PDA

View Full Version : I'll NEVER get here.........



Soupy1957
Jul-03-2009, 6:51am
Awe man..........doggone it.........I'll NEVER get to THIS level!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyUzlzECxDk&feature=PlayList&p=3274A399932C6491&index=0&playnext=1

How ANYBODY can move their fingers THAT fast, is beyond me!!

fredfrank
Jul-03-2009, 7:56am
I have always thought that most tunes have a certain speed where they should be played. Seems like the whole character of the tune is altered when one gets outside that speed. When someone plays stuff like this as fast as they are, I find myself listening for signs of an impending train wreck, rather than hearing the music.

Gold Rush is another tune that many people play too fast. It kinda destroys the groove, if ya know what I mean.

I could go on, but I need more coffee.

~o)

AlanN
Jul-03-2009, 8:07am
Guitar man is good.

I'm bored already.

Fretbear
Jul-03-2009, 8:09am
That guitar player's technique is staggering by anyone's measure...

OldSausage
Jul-03-2009, 8:57am
Awe man..........doggone it.........I'll NEVER get to THIS level!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyUzlzECxDk&feature=PlayList&p=3274A399932C6491&index=0&playnext=1

How ANYBODY can move their fingers THAT fast, is beyond me!!

You could do it Soupy, you would just have to practice as much as that guy has, and play regularly with other pickers who play at those speeds.

KyleBerry
Jul-03-2009, 9:15am
Don't say never Soupy. Practice, practice, practice!

JeffD
Jul-03-2009, 9:42am
Very fast mandolin. But I could still recognize the tune, so it wasn't fast enough. :))

Soupy there is a lot of beautiful music to be made before you get there.

catmandu2
Jul-03-2009, 11:31am
Tough crowd here. I'm not much of a bluegrass aficionado, but this holds my interest. And as Jeff D. said, Soupy -- there's lots of music to be made without having to play at "bluegrass" speed: everything besides bluegrass...;) Enjoy.

Soupy1957
Jul-03-2009, 11:49am
I considered Blues, and other forms, because the tendency of some to want to play stuff super fast is discouraging. I know I should never say "never" (since that is self-defeating), but I wanted to be honest about the feeling that the "fast" stuff gives me.

If I had started on the mandolin with earnest at the age of 8, I suppose I'd be there, but the question really is,.........do I WANT to be there.

I "want" to be accurate; I want to be able to play a song from start to finish; I want to be able to play chop or lead at will; I want to play the "old songs" of the mountains; I want to never be soooo good and fast that I forget to be a bit more laid back and enjoy the playing.

I've come quite a way already, since I decided to be serious about my learning, and ya'll are correct when you say that "practice, practice, practice," is the only way to get there.

"The lawn don't get mowed by looking at it," as I was once told.

Austin Koerner
Jul-03-2009, 12:10pm
Fast does not equal good. Learning to play fast is not really that hard, there isn't really much thinking involved. It's just playing something you know at a faster speed. Learning to play fast is wayyyy easier than learning to improvise well, or making a ballad sound smooth and soulful.

JeffD
Jul-03-2009, 12:27pm
I

I've come quite a way already, since I decided to be serious about my learning, and ya'll are correct when you say that "practice, practice, practice," is the only way to get there.

".

Yes but.

I heard an interview with one of the pantheon, Chris Thile, where he that it is very important to have a concrete idea of how you want to sound, and practice towards that idea. (He said it better.) He explained that one could waste a lot of time on "general pratice" and get no closer to the sound you want.

Just a thought.

Alex Orr
Jul-03-2009, 4:42pm
I like the guitar playing better. The mando playing is really sloppy. They should slow it down so he can give it some groove and not flub so many notes.

Jim Broyles
Jul-03-2009, 4:47pm
Why not? This version is okay but no real great shakes and there really isn't anything particularly difficult about it on either guitar or mandolin. Practice. I know you are musical enough to get it.

Mike Bunting
Jul-03-2009, 7:58pm
Timing was not so good, and I didn't hear much of a groove.

allenhopkins
Jul-03-2009, 8:50pm
Quoted this many times, but:

Frank Proffitt on Earl Scruggs --"I'd like to be able to play like that, and then not do it."

Ivan Kelsall
Jul-04-2009, 12:01am
Soupy - Don't fall into the same trap that i fell into years back as a young ( i WAS young once !!),
Banjo player. I thought that speed was IT !. Bill Monroe himself put me right on that when i met him in 1966 over here in the UK. I asked him a musically naive & ignorant question about who his 'fastest' Banjo player had been. I don't remember who he said,but i've alwys remembered his remark - "Son,you go too fast,you don't see much scenery". Even then for a number of years,i was too dumb to understand fully what he meant. Since then,as we all possibly have,i've heard tunes played so fast that the tune itself just disappeared. On both Banjo & even on Mandolin (after a good 'warm-up') i can play very fast if i need to,i just don't care to play that way. These days i'm firmly in the Bill Monroe 'scenery' camp. Nice,mid-tempo tunes that i can really dig deeply into & add my own musical ideas & phrases does it for me every time - ultimately,'melody is all' in my playing,at least i try hard for it to be that way,
Ivan;)

kristallyn
Jul-04-2009, 2:40am
soupy, every week there is something I start practising that I think of as IMPOSSIBLE..I ll never be able to this,..( and ofcourse those are simple things as I am an absolute beginner) but every week I get it down..
and looking back playing whatever it was I practised, I think to myself..well that wasn t so hard after all..

but yesterday my eyes were opened, I teach a 12 year old girl to play guitar. she comes to my house every week and I teach her chords, and strumming, ..maybe some picking one day.
everytime I try to find something really easy to teach her, so I tried to teach her to play a song ..with only a D and A7 in it..those chords are not that difficult..but she s been struggling to play them for two weeks now, it is hard for her to place her fingers right, and to push down the strings ( on a very low action nylon string I borrowed her) and to strum, and to change from chord to chord..
and I KNOW she has a musical talent, she can sing beautifully,..and has a good ear, and is determined she wants to learn to play
she will learn it..but ..all of a sudden I thought to myself..I m not so bad n the guitar, I usually look at myself as a not-so-vey-good guitarist..I may be mediocre..but..I can play pretty good looking through a beginners eyes..

so that gave me some courage on the mandolin, I thought to myself as long as I am determined to learn, practise this every day, not focusing on the speed right now ..one day my fingers will know what to do and will start doing it faster

anyway, I think speed is a bit overrated! I am glad to say that at least I know how to make tone..my fingers can find their way through many songs very nicely allready..and some songs really don t sound better when you play them faster

( maybe.. I m just saying it because I can t play fast either LOL but it comforts me hahaha)

TEE
Jul-05-2009, 1:48am
Quoted this many times, but:

Frank Proffitt on Earl Scruggs --"I'd like to be able to play like that, and then not do it."

I guess this is supposed to be a clever qoute but it always comes off as someone disrespecting someone else because they have a different style.

As the younger generation would say, "As If " also comes to mind.

Ivan Kelsall
Jul-05-2009, 2:23am
TEE - I really don't think that Frank Profit was being disrespectful. I feel EXACTLY the same way about the playing of Chris Thile. That guy is MONUMENTAL in his technique (so are a few other players),i just don't like the musical 'style' of the stuff he does. I would simply love to be able to play EXACTLY like CT,but then use that technique in my own way. The fact that CT's musical style doesn't suit me,isn't disrespectful,it's purely a reflection of our differing tastes. As a musician of incredible prowess,i respect CT as much as anybody on the planet,
Ivan

Daci
Jul-05-2009, 6:58am
I like the guitar playing better. The mando playing is really sloppy. They should slow it down so he can give it some groove and not flub so many notes.

I agree...Fast does not = fantastic.
Many a song is ruined by people playing as fast as they can. I'm not impressed with his playing,I'm annoyed. ..IMHO this dude has totally trashed one of my favorite fiddle tunes here.
I ran a dulcimer club for several years and we'd sometimes get guitar players in who tried to impress us with how fast they could play without listening to what the rest of us were doing. We were not amused.
I hope you never get there cause if you do,most groups are not going to want to jam with you.

Phil Goodson
Jul-05-2009, 7:27am
Soup,
I know a couple of the folks in the video. Dorian (on guitar) is about 19 years old. When I met him 2-3 years ago, he couldn't play as fast and clean as in the video. He's a young talented guy who loves to play and is developing his chops and is proud of it. He plays mandolin about as well as guitar.

I'm proud of him too. I expect once youth falls behind and speed becomes less important (as hormone levels drop, ha) the groove, the subtlety, the artistry will emerge.
We all want to go through our cowboy stage till we're able to buy the ranch.
Keep plugging away, Soup. We're all on the same trail.:mandosmiley:

Bernie Daniel
Jul-05-2009, 9:01am
Kristallyn: soupy, every week there is something I start practising that I think of as IMPOSSIBLE..I ll never be able to this,..( and ofcourse those are simple things as I am an absolute beginner) but every week I get it down..
and looking back playing whatever it was I practised, I think to myself..well that wasn t so hard after all..


Actually that is a pretty neat idea. Pick out something you think is impossible and prove that it is not. Not sure I would do it every week but the idea is a good one to do on some kind of regular basis.

But your general point is well take -- I thought Jerusalem Ridge was an "impossible" tune -- something I would not play -- but now I can play something that would cause many to say --

"Hey look at that guy he is trying to play Jerusalem Ridge on the mandolin!"

allenhopkins
Jul-05-2009, 11:59am
I guess this is supposed to be a clever qoute but it always comes off as someone disrespecting someone else because they have a different style.

Doubt Frank was "disrespecting" Scruggs. He very much admired Earl's technical skill on the banjo ("I'd like to be able to play like that"), but hot-licks bluegrass playing was far from what Proffitt was trying to do on his homemade fretless instruments. His roots were in the traditional music of North Carolina -- as, in fact, Scrugg's were too -- but Proffitt was a preserver of the older music, which is why he was such a valuable source for song collectors like Frank Warner. I suppose I don't need to remind Cafe-ers that Proffitt was the source for Tom Dooley, as well as many many other traditional songs. He was also a fine songwriter in the traditional style.

But I do think TEE has a point regarding taste. There is certain ambivalence towards those who play exceptionally loud, fast, etc. -- respect for the technique and skill, but questioning whether speed and volume are the main desiderata. The people who get the most respect are those who play with strong technique and mastery of their instrument and the style in which they play, but also show musicianship, respect for tradition, and musical taste. Arguing about taste is fruitless, but you can definitely bring forth disagreement regarding some of today's virtuosi.

kristallyn
Jul-06-2009, 1:17pm
But your general point is well take -- I thought Jerusalem Ridge was an "impossible" tune -- something I would not play -- but now I can play something that would cause many to say --

"Hey look at that guy he is trying to play Jerusalem Ridge on the mandolin!"


well at least they know what it was meant to be than:)):))
and you can allways answer by saying

hey folks DON T try this at home:grin:

mandozilla
Jul-07-2009, 6:54am
"Son,you go too fast,you don't see much scenery".

You gotta love Bill Monroe and he ought to know...after all it was/is his music.

Vomiting out endless strings of 8th notes at blazing speed is a youth thing and I think as they mature and learn about taste they move away from that a bit. If flash and speed are what attract kids to Bluegrass music then that's OK with me...someones' got to carry on the music.

I also believe that instrumentals were meant to be played, and sound best at the tempo the composer intended.

FAST definately has its place in Bluegrass music but by fast I don't mean as fast as is humanly possible.

My biggest personal mandolin playing issue has always been trying to play cleanly at fast tempos.

Having said that I gotta tell you that when you do get to the point where you can hang with the big dogs on a tune, at tempo, it can be quite exhilerating! :grin:

~o):mandosmiley:

Gerry Cassidy
Jul-07-2009, 7:27am
Fast does not equal good. Learning to play fast is not really that hard, there isn't really much thinking involved. It's just playing something you know at a faster speed. Learning to play fast is wayyyy easier than learning to improvise well, or making a ballad sound smooth and soulful.

I agree, wholeheartedly. Less can certainly be, and often is more...

mehrsam
Jul-07-2009, 10:22am
I understand Soupy's sentiment. I'm also awed by the technique of sheer speed, but only when it is done well. Fast and sloppy is..well, sloppy. I'd rather listen to a slow groove with beautiful phrasing and tone than a lightning-fast passage that is choppy and ear-grating.

I recall reading an interview with a world class guitarist-perhaps it was Eric Clapton-in Guitar Player magazine many years ago. The subject of playing fast came up and his comment was something along the lines of, "You can learn how to play fast, but will your Mother recognize you on the radio?"

SternART
Jul-07-2009, 10:39am
Interesting to note how Tony Rice has influenced the next generations of guitar players. That young fella has put in his hours to play like that.

Don Stiernberg
Jul-07-2009, 11:11am
I think the aspiration should be to finish the notes, or allow the notes to finish, so that musical phrases will be stated clearly and comprehended readily. Some players can do this at this at rapid tempi. Some think they can. All of us are just trying to continue making forward steps of musical development, and if you're playing continually and monitoring the results, you're most likely progressing toward your goals. A speedy player can be very intimidating and distract you from your own musical path. When that happens it might be best to return to what inspired you to play in the first place, look at how far you've come, and remember it's just you vs. you, not you vs. everyone who plays an instrument. Certainly other distractions will present themselves---maybe the other guy has a cool rig, or a better video, or a bigger paying gig. you'll still find that people want to hear YOUR musical statements, not certain tempos or approximations of other players signature licks, etc..

Take out the 1970's recording of J.D. Crowe playing Old Home Place. Set a metronome to it. How fast is that?? Not as fast as 9 out of ten jammers play it in the field nowadays. Does it have drive, soul, verve, vigor, presented with spirit and dispatch? Yes, tons--those guys finished the notes and even left spaces between them. A repeat of this procedure using Charlie Parker's Donna Lee yield similar results. Even Django Reinhardt didn't tear it up at the same rate his disciples of today do.

All that said, there are things to mandolinistically than help cultivate speedy playing. Play lighter. Keep your fingers real close to the fingerboard. practice phrases you want to play real fast SLOWLY at first to establish muscle memory and accuracy, then build things up gradually. Will you end up as Chris Thile? No, there already IS a Chris Thile...

As a teenager I naively asked Jethro Burns "can anyone play faster than you can?"He said, "I don't know, but I like to be able to play faster than everybody. That way I can sit in with anybody!" He then proceeded to suggest that one way to practice fast playing was to get everything established as accurate in a slow tempo first. Clean was always a higher priority than fast, and indeed at various tempi his notes sounded "carved out"--there was no mistaking what his musical ideas were.

One year at The Mandolin Symposium the great mandolinist Wayne Benson offered a phrase of summation which I think is pertinent here:

BE ENCOURAGED.

grassrootphilosopher
Jul-07-2009, 11:28am
The mandolin picker is Christoph Constantin from the french manouche/bluegrass group Acoustic River. Christoph is a good picker and the group does a fine manouche/bluegrass mix of music. Keep in mind that the European picking is flavoured differently. So picking fast (when you come from a manouche background) comes natural. Check them out here as well:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3eu6v_cherokee-shuffle-acoustic-river
Maybe the imbedding works...
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3eu6v_cherokee-shuffle-acoustic-river

Concerning speed... Itīs a matter of taste. I have heard music played too fast for my taste even by pros (Sally Goodin live by the Tony Rice group even). As long as itīs played spirited and with good timing itīs all a matter of taste.

So itīs not necessary to play fast just as long as youīre playing with timing and feeling.

Jkf_Alone
Jul-07-2009, 2:44pm
Soup,

I enjoyed the link, and feel your pain. Red haired boy was the first tune I hung in with at bluegrass tempo. About that speed too. playing the tune cleanly at that speed is not too difficult, but improvising freely at that speed is near impossible for me.

Martian
Jul-10-2009, 2:17pm
I think when I was first attracted to banjo I was probably first attracted by speed. Then I learned what drive is and it is no way a question of speed, and occasionally when I go back to recordings ,as a rule they are slower than I thought. It is one of my first tip-offs to a a novice - intermediate banjo player when he- she kicks it off too fast. Drive goes bye bye.And probably as that novice banjo player, I was guilty of the same thing, also thinking the older (cleaner pickers) had reached an age they could no longer pick that fast. Wrong. For ME to pick as clean as I can, with as much drive as I want, and be as creative as my little brain will allow me, the BPM's have to come down . Really not as important as I thought, and as a matter of fact, fast banjo players do not nearly impress me as one who is good on a slow song. Twice as hard. Fun post Soupu (OOPs) SOUPY. That is to show you I can:t type that fast either

Mike Bunting
Jul-10-2009, 2:55pm
I think that most of the perceptions of bluegrass speed is based on the misunderstanding of timing.
Blues guys play a little behind the beat and good grassers play dead or a tad before the beat and this gives the music the drive that is often confused with speed.