Thinking of defiling my 1923 F-4

[Jonathan Peck]

I'm considering having some modifications made to my 1923 F-4.

New fingerboard with a slight radius and new frets which should improve intonation and playability.

New bridge, nut and tuners.

These modifications are intended to improve playability, intonation and tuning without messing with the the mandolin too much. I'm pretty sure all the original parts can be removed and saved for posterity.

The bridge and tuners have some minor quirks/problems and the frets and nut have the typical 'Gibson' spacing/location' problem.

Should I just leave it alone?

Psssst....Gail, if your listening, this would be right up your alley.

[sgarrity]

I say go for it. These things are made to be played. Look at the number of Loars that have new fingerboards, scooped extensions, etc. Will it decrease the value in a collector's eyes if you sell it in the future? Maybe. But it may make it an even better buy for someone that wants it to PLAY!

[Jonathan Peck]

Hey Shaun,

The mando's in really good cared for shape, but I wouldn't exactly call it a collector's piece. It really has it in the tone department, ya' know, that aged pure fundamental with gobs of midrange....eh, I think you get it. Anyways, she's plenty playable as she is...I'm really on the fence on this one. Thanks for the push though;)

[JEStanek]

Save the original board, bridge and tuners (even the nut but I can't imagine that is a critical to collectors item). If you should ever have/want to sell the instrument you can include all of the original bits should the new owner want them all placed back on the mandolin. This minimizes the loss to only being a repaired F4 with original spec components vs modified F4.

It's silly to keep an old mandolin that won't perform in a manner you want it to even if you enjoy the instrument's tone and vibe. Modify away would be my mantra.

Jamie

[mrmando]

I'm with Jamie. Keeping the old parts means you can get your repairs done without hosing the collector value. It's a win/win.

[SternART]

Sounds like keeping the original parts.......putting a new board on etc, and it could be reversible.
I'd make the mando playable & give it another long run of making music. YMMV, just my opinion, but you asked, so........

[Mandobar]

sell it and buy what you are really looking for. go find one of those new collings oval hole MF5's to play. you might be happier with one, and the new MF is around 4500. you'd have enough left over for a calton or two.

[MikeEdgerton]

You have to look at it like you're the caretaker of this instrument for future generations, therefore you should make no modifications what-so-ever....

I'm just jivin' you, do whatever you want to. It's yours, personalize it for youself.

[mrmando]

Carve the logo out with a pocketknife, break the headstock scroll, then smash it with a poker and put it back together. It'll be worth a million bucks.

[Jonathan Peck]

You have to look at it like you're the caretaker of this instrument for future generations, therefore you should make no modifications what-so-ever....

I'm just jivin' you, do whatever you want to. It's yours, personalize it for youself.

You know, now that you mention it, I'd really like to change the name on the headstock to 'THE SKIPPY':grin:

Seriously, I'm kind of stuck on the caretaker for future generations bit.....

Thanks Sean, Jamie, Martin, Art, Mary, Mike et al for the quick replies.

[sgarrity]

Looks like we're all trying to avoid work on this Friday afternoon!

[Gail Hester]

Psssst....Jonathan, I sent you a PM.

[Jim Garber]

In this era of Gibson some of these fretboards were intonated improperly exp in the upper reaches. Bob Jones showed me this fact on a 24 F4. To be truly playable (sad to say) the fretboard would have to be recut in places anyway. What I am not so sure about is what the other things will do for you in terms of tone. Seems like a fair amount of work also, like $500-700 or more for the new fretboard, frets and setup.

Also, IMHO, this work, while increasing the value as a playing instrument would somewhat reduce the overall value as an original collectible instrument. if a collector wanted it he/she would have to spend a bunch of money undoing what was done regardless of whether you had the original parts. i esp wonder about the fretboard aspect.

Just my 2 cents. OTOH I am not sure if I wouldn't do it... more or less just thinking out loud.

[Gary Hedrick]

I think I remember seeing an article about this general topic and it quoted George Gruhn as saying that replacing things like a fretboard and frets etc wasn't a big deal in terms of a hit to the collectablity of an instrument. These items wear out over time. Nuts needs replacement also. It's when you rework items and customized them that the value suffers. Maintenance is maintenance and it is a fact of using an instrument.

I'd follow a Gail Hester's advice or someone like her that has done a bunch of F4 noodling and building and make the instrument a playing joy or else get rid of it and have her make you one.

I've owned over 10 F4's and several Loar era ones. Some of them don't intonate correctly and therefore are a pain to play.....

[Gail Hester]

Seriously, I'm kind of stuck on the caretaker for future generations bit.....


...that's a great point of view and I strive toward that goal however future generations don't want to play a mandolin that's out of tune either.:)

[BradKlein]

I think I remember seeing an article about this general topic and it quoted George Gruhn as saying that replacing things like a fretboard and frets etc wasn't a big deal in terms of a hit to the collectablity of an instrument. These items wear out over time. Nuts needs replacement also. It's when you rework items and customized them that the value suffers. Maintenance is maintenance and it is a fact of using an instrument.


What I remember Gruhn saying (writing) is that SOMEDAY collectors of American fretted instruments will have to accept that certain parts; frets, nuts, fingerboards, tuners, wear out with time. Just as the buyers of classical instruments have come to accept these sorts of 'modifications', and more, on older, often very valuable instruments. I'm not sure he was saying that buyers are at that point NOW.

That said, I don't think many, or any will seriously object to having quality work done on a vintage gibson, particularly a player's instrument.

[neal]

What you are considering is nothing compared to some things that could be done. Do it.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-10/854320/GMANGTOP.JPG

[MikeEdgerton]

I remember that mandolin.

[woodwizard]

I personally think any modifications to the original would lower the value. It would not be all original anymore therefore would not be a collector piece even if it made it a good player now.

[Gary Hedrick]

I agree with what you are saying Brad. The point with these instruments is that being over 80 years old, unless the instrument was stored in a closet, maintenance will need to be done. Long finger nails, string vibration, and friction will all take their toll on an instrument requireing efforts to maintain the playability.

I think that was really where George was going with that thought process.

[Mandobar]

actually a very well known luthier told me a story about the stick that they used to use to gauge the frets on the mandolin fretboards in the early 1920's at gibson. it had actually shrunk and no one bothered to check on it......hence the intonation problems.

[Mike Bunting]

You gonna play it or look at it? WWMD?

[Gail Hester]

actually a very well known luthier told me a story about the stick that they used to use to gauge the frets on the mandolin fretboards in the early 1920's at gibson. it had actually shrunk and no one bothered to check on it......hence the intonation problems.

Not all of them. This is what I have been told. They had a number of fretboard cutting machines and they were full length to cover all instruments. They used the section of the machine that they needed for the instrument they were working on at the time.

As I understand it, these machines had blades with the spacing controlled by numerous precision shims. When they took them out to clean and sharpen the blades they would sometimes get the shims wrong and induce error until someone checked and corrected it.

Many mandolin, mandola and mandocellos had fretboards that were cut very well. I have a 1924 F4 that is near perfect. As a routine I check all fretboards on the mandolins I work on and more often than not they are fine. The ones that are bad can make the mandolin unplayable unless you're wearing ear plugs.

[MikeEdgerton]

The story of the shims has been documented here before as well.

[jim_n_virginia]

I personally think any modifications to the original would lower the value. It would not be all original anymore therefore would not be a collector piece even if it made it a good player now.

If you save all the parts it wouldn't lower the value that much if any. If you sell it in the future and and the buyer wanted it original all they would have to do is put it back. A good luthier could put the old fretboard and parts back on and you would never know it was done.

It is not like replacing the top or refinishing the whole mandolin.

If I was going to keep this mandolin for a while and especially if I was going to play it a lot I would go for it myself!

It would still have all the mojo but just be playable thats all.

[Bernie Daniel]

Gary already made a very similar point.

Tuners eventually bind up and become unusable, bridges break, frets and fretboards wear as well.

If these were NOT replaced when they wore out we would we then have to either toss the mandolin into the trash or put it in a museum.

I believe Sam Bush has gone through many fretboards on his Hoss mandolin so I think your plan is prefectly reasonable.

IMO it is good to retain as much of the original appearence as possible. But who would ever see the fretboard radius?

I put a new pair of tuners on my F-2. I bought a new pair of Schallers, removed the white buttons, cut the shafts down to match the originals, and the epoxied on new ivoroid buttons. Seems to look OK and now I can tune it!

Go for it.

[j. condino]

Jonathan:

Checkout the last issue of mandolin Magazine. There is an article in it describing the same poor intonation issues and subsequent fingerboard replacement that I did a few months ago on a mint, but unplayable 1927 F4.

j.
www.condino.com

[j. condino]

There are a couple of old threads around here that describe how to replace the F2 machines with a set of Schallers using the original screw holes, rather than leaving the old battle scars and drilling more holes. I do this replacement all of the time with no new invasive modifications.

j.
www.condino.com

[Paul Hostetter]

They had a number of fretboard cutting machines and they were full length to cover all instruments.

They had one.

[mandroid]

the idea of maybe not getting the spacers back in the exact place again for accurate spacing,

after resharpening the saw-blades , in the gang saw jig to cut the fret slots did come up before .

Auto Biz has a 'send it to the dealer and let them sort it out' reflex,

perhaps that happens in music instrument mass production too ?

[Paul Hostetter]

Tuners eventually bind up and become unusable...
I've never seen a set of tuners from a better grade Gibson from that era that ever needed more than routine maintenance to work beautifully. I think about all the gorgeous old sets of gears that have been replaced by chrome-plated pearloid things that seldom look even slightly appropriate and wish I could gather them up and put them back on deserving old instruments. Actually, I've done that quite a bit, but I just can't keep up! :disbelief:

[Paul Hostetter]

the idea of maybe not getting the spacers back in the exact place again for accurate spacing, after resharpening the saw-blades, in the gang saw jig to cut the fret slots did come up before. Auto Biz has a 'send it to the dealer and let them sort it out' reflex, perhaps that happens in music instrument mass production too?

Gibson had an accuracy issue for many years because of the nature of that hoary old saw and how it was used and maintained. Martin wasn't much better, and the explanation that made sense to me there was their machine lost accuracy as it overheated. This could have been a factor in Gibson's rig as well. Imagine sitting there putting in a 8 hour day running pieces of ebony and rosewood through a machine to cut a supply of boards. I think it's all different now in the era of computer controlled parts production.

[MikeEdgerton]

...I think it's all different now in the era of computer controlled parts production.

You'd certainly hope it was :)

[Nick Triesch]

Years ago when I had an old 1963 356 Porsche I was having some work done in my favorite shop when a guy came in with a 1955 Porsche Speedster. He asked to have the original engine removed and wanted a Porsche 911 motor installed. The owner of the shop could just not bear doing this work to the "Holy Grail" of Porsches so he bought the car at great cost and the old owner bought a 911. My point is that a 1923 Gibson F4 or even a 1923 snakehead for that matter are the "Holy Grails" of the mandolin world. Please do not ruin it. Sell it to someone who will love it and play it just as it is. Nick

[pops1]

Years ago when I had an old 1963 356 Porsche I was having some work done in my favorite shop when a guy came in with a 1955 Porsche Speedster. He asked to have the original engine removed and wanted a Porsche 911 motor installed. The owner of the shop could just not bear doing this work to the "Holy Grail" of Porsches so he bought the car at great cost and the old owner bought a 911. My point is that a 1923 Gibson F4 or even a 1923 snakehead for that matter are the "Holy Grails" of the mandolin world. Please do not ruin it. Sell it to someone who will love it and play it just as it is. Nick

In the violin world (and there are some expensive violins out there) you can change any piece of black wood (ebony of course) tailpiece, saddle, pegs, nut, fingerboard and not diminish the value of your Strad or whatever as these are considered parts that need maintenance.

[Gail Hester]

I agree with your story about the Porsche but I don’t think it’s the same thing. A “Holly Grail” instrument has to have it all including playability. An instrument that was manufactured wrong so that it can never play in tune is of no use to anyone, player or collector.

If the instrument was mine, I would first check the slots, check the first fret distance and the bridge to make sure that a bad fretboard was the problem. If I determined that the fretboard slots were way off, I would remove the binding, replace the fretboard and then re-install the original binding. I would not worry about saving the original bad board. It certainly would not be defiling the instrument and most would not be able to tell anything been done to it. It would still be the “Holly Grail” but it would be appreciated much more and for years to come because it played in tune.

[j. condino]

I think the major point is that if you've got a a great historic instrument with 80 years of vintage mojo, a great sound and a great box, but a worthless fingerboard, then you've basically got an expensive wall hanger or funny shaped flower pot that no real player will use.

If someone wants to get past the flower pot and make it a great working instrument, there are very skilled luthiers available who can do the job in such a maner that will maintain the integrity of the instrument, keep all the original (and sonically inaccurate fingerboard) parts intact and hidden away in your climate contrilled vault for any future owner to reverse the process if they would rather have it be a historically accurate unplayable piece.

It takes a very skilled, patient hand to do this, but it is pretty managable. Find an original Staradivarius violin with the original neck intact- only a couple still exist, yet all the others do just fine on the vintage market.

Checkout the recent issue of Mandolin Magazine that I mentioned above. there is a detailed discussion of this exact modification as well as a comparison to what was reasonably common 20 years ago- taking your F4, hacking it up until there is only about 50% original parts, and then doing an "F5 conversion".

There are several top level pro mandolin players who have had the more moderate fingerboard removal change done to their Loar F5s. The right mechanic can also perform the same thing to your 356 Porsche- either maintain the original intention and integrity so that you can reverse it, or chop the daylights out of it so it looks like something on "Pimp My Ride" with no option for turning back.

I haven't owned a car in years, but now you are tempting me. I've got a mint F4- wanna trade for the 356?????

j.
www.condino.com

[mrmando]

The fretboard on an F4 is not analogous to the engine in a Porsche. It is analogous to the steering system. If your Porsche consistently pulled 15 degrees to the left, it would not be enjoyable or safe to drive. If you refused to have the steering fixed, the car would probably just end up on blocks in the garage.

[CES]

4 or 5 years ago I would have told you to avoid the repairs if possible, because it's just cool to have an all original 80 year old instrument, and particularly a Gibson from those years...I'm someone who tends to love my instruments (I've yet to sell any that I own, though I've got at least 2 I should get rid of to fund a better mando). Whenever I get ready to sell one of the "beaters" I think of good times, more of which are left in them, and almost always hold off.

But, as someone who's had progress slowed by playing instruments with poor action and intonation (it's really hard to get excited about practice when you know it's just gonna hurt and not sound right up the neck...no whimps here, though :) ), and someone who better understands now that the true value of an instrument lies in its ability to make music, I would now favor doing the functional changes you're considering, particularly if it means you'll play it more (and with more satisfaction/joy) and others will be able to enjoy it down the line...

Tough call, but I'go for it...just choose someone who knows what the heck they're doing (ie, a couple have chimed in here ;) )!!

PS: I don't know why the "thumbs down" showed up in the reply line...

[Kerry Krishna]

If you have an instrument that you think could use some work to make the owner happier ,go for it. Anyone who says 'Don't do it!" doe'snt own it, (but you should offer to sell it to them at an exorbitant price!) You DID ask on a public forum though. I would not have asked, just done it. If you own a string instrument, getting repairs done goes hand in hand with it.

[Nick Triesch]

I say leave it alone. Have a master setup guy fix it up for you I remember years ago Charlie Derrington said on a post that he would not even scoop the fretboard extention on a new Gibson Master model that was his. Some folks like it "stock". And worth more money at a later date if you must sell it for some reason. I'm just saying. Nick

[Paul Hostetter]

From the OP:


New fingerboard with a slight radius and new frets which should improve intonation and playability.

New frets, no problem! New board? There goes the authenticity and market value, but it's not a big deal. I just hope whoever does it can get the binding right. Most people don't.


New bridge, nut and tuners.

A new nut would go with a new board or a refret, anyway. It better be a pearl nut.

Why a new bridge?

But more importantly: why new tuners? So many people dismiss the originals in a really shallow, cavalier way when there's nothing really wrong with them other than needing simple maintenance (http://www.lutherie.net/tuner.maintenance.html).

As James Brown so succinctly put it: Think.

[Bill Halsey]

Amen.

[mrmando]

New frets, no problem! New board? There goes the authenticity and market value, but it's not a big deal. I just hope whoever does it can get the binding right. Most people don't.

Would you reslot the original board, then?

[billkilpatrick]

New fingerboard with a slight radius and new frets which should improve intonation and playability ... New bridge, nut and tuners ... Should I just leave it alone?

what you've got to do is make-a'hit'a-record ... that way your custom gibson will become as famous as you for what you both really are, on the inside.

guru is in - a gentle clearing of the throat will bring me round - bill

[Paul Hostetter]

Would you reslot the original board, then?

I've moved frets a bit, but I'd probably just replace it and do my best to make it appear as close to original as possible. Unfortunately, reusing ivoroid binding is a sketchy proposition, since it tends to shrink enough to never quite fit again, but I've saved old stuff and have gotten pretty good at welding extensions on, so even the binding is the same. Ebony and pearl are really cooperative by contrast.

FWIW, I have an A-4 and an F-4 and haven't messed with the fret spacing on either one. I've definitely been tempted, but the one I play most is the A-4 and it's so sweet and rich that the overtones swallow the intonation anomalies. I also just play it, and avoid going into hyper-listening mode.

[Bernie Daniel]

Paul Hostetter: But more importantly: why new tuners? So many people dismiss the originals in a really shallow, cavalier way when there's nothing really wrong with them other than needing simple maintenance.

I do not have the experience to debate the point in general and you may well be right in most cases.

However, the original tuners from my 1919 F-2 were made by Waverly (at least these were on therd when I bought it in 1972).

One of the worm gears on this set of tuners is shot -- period. I would be happy to mail it to you for an evaluation but I am sure your analysis would confirm what I already know -- for some reason large amount of metal has been ground away on one of the worm gears. As a result there is so much backlash and binding that it will not allow you to adjust pitch under tension without the aid of a pliers -- then when you get close to pitch it will likely slip and back off.

I have dismantled it totally--more than once -- it cleaned all parts in solvents with sonication -- and I have used every kind of lubricant I can find -- that worm gear is shot. :)

[Paul Hostetter]

Glad I didn't say "Everyone dismisses the originals," but I wouldn't mind having a look at them, if you'd care to send them out.

[mandozilla]

Jonathan
If you're a player then do your modifications and enjoy playing it. Don't sweat what it will or won't be worth down the road. You may get run over by a bus next month and then it won't make a rats rear end to you. :grin:

~o):popcorn:

[Elliot Luber]

If it was as valuable as a Loar F5, I would say treat it like a museum piece, but as it's probably worth a couple thousand depending on condition, treat it like the workhorse (hoss?) it was meant to be, and keep it playable within conservative reason. Saving the original parts is great advice Jamie.

[Nick Triesch]

Go ahead, change the whole mandolin.....but if I am ever in the market for a nice '23' F4 I will look for the most untouched example I can find in the best condition possible. And pay the price it's worth. I guess I am one of the few who thinks
that these old mandolins are also a great part of our instrument making history. Also, about value, I for one think a fine example Gibson F4 from the Loar era will be worth in the $20000 range in 10 years. I feel a good snake will be worth $10000. Don't you guys ever wath "Antique Road Show"? Nick

[Paul Hostetter]

I'm with ya, Nick.

[woodwizard]

I'm with ya, Nick.

Me too Nick.

[Bernie Daniel]

Nick Triesch: Go ahead, change the whole mandolin.....but if I am ever in the market for a nice '23' F4 I will look for the most untouched example I can find in the best condition possible. And pay the price it's worth. I guess I am one of the few who thinks
that these old mandolins are also a great part of our instrument making history.

I don't see your point.

Did he mention that he even wanted to sell it?

But to the point if you can't tune it or the bridge has collapsed then is the owner expected to keep in pristine albeit non-playing condition as his personal contribution to part of our insturment making history?

Also I would guess that there many of us here who already own some of these mandolins who think that are part of history -- so I do not think that you are one of the few.

Aren't you kind of setting up a strawman to beat on? :)

I think the question is not should you willy nilly modify vintage instruments? --but rather what do you do when they become un-playable?

[woodwizard]

I see what you mean Bernie. I may be wrong but I think what Nick meant (deep down) was that if he was looking for one of those to buy he would just prefer an all original one vs a reworked/repaired one. Nothing to do with if the original poster was selling his or not. I do agree that my instruments would need to be playable. It would drive you crazy if they weren't.

[Bernie Daniel]

I like to see and admire the pristine ones too. But I'd like to let someone else have the honor and duty of owning them.

In my opinion I am not enough of a collector and not orderly enough to be a proper caretaker of a mint vintage insturment. I more or less have one now (a '35 TG-00) and I really worry about keeping it that way. I felt the same way about my '61 Hummingbird (I spent 45 years worrying about about that guitar about nicking or chipping or letting it get too dry in the winter -- when I sold it last year it had one tiny nick and a little wear on the back before I learned about belt buckles)-- I miss it but now it is someone else's responsibility!)

I prefer to have a new insturments or vintage instrument that is in good to very cosmetic conditon and perfect playing condition. That is the best of worlds for my taste.

But I'm glad there are folks like you and Nick and others who are willing to to what is necessary to keep the mint ones in pristine condition. :)

More power to you. :mandosmiley: