$500-$1000 mandolin spec questions - from a first-timer

[balkmajm]

Greetings,

Well, here's my first post about buying my first mandolin. Exciting!

So I'm a relative newb looking for a decent F primarily for bluegrass. My price range is about $300-$800, which corresponds to what I've pretty much narrowed my choice down to: Rover RM-75, The Loar LM-500/Golden Age, LM-600, LM-700, or one of the Kentuckys: 630, 675, 700, 805, 855. I think these are all great-looking, and the ones I've been able to try out or hear are all great-sounding. I've got some questions about some of the different features on these, and whether or not they're worth the extra money to get.

First off I was wondering about polyester, oil, gloss, nitrocellulose lacquer etc. finishes. I'm told that especially for bluegrass what I really want is the lacquer since the punch/bark effect is dramatically better than a mandolin with a polyester finish. This is why I was cautioned away from the Michael Kellys. I've played on a MK and a Kentucky and I can notice a difference even with my novice ear, and I believe all the models I mentioned above have either glossy or nitrocellulose. Any advice?

Next, can anyone educate me on the difference between "solid", "solid handcarved", and "solid, handcarved, and accurately graduated" spruce tops, and between "solid", "solid handcarved", and "solid, handcarved, (highly) flamed" maple back and sides? Is there a big difference in sound quality or durability or anything, enough to warrant the extra $100+ in price? And also, what are tone bars?

Fretboard-wise, any advice on ebony vs. rosewood? I'm told this makes more of a difference with the bridge than the fretboard but I'm just curious what others might have to say. Also, I wonder what players' thoughts are on flat vs. radiused fingerboards. Is it just a matter of personal preference? And as far as extensions go, I've tried both scalloped and the Kentucky "modern extension" with no problems; has anyone had issues with 29 fret models getting in the way of picking?

Grover vs. Gotoh vs. other tuners? Anything I should know about?

I guess I have a pretty good feeling I'll be happy with whatever I get. I've looked a lot and have yet to find a negative review of the Rover, the Loars, or the Kentuckys. Maybe what it boils down to is are there any compelling reasons why I should consider paying a couple hundered dollars more when the Rover is cheapest and seems to have most of what I'm looking for? The only thing is I haven't played one (ain't too many dealers up here in NE Wisconsin...) or found a sample clip online. Does anybody know where else besides folk of the wood and youtube i might be able to find samples? That's kind of how I ruled out Morgan Monroe too.

Whew, sorry for the barrage. Please pardon my ignorance. :) Really, anything anyone could tell me about any of this would be a terrific help - thanks in advance - it's great to be here,

Jared

[Jim]

I have an RM 75 Rover and don't think you could go wrong with one, but , I've only played mine. I think solid hand carved is a good thing for a top and if it sounds good that is the only way you would know if it's "accurately graduated". Same goes for the back, flamed is pretty but not necessary for good sound. Tone bars are wooden braces glued to the underside of the top that help to spread the vibration of the strings throughout the top. Some mandolins have X bracing instead, some have none. As for a fret board extention the Rovers is scooped with no frets I'd rather just have it gone myself but haven't the guts to saw mine off. It's probably my poor picking technique that is the problem not the extension. I've played rosewood and ebony fretboards and really cant tell much difference. That's about all I know, good luck with your search.

[Jill McAuley]

Just saw that The Mandolin Store is doing a clearance deal on a Kentucky KM700, well within your price range (NFI by the way, it's just fun to have MAS for other people!). Here's the link:

www.themandolinstore.com/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=8940

Cheers,
Jill

[man dough nollij]

Next, can anyone educate me on the difference between "solid", "solid handcarved", and "solid, handcarved, and accurately graduated" spruce tops, and between "solid", "solid handcarved", and "solid, handcarved, (highly) flamed" maple back and sides? Is there a big difference in sound quality or durability or anything, enough to warrant the extra $100+ in price? And also, what are tone bars?




Welcome, Jared!

As you've noticed, we get a ton of threads like this. Yours is by far the best-researched and well-thought-out one I've read.

You are smart to learn the terminology about different woods. The bottom of the line ones might say "spruce top, maple back and sides". Unless they specifically say solid, it's almost certainly plywood, which is not good at all. The next level up will probably say something like "hardwood back and sides and solid spruce top". That one is probably all plywood except the top, which will indeed be solid spruce. It's good if you can find "all solid woods" in the description. I don't know how much I would care about the hand carved bit. I imagine all the pac-rim ones you are looking at have some hand carving involved. The "solid, handcarved, (highly) flamed" one sounds the most promising. At that price point I wouldn't worry so much about flamey woods and fancy stuff. It's all about tone. There are some out there that are really fancy looking (Morgan Monroe, Michael Kelly, etc.) that don't have too great of a reputation for good tone here on the Cafe.

Another possibility is "The Loar". There are some of these at the Mandolin Hut (http://www.mandolinhut.com/) at smokin' prices. I have never bought anything from them, so I can't vouch for their service. I have bought a few things from the Mandolin Store, and they are top notch guys.

Somebody will surely post this, so I'll get it out of the way. You will get much much more for your money with an A model. A BIG part of the labor in making an F model is carving and binding the scroll. I have an Eastman 505 (A body, ff holes, from the Mandolin Store) that I got for five hundred bucks. Seriously, I can count on one hand the number of mandolins under two grand that sound better than this'n (to me). Cue the Ham Sandwich order!

Happy shopping,

Lee

[Jim]

Almost 11 hours till someone said get an A , it's a better value. Has to be a record!
It's true though.

[allenhopkins]

I'm a relative newb looking for a decent F primarily for bluegrass.

Lee has already suggested an A-style as offering more bang for the buck. I'm the one who usually yells "ham sandwich!" when a responder tries to substitute (don't ask, it's a cliche I invented), but in that price range, not a really bad idea, IMHO.


First off I was wondering about polyester, oil, gloss, nitrocellulose lacquer etc. finishes. I'm told that especially for bluegrass what I really want is the lacquer since the punch/bark effect is dramatically better than a mandolin with a polyester finish.

From what I've learned, not so much the composition as the thickness of the finish; of course, the poly finishes can be applied in relatively thicker coats. If the mandolin looks "plastic coated," chances are the thickness of the finish will inhibit the vibration of the top. Few inexpensive mandolins will have multi-coat, hand-rubbed finishes in any case.


Next, can anyone educate me on the difference between "solid", "solid handcarved", and "solid, handcarved, and accurately graduated" spruce tops, and between "solid", "solid handcarved", and "solid, handcarved, (highly) flamed" maple back and sides?... And also, what are tone bars?

Lee has covered this well, from his lair at the South Pole. If it doesn't say "solid," it's plywood, nine times out of ten. Most mass-production mandolins use some form of automated carving, with hand finishing. If you have an arched, carved-looking top, but it doesn't say "carved," it could be "induced arch," which can mean heating the wood and forcing it into the arch. There are decent induced-arch mandolins, for sure, but you don't get the top "graduated" to different thicknesses in the same way as a carved top. Now, none of the mandolins you're considering will be a masterpiece of the luthier's art; you know that already. So you can't expect a great amount of hand-work in carving the top or back. And unless you're really into figured wood, the amount of "flame" or grain figure in the sides and back -- well, you can't hear that, or feel it when you play. In that price range, not too relevant.


Fretboard-wise, any advice on ebony vs. rosewood? I'm told this makes more of a difference with the bridge than the fretboard but I'm just curious what others might have to say. Also, I wonder what players' thoughts are on flat vs. radiused fingerboards. Is it just a matter of personal preference? And as far as extensions go...has anyone had issues with 29 fret models getting in the way of picking?

Ebony is harder and denser than rosewood, so it wears better as a fretboard and transmits vibrations better as a bridge. It's also more expensive. Some inexpensive instruments have fretboards of other woods (maple, e.g.) which have been "ebonized" -- i.e., stained black. Radius vs. flat is indeed a matter of preference, and you can find posts by players who prefer one or the other. And yes, some people keep running their picks into the "Florida" fretboard extension; some go so far as to either de-fret and scallop, or totally remove it.


Grover vs. Gotoh vs. other tuners? Anything I should know about?

You might try searching prior threads on this subject. My personal experience is that almost all tuners work well enough to permit accurate tuning of the mandolin. Since looking for an instrument that "stays in tune" when played is basically a fool's errand -- hey, you play 'em, they go out of tune, you re-tune them -- that's why they put those little pegs at the end of the neck -- I don't think, barring the very unusual defective tuner, that you'll find a lot of difference.

So there's a barrage of opinions in return. The major point I'd like to make is that, if at all possible, it's 'way better to pick from instruments you actually have tried, rather than relying on specs, descriptions, sound clips and even our quasi-intelligent recommendations. There are variables like neck shape, fret size -- even esthetics such as finish color, binding, etc. -- that will affect your satisfaction. I realize you're not located in a dealer-rich area, and tying up a couple of days to travel and make a $300-800 purchase may not make economic sense. But were I in your shoes,* I'd at least make an effort to visit a place where you could try a selection, and pick a favorite from among the instruments in stock. At least, if you have to order from a distant vendor, try to get the person to play a few mandolins over the phone for you, and get an approval period to try the instrument out. Good luck and I think you have identified some very plausible alternatives in your search.

*Old Native American proverb: Never criticize a man until you've walked a mile in his moccasins. Then you can ream him out, because you'll be a mile away, and you'll have his shoes.

[Rob Brown]

You didn't mention Eastmans.. I got mine out the door for about 850 with a hard case. no regrets. just happy.

[Spencer]

Don't know where you're at in NE Wisconsin, but if you haven't been down to Madison to look, the Spruce Tree often has variety of mandolins in stock, you can check their website. If for some strange reason, you are headed to Detroit, stop by at Elderly in Lansing, MI on the way. They always have lots of mandolins of all kinds. I've spent a lot of time there.

Are you near Stevens Point, and do you know about Art Stevenson's open mike at the Northlands near Rosholt? He has a good bluegrass band.

Spencer (from SE Wisconsin )

[Flatlanderbilly]

Jared,

You're sort of in the same mode I was in recently, although I perhaps had slightly more clarity in my decision making process having had extensive experiences with buying guitars.

First thing I would tell you is to look for a used instrument. Not only has someone else taken the instant depreciation hit, but a used instrument has usually been gone over by the previous owner to address setup problems. Also, if it's been played regularly it will have a better sound than a brand new instrument.

Second, although you didn't state whether you play another instrument already - such as guitar - give some serious thought to the width of the fretboard as measured at the nut. I came to the mandolin from playing parlor guitars with a 1 3/4" to 1 7/8" nut width, and it was a real shock at first to play a mando neck that measures 1 1/8". I've gotten used to it very quickly, but would actually prefer a 1 3/16" nut width. Best thing to do is at least try out a mando somewhere, even if you're not interested in it, just to see if that "standard" 1 1/8" nut width will work for you.

As far as all the other stuff you mentioned, my mind was pretty clear about a few things: I knew I wanted an American made instrument. I knew I wanted all solid wood. I knew I wanted something aesthetically simple. And I knew I wanted an ebony fretboard (just prefer them over rosewood). These factors led me to an A-style, used Mid-Missouri M11 that was posted in the classifieds here a couple weeks ago. I'm very happy with this instrument and it came in WELL under the $500 low end price you mentioned.

I sometimes see Mid-Mo mandolins on ebay going for $300 to $450. I think it's worth looking for one. (Sidenote: Mid-Mo's are no longer made. They've reorganized and are now in business as "Big Muddy Mandolins.") Another inexpensive independent builder I came across is Gypsy Mandolins in Arizona. Also, just today I saw a pretty inexpensive handmade two-point mandolin for sale at Hill Country Stringworks (.com)

I understand the allure of those Chinese-built mandos, as I have two Chinese-made Republic resonator guitars myself. However, my preference is to buy American made instruments. These hold their value far better than any import, and you can feel good about not contributing to China's ever-growing ownership of the USA.

I think it's a given that your best bang for the buck is an A-style, and the question you'll have to answer is whether you want one with F-holes or an oval hole. I don't know enough about mandos to adequately articulate the difference in tone, but if your heart is set on playing strictly bluegrass you'll probably want the F-hole body style.

Good luck with your search!

-Joe

[EdHanrahan]

... Radius vs. flat is indeed a matter of preference ... variables like neck shape, fret size ... visit a place where you could try a selection ...

With all due respect to your fine analysis of the specs, the feel of the neck is not easily speced out, and is not something you'll grasp until you've tried a variety. Maybe you'll prefer wide vs. narrow, or deep vs. shallow, or rounded back vs. V-shaped, or flat fretboard vs. radiused, or tall frets vs. small. Or MAYBE you'll be adaptable to any or all, with no real preference! But you won't know until you've tried 'em, and played them for more than a few seconds.

My other advice: Don't set out to buy "the only and most excellent mandolin that you'll ever need or want", because your preferences will evolve as your skill does. Besides, we all need a beater to leave out and readily available, to not worry about rain at the picnic, to throw in the car "just in case". Maybe another to leave at work, or at the in-law's house. And another to ...

[acousticphd]

A lot of good questions as a first-time shopper, and good answers above. Based on what you've said you're looking for, my input would be:

1) I do think you will get something significantly better by spending closer to your max ($800). Being prepared to spend in that range ($700-$800 vs. $400) already puts you a level or two above where a lot of us start out. Some of the features you will get in the higher end of that range may not be immediately appreciated, like better/bigger frets, bone vs. plastic nut, better initial setup, ebony vs. rosewood, better tuners, etc, as opposed to an obvious difference in sound. My advice would be to steer toward the mid-level, all-solid Kentucky models (675 or higher), or an Eastman 515, or similar. If it came down to 2 brands, I would lean toward a wider, radiused fingerboard if that is an option. I haven't personally been too fond of the couple of Rover instruments I've checked out, but that could just be me. I like the look of the Loar line, but haven't played any of them.

We all know bluegrass is associated with F-style mandolins. But keep in mind that F's really do not tend to sound better than A's made to otherwise equal quality. So, if you're asking us the question "is it worth it to pay $100-$200 more" for this or that feature in an F-style, it might pay to ask the same about F vs. A-style.

2) If you can be patient and buy slightly used, you can move up a notch on in models or quality level. That could mean all-solid vs. just a solid top, or a nicer finish (thinner, or better looking); better/nicer looking tuner and tailpiece, etc. Or you could use the savings for a couple accessories.

[balkmajm]

First, thank you all so much for so many informative replies so fast! This is really a great place. So I ended up going with a "used" (18mo. old but rarely played) Kentucky 855 for 725 incl case and shipping. I had it narrowed down to that or a used Eastman 515 or 615 (in spite of all the A-model recommendations... :) surely I can't be the first to pass this advice up). I liked the sound of both about the same (= a lot), and the reviews here seemed to lean towards Eastman (btw, does anyone else even own a Kentucky 855? I couldn't find much info at all in the forums). But then I talked to Gary at Henri's Music here in Appleton (sidebar: I just found out from him that he did the banjo theme music for Menards commercials, if you're familiar), and he corroborated what I'd heard elsewhere: Eastmans aren't quite as consistent as KYs, and also the tone bar under the bridge is bigger/thicker w/ the Eastman and it can sort of dampen the sound. Anyone else heard about this? Anyway, in the end it seemed like a used Eastman might be a bit more of a gamble when I couldn't play the instrument myself beforehand. And the KY's got everything I want and boy it's purty... just couldn't pass it up. I should be getting it early next week; I didn't know time could move so slowly... :)

Couple quick questions: how are the Kentucky tailpieces? Any issues/should I consider upgrading? Also, I think it's got a leather insert under the tailpiece - is that there to prevent those overtones? So I wouldn't need grommets then, right? And one last semi-related question: Gary also told me that the Eastman 915s used to all be made by just one guy. Is that still the case? Just curious. (am I having MAS right now? i'm not even sure what that stands for, but I think I have it...)

Next step: finding a teacher. Say, Spencer, any suggestions for me? btw, I'm up in Appleton. Don't get a chance to go to Point that often, but I think I might now. Thanks for the tip! There's also a little group here in Appleton called the Green Apple Folk Music Society. I've been meaning to get back in touch with them; good people...

If anyone's interested, I'd be happy to report back once it arrives and I spend some time with it. Thanks again everyone for all your help and insight.

Jared

[Steve Ostrander]

Assuming you are looking for a BG mando. If not then disregard this post.

I've been playing for about 2.5 years so I'm no expert, but I've learned by trial and error. One of the best mandos I've bought (out of 6 or 7) is the Kentucky km505 I just recently acquired. It is also one of the less expensive. At less than $500, it's a terrific deal and a good sounding mando--better than some I bought that cost almost 2x as much. My Collings MT is a little woodier, maybe a little better chop, and it cost 4x as much, but the volume and chop I'm getting from the km505 is excellent.

Also, I highly recommend The Mandolin Store. You can't go wrong, but if you do, they will make it right. (NFI)

[Rob Gerety]

Jared,

First thing I would tell you is to look for a used instrument.
-Joe

I agree with this - I started out buying new stuff and quickly realized that I was taking a beating every time I sold or traded. Plus, there are a LOT of used instruments in excellent condition on the market and the prices are real good right now.

Sounds like you made a great decision. Enjoy.

By the way - I must say I do not personally agree with the opinion you got comparing Eastman to Kentucky. But, that is what makes the world go around. You got a great instrument.

[EdHanrahan]

... Gary also told me that the Eastman 915s used to all be made by just one guy...

An Eastman 915 was the first, uhmm, truly thrilling mandolin that I played, and still the cheapest (around $2,200 at Rudy's Music Stop in NYC last summer). Sure was pretty: bright maple binding on a reddish-brown sunburst. If it was made by one guy, he did a great job!

[Capt. E]

Personally I prefer Kentucky over Eastman in most cases. I think you'll be pleased with your 855. Enjoy playing and when you are ready for a better instrument look at Weber, Collings, etc., but who knows, maybe you will want something even higher up the mandolin ladder. Then again, the Kentucky may end up being all you ever need.

[GTG]

I had it narrowed down to that or a used Eastman 515 or 615 (in spite of all the A-model recommendations... :) surely I can't be the first to pass this advice up).

Heh heh. Welcome to the cafe, Jared!


(am I having MAS right now? i'm not even sure what that stands for, but I think I have it...)


Oh, yeah, we caught another one!

[Jim D]

Jared,

I'm from Southwest Iowa but leave for Appleton Thursday for my annual Wisconsin vacation. Do get in touch with the Green Apple folks. A great bunch of people. Their annual camp out will be in a couple of weeks; the 21st, 22nd, 23rd. Lots of good pickin'. Last year there were five or six mandolin players that showed up. With all the people that come to the event I'm guessing someone can point you in the direction of a teacher. I'll be relocating to Appleton in four years, five months and a few days.....but who's counting?

Hope to see you at the campout and if you come do plan on camping.

jim d

[leathermarshmallow]

I haven't seen mentioned on here the JBovier mandolins. They are great and will fit in the price range you are referring to. I have had one for about 1 1/2 years now and it is a fine instrument.

[Jason Kindall]

Buy what you fall in love with and play the snot out of what you buy.

I second the JBovier. I sure like mine. :cool:

[CES]

Hope your 855 arrives as advertised and to your liking!! If the leather dampens the overtones well, no need for grommets. My 675 sounds great; no issues with the tailpiece, though it's not a heavy cast model. An upgrade may make a difference, but if yours sounds good and is functional, is not a necessary option to pursue...

[onassis]

It seems nobody's addressed this yet, so I'll say it: Don't bother with the tailpiece. The only reasons to change one are aesthetics or to ease string changes. And sometimes the cool ones are even HARDER to change strings on. Anyhoo, they don't affect the tone in any appreciable way.