is up to the player's discretion.

[allenhopkins]

You know, you can amplify an acoustic instrument by adding some sort of device to its body -- internal piezo transducer, piezo bridge, internal microphone, clip-on microphone, stick-on transducer -- up to and including a big honkin' magnetic pickup.

Or you can amplify an acoustic instrument by playing it into a microphone on a stand.

Either way, you've left the realm of "pure acoustic sound." Where you put the device that picks up the top's vibrations, should not be a theological or ideological question. There are advantages and disadvantages of various methods, but an "acoustic" instrument played into a microphone has ceased to be an "acoustic" instrument, as far as the audience is concerned.

Getting back to the OP, changes in tone are directly related to how much mass you add to the top's vibrating surface, where you add that mass, or how you modify the bridge which transmits the strings' vibrations to the top. Less mass, less modification, less change.

The use of "ruin" in your thread title, leads me to think you're approaching this with some trepidation. If you don't need to amplify your instrument in the near future, perhaps you should skip the pickup installation until you have a real requirement to play at a louder volume through an amplifier or PA.

[Tim2723]

Well said, Allen. All these terms and names exist simply to allow us to better make sense of a confusing world. We could split hairs even further and talk about every possible combination of things as seperate definitions, but as long as we know what it is we're getting in the end, it's all good.

[Patrick Gunning]

Greg, hate to burst your bubble, but Monroe and the boys playing through a single mic back in 1947 still had their acoustic sound turned into an electric signal and back again for amplification. Unless you're playing in your living room or in a symphony orchestra (although some instrumental soloists these days are miking up), it's an electric performance. Mics and pickups both do the same thing, turn sound waves into electricity, so amplifiers and speakers can turn them back again. There's no magic difference between one and the other in what each does, only what method is used to accomplish that task.

Laird, a non-invasive pickup installation probably won't change the tone that much. Getting a small piezo tacked on the underside probably won't be a big deal. And though you probably wouldn't tack a $500 Schertler on an Eastman, other tack-on pickups like the Baggs Radius exist for less. The in-bridge piezo ones seem to create the most tonal change in my book.

In general, the bigger the mass or the bigger the area of the pickup, the bigger the impact. The impact may not always be negative.

[Fretbear]

Unless you're playing in your living room or in a symphony orchestra, it's an electric performance. Mics and pickups both do the same thing, turn sound waves into electricity, so amplifiers and speakers can turn them back again. There's no magic difference between one and the other in what each does, only what method is used to accomplish that task.

This is your opinion, which you are entitled to; I could not disagree more. To imply that bluegrass and acoustic music played on exceptionally fine acoustic instruments, sometimes through superior microphones and more oftentimes through shabby sound reinforcement systems is the same as electric and picked-up music is neither fair nor accurate. People like Doyle Lawson, Norman Blake, David Grisman and Tony Rice have paid the sonic price their entire careers to distinguish themselves in the field of acoustic musical excellence, made possible by their dedication not only to their craft, but also to their insistence upon acoustic purity. Someone not liking the term or the practice does not diminish it in any way. When Bruce Springsteen opened the most recent Presidential inauguration concert playing his "acoustic" guitar, I was struck and somewhat shocked at how unmusical and tonally unappealing the obvious piezo-quack from his old Gibson guitar was, considering his profile, the historical importance of the event and the technology available. Acoustic and electric music are not the same things.

[Tim2723]

I think they are the same within the context of the discussion. I believe the point being made is that whenever we're listening to a loudspeaker, we're listening to an electronic reproduction of the acoustic sound. Certainly there are superb examples of fidelity and exceedingly poor ones, but they are all reproductions. Granted there can be reproductions so accurate as to be indistingushable from the original, but unless one is listening to wood and wire directly, it's always a reproduction by definition.

[250sc]

You should be able to put a pickup on your instrument and not change it's tone accoustically.

As to Gregs idea that putting a wire on an accoustic instrument makes it an electric instrument....I don't buy it. It's still an accoustic instrument. That function hasn't changed at all. If I use a piece of clothsline as a strap does my mando cease to be accoustic and become a cloths drier?

[foldedpath]

Numero uno change would be that it changes an acoustic instrument into an electric instrument.

Electric and pregnant have a lot in common----either you are or you're not. There's no sorta pregnant and there's no sorta electric.

Well, a clip-on mini condenser mic is the half-pregnant solution there. It's about 80% of the way towards the tone of an external microphone, and 100% away from the tone of any contact pickup mounted directly to the instrument. A little more prone to feedback than a pickup though.

I think it's a good solution if you don't play in a band where there's a lot of stage volume (i.e. drummer, electric guitar). And it can't change the tone of your instrument if you mount it right. For the OP -- check out the Audio Technica ATM Pro 35, ATM350, DPA 4099, K&K Silver bullet. There are some other threads here discussing those mics.


YES! Why amplify? :mad: It's just more trouble...of course I'm coming from a Trad. BG point of view so please take no offense. :grin:


Fooey... without the clip-on mic (or an external mic), my mandolin would never be heard in either band I'm in. One has a fiddler, the other has fiddle and banjo. Sometimes two fiddlers at once. And no, I'm not getting a resonator mandolin, although that would probably do the trick. :)

[Laird]

Thanks, folks, for your advice--and some really interesting discussions along the way! I didn't have any particular pickup in mind. I'm more at the stage of wondering, in theory, if this is even a move I'd consider. I play the mando raw in a bluegrass band (though we do use a condenser mic in larger settings) and I've tried to use a stick-on transducer in my other band (jammy folk, almost always miked), but have not had good luck with the stick-on-iness. That led me to my question: if I end up going with Mandovoodoo, does it make sense to consider asking Steve to put in a pickup? I do have to say I'm intrigued by the mention of a clip-on condenser mic.

I'm really enjoying the discussion about when an acoustic instrument becomes electric. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

[250sc]

If you're sending your instrument to Steve for his voodoo, ask him if he has worked with different amplification methods and if he has a favorite.

There are lots of variables with amplification. What works in one situation might not work in another. As long as you use some discression (Don't duct tape an SM58 to the top of your instrument) you're pickup choice shouldn't affect the sound or feel of your instrument when you play it accoustically.

[mandoscotia]

I have often wondered about this question. When is a mic not a mic? If the mic is inside the instrument, does it cease to be a mic? What if the external mic is so ###### that your beautiful Mid 20's Gibson sounds like plywood restaurant wall art? I don't know the anwer and would not presume, I think, to castigate personal preferences or "traditional" leanings. I will say this, in my experience:
It is harder for me to control my "break volume" and my "accompanyment volume" (let alone my "fill volume" or my "duet volume") when I am plugged in. People are able to do this, I know, but I can't seem to get the same effect as "one step back" from the mic, "half step back" from the mic, or "try hard not to make that stupid sound when you bump into the mic". I fyour sound guy/gal really knows your band, they could do this for you maybe, but for bluegrass I at least prefer controlling my own volume at the mic.

This is it though, we are all at the mercy of the sound enhancement people when we are playing gigs, unless the gig is for 10 people standing in a circle. Then we are at the mercy of the banjo
:-)

[mandoscotia]

Wow, I didn't think the word I wrote was a bad word. Think of carp, with the r and the a rearranged.

[woodwizard]

Or, you could just stick a Schertler Dyn on top when you are plugged and remove it when your playing acoustic. No worries about any impact on tone whatsoever.

That works! ... and is what I do when I plug up. Closest thing to an actual mic sound ...only you can move around & still be heard. :)

[mandroid]

I, too would recommend the Dyn M , you can swap it out onto anything with a soundboard.
No need to fit another pickup on any new purchase.

[Rob Gerety]

Don't make the mistake of thinking of the Dyn M as just another stick on transducer. The Dyn M is a completely different animal. Many folks here would agree I think that it produces the most natural acoustic tone of any other pick up available on the market today. Plus - it is 100% non-invasive and can be used on other mandos or your guitars and works really very very well. Its not cheap. But if you play through a PA it will sound terrific with no pre amps etc so you don't need a lot of other stuff. It takes about 2 minutes to remove from one instrument and attach to another. Just crank the treble up a bit on the mixer and your good. A pre amp is nice - but not necessary. If you are patient you should be able to find a good used one for about $300 - maybe even a little less in today's economy. Also, if you find a used Dyn G (guitar) go for it. That is what I use. It is for all practical purposes the exact same pick up. Sounds terrific.

[oldpicker]

Laird: I don't have a problem. I'm using a Shadow SH-2000 on my Breedlove Quartz FF, and have just ordered a L. R. Baggs Radius that's going to go on my Eastman 805D Two Point. I need a pickup to keep up with the banjo and violin. Works for me.

Gerry E. Benicia, CA

[Rob Gerety]

This is it though, we are all at the mercy of the sound enhancement people when we are playing gigs, ...
:-)
I just now beginning to realize how true this is. Drives me crazy. Its going to take me a while to get used to playing amplified live gigs. Right now I can't say I enjoy it very much. Its a lot more fun to play in my living room with friends.

[CES]

Definitely worth considering having Steve do it all at once (NFI), and I'd ask him particularly what he thinks works well without altering your unplugged tone significantly. If he says all of his options change it significantly, then another alternative lies in Tim's philosophy...get a Michael Kelley (or Fender, or whatever) with electronics already installed, and use that for your plugged in gigs. When you're plugged in, even with the best electronics, you never get "pure acoustic tone," though some of the newer stuff out there comes pretty darn close. If you're worried about screwing up the Eastman by adding the equipment (and I understand where you're coming from), just take it out of the equation altogether. AND, you might get a "beater" for just a little more than you'll spend on premium electronics.

Just a thought, and NFI in any of the above options.

[Tim2723]

There's nothing at all wrong with the idea of a pure acoustic, optimized for top perfromance with MandoVoodoo, and a second one for gigging, itself optimized for the task. Too often we try to make one tool do too many jobs, to our own detriment.