mando standing

[billkilpatrick]

while looking for origins of the charango, i see that the 4c. renaissance guitar could also have been "dad." along with the cittern and charango (canary island tiple too), it was dismissed as a low-life instrument that "any stable-boy" could play.

historically, socially...how was the mandolin viewed?

putting on airs (not) - bill

[vkioulaphides]

Well... it depends who you ask, Bill.

In Naples, southern Italy in general, and Sicily, the mandolin is as "apple-pie" as can be.

In industrialized, (relatively) progressive northern Italy, all things Neapolitan may be viewed as, ehm... somewhat... —how do I put this?— inelegant.

Quite au contraire, in Greece the mandolin was always (i.e. roughly from 1800 to 1920) considered as the most elegant of instruments, rather gentlemanly and urbane.

Then there are the Americas, with another gazillion divergent points of view.

And so on... I think that the answer you seek will come out rather kaleidoscopic, telling perhaps more about the eyes of the beholder than concretely about the beheld.

[billkilpatrick]

ho capito.

i was surprised to learn that the mandolin was once considered a ladies instrument. a quick shuffle through the site's vintage post card collection seems to indicate as much. the first mandolin player i ever heard was bill monroe...not what you would call "effeminate." it's difficult to guess the gender hidden behind the various "nom de tasstiera" contributing to the forum but i would guess there's more men than women.

my question was more centered on classical music and classical musicians than any other. i've heard (could be complete bollocks...) that certain sections of the orchestra never mix with others. is the mandolin even considered part of the orchestra?

curious - bill

[vkioulaphides]

On genders: Once again au contraire, in my background the mandolin was always an instrument that was played for the ladies, not by them: Imagine balconies with hanging magnolias, jasmine, and ivy; imagine starlit nights, groups of (generally young) dandified gentlemen with ridiculous, waxed, curly mustaches, playing mandolins and guitars and singing along. But, as above, this is just "local color", i.e. nothing more objective than that.

As for orchestral society... well, the mandolin is certainly a member of the plucked orchestra, although hardly so of the "regular", symphonic one. In my (limited and therefore biased) experience, the occasional mandolin part in the symphonic repertoire is more often than not played by someone who already is a member of the orchestra, e.g. a violinist, violist, etc. — even though I once did Don Giovanni with the TUBA player doing the Serenade! (He was, after all, a thoroughly capable guitarist and mandolinist on the side.) So, any issues of social acceptance are absorbed into the prior acquaintance of said orchestra member with his/her peers and colleagues.

[Eugene]

You should pick up The Early Mandolin by Tyler & Sparks and The Classical Mandolin by Sparks, bill.

[billkilpatrick]

quiche aside, REAL dilettante don't research - they affix themselves to people who do and drive 'em nuts.

[Eugene]

Well, I offered the references because they give an excellent historic cultural context to the mandolin wherever and whenever it appeared in numbers. #In essence, the mandolin enjoyed two periods of massive popularity. #The first fell in the second half of the 18th c., shortly after it first appeared, during which time characters like Hummel, Mozart, and Beethoven generated music for it. #The second was in the late 19th-early 20th c. #Even places like the Metropolitan Opera Co. had house mandolinists (de Pace). #While it found massive popularity in that second period, it really didn't manage to work its way into the art-music mainstream; only mandolin specialists (e.g., Calace, Munier, or Pettine) seemed to generate substantial repertoire for it, and where it was used by the composers who music students study in college (e.g., Verdi) it was only for color. #Its social role was regarded so differently in so many different places, it's hard to know where to begin addressing such stuff.

[Jim Garber]

I second Eugene's recommendations, tho it is difficult to find a copy of the Classsical Mandolin. I think it will be reprinted in paperback and out in october of this year.

Jim

[Eugene]

Given your interest in the origins of things, bill, I think you'd find The Early Mandolin particularly stimulating. #It addresses a great many of those plucked medieval things with a soprano voice and their relationship to what would become the mandolino.

[Jim Garber]

Here are a few copies for sale of The Early Mandolin (http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?ac=sl&st=sl&qi=kL6iMmYIsLbE3VXX6qColpmuxsc_7481516793_2:2:3).

Jim

[billkilpatrick]

okokok...

i can order it new from amazon uk for £21.00. used, in hardback, it's all mine for the low-low, knock down price of only...£204.00...!...!... i'll be in london next month so i'll probably pick it up then.

facts... hmmm...

they say life is change.

- bill

[Eugene]

In case any of you are shopping, I clicked on Jim's link to find "Sorry, searches expire an hour after they're run; please try your search again." You'll have to search again.

[Jim Garber]

Sorry, folks... I used Bookfinder.com and just did a search for the Early mandolin.

Jim

[Eugene]

i can order it new from amazon uk for £21.00. #used, in hardback, it's all mine for the low-low, knock down price of only...£204.00...!...!... #i'll be in london next month so i'll probably pick it up then.
...And, frankly, you're better off buying the paperback edition. There was a bit of editing subsequent to the hardcover.

[Jim Garber]

There seems to be a used copy of The Classical Mandolin available at a reasonable price at Amazon_UK (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/detail/offer-listing/-/0198162952/all/026-5095624-4466025).

Jim