My mystery Imperial mando

[Tom Humphreys]

Hi all, Well this is #3 so perhaps I have MAS? Really I'm a guitar player and have confirmed GAS. Really what I am is a cheapskate so I sniffed this one out offa Seattle Craigslist. No pic just, "Mandolin, Good shape. Needs tuning. $100.00." I got it for $80.00. The fellow said it was in the basement when he bought the house. Here's pix. I restrung it last night and man is it sweet! Check out the bridge. It looks like Jadite colored Bakelite. Anybody have thoughts on origins? Age? Value? The label reads: Made in USA, Imperial, The Brand of Quality, J.M.S. San Francisco"

[Schlegel]

Headstock says Regal to me.

[Paul Hostetter]

To me as well. That reddish birch provides a great backdrop for the green bridge. It looks like recycled toothbrush to me. Does it glow in the dark?

JMS would most likely be a west coast jobber, not the maker. Vintage? 30's, owing to the orientation of the tuners. Maybe earlier.

[MikeEdgerton]

Congratulations, the case is worth two or three times what you paid for the whole thing and a lot more than the mandolin is worth. I suspect Paul is right about the bridge.

[jeff mercer]

J.M.S stands for Jules M. Sahlien, a San Francisco distributor of the 20s/30s.

[Tom Humphreys]

Wow! You guys are awesome! Thanks for the quick replies. I'm surprised that the case is steeper than the mandolin itself. Anybody want to buy a case? It's actually a little too big for the mandolin and I plan on getting one that it doesn't rattle around in so much. The Mandolin really does play and sound great even without a setup. Is it just because it's so plain-Jane that it's worth less than the case? It looks like Jules M. Sahlien was big in Ukuleles. Apparently he intoduced some sort of metal tines suspended under the Uke bridge that was supposed to be a reverb of sorts. no such critter in my mandolin thankfully.

[Paul Hostetter]

Sahlein, of course. They were founded in 1919, and were still in business when I was getting going here around 1970 or so, but eventually faded away under the weight of labor disputes as they were eclipsed by other wholesalers. They once flooded the market with Japanese and Korean made instruments, including a raft of budget violins with a label that misspelled their name as Shalien. Many people had a hard enough time pronouncing Sahlein, and the Shahlien only made it worse.

I agree, that case is a score!

[MikeEdgerton]

Wow! You guys are awesome! Thanks for the quick replies. I'm surprised that the case is steeper than the mandolin itself. Anybody want to buy a case? It's actually a little too big for the mandolin and I plan on getting one that it doesn't rattle around in so much. The Mandolin really does play and sound great even without a setup. Is it just because it's so plain-Jane that it's worth less than the case? It looks like Jules M. Sahlien was big in Ukuleles. Apparently he intoduced some sort of metal tines suspended under the Uke bridge that was supposed to be a reverb of sorts. no such critter in my mandolin thankfully.

The mandolin is an entry level Chicago built mandolin, it's not worth a whole lot no matter what. They are on eBay with different labels weekly at about the price you paid. The case is a little larger because it was made to fit mandolins built buy another company.

[Tom Humphreys]

Hey here's a further intrigue: Antebellum Instruments has a restoration profile of a Kleartone that is very, very similar. http://antebelluminstruments.blogspot.com/2009/04/c1930s-kleartone-mandolin.html
The headstock has ahips-and-waist profile that mine does not but the machines are identical. The tailpiece is ever so slightly different...

[MikeEdgerton]

It's not a mystery really, the only question is which one of the Chicago builders can lay claim to it. You can rule out Stromberg-Voisenet (Kay), I've never seen one of theirs in that style, that leaves Lyon & Healy, Regal (pretty much L&H as well) and Harmony. All of the Chicago builders built mandolins "For the trade". They either had the private labels of distirubtors and retailers on them or they had no label on them. Unfortunately your mandolin has very non-descript traits, no smoking gun headstock shape or anything to give it a positive ID beyond being built in Chicago. Anyone that can positively ID it beyond that is using the WAG system. You'll find these with dozens of different labels. I have basically the same mandolin that belonged to my uncle with no label at all. As for the hardware, all of the builders bought from the same suppliers.

[JeffD]

Well Tom, with the possible exception of that minty fresh bridge, I like the look of that mandolin. With new strings and a set up it could sound really nice.

It looks like perhaps it had many years with a pickguard on it.

Were it mine I would change the bridge, get it set up, perhaps put a pickguard on, and play the potatoes out of it.

[MikeEdgerton]

I'd sell the case and then maybe buy a few more mandolins. YMMV.

[Tom Humphreys]

Thanks again, I guess it really was mostly a mystery to me!

I'm actually fond of the green-glow bridge. I'm on the fence about its manufacture... It's good enough to be commercially produced but apparently not recognized by anyone here. Coulda been a one-off by a talented toothbrush carver I suppose ;) If I could be convinced of a significant improvement in tone with a more standard bridge when I get a set up I'll consider swapping it out.

I'm also not clear about the pickguard. There certainly is a lighter area there, but no holes anywhere for mounting hardware. It also looks worn on close inspection, so I wonder if it might be a material lesson in the utility of pickguards.

As far as the case goes, I'm happy to unload it and quite possibly re-invest in more mandolinia. I don't see a buy/sell/trade section on the board. What are folks' recommendations for a marketplace? Is ebay the most likely to bear fruit?

What is the WAG system? (Wild ### guess?)

[MikeEdgerton]

Look on the upper left hand side of the page, see the Classifieds section?

There probably wasn't a pickguard. It's not a one off, it's a production model.

That's the WAG system.

[Tom Humphreys]

Aha! I had *not* spotted the classifieds! Thanks.

As far as the one off, I was referring just to the green plastic bridge, was that what you meant?

You seem cranky, have I offended you?

[Paul Hostetter]

If I could be convinced of a significant improvement in tone with a more standard bridge when I get a set up I'll consider swapping it out.

Go for a quality ebony bridge and decide later. Even though it'll have to be custom-made, it won't break the bank, and you can switch from one to the other easily and see for yourself.

[allenhopkins]

Mike E's never cranky, just succinct.

I think it has been "recognized" by several people as a Chicago-made early 20th century mandolin, manufactured for Jules Sahlein to sell out of that San Francisco distributorship. The big instrument manufacturers made instruments for many local and regional stores and distributors; Martin, the Larson brothers, Regal, Harmony, etc. all built guitars, mandolins, ukuleles etc. for large catalog sellers, franchise chains of music stores, and individual sales outlets. That's why you see Larson and Martin guitars marked "Southern California Music Co." , Weymann mandolutes marked "Keystone State," Harmony and Oscar Schmidt instruments marked "Silvertone" and sold by Sears. Same thing goes on today, as dealers order instruments from Asia with their individual nameplates on them.

"Imperial" may have been a house brand for Sahlein. William A. Cole, the Boston manufacturer, also sold "Imperial mandolins" (here's (http://www.mugwumps.com/WACole.html) an article about Cole), but this one doesn't look like the bowl-backs he sold. Here's (http://www.trocadero.com/stores/allinsts/items/890183/item890183.html) another "The Imperial" bowl-back, allegedly made in Cincinnati. The name "Imperial" also shows up on banjos made by Cole, and on other instruments, not associated with Sahlein.

The big Chicago manufacturers turned out thousands of student-grade and mid-priced instruments, plus a few top-of-the-line models. From appearances, this is a lower-end but still serviceable instrument, and that green bridge is really special!

[Tom Humphreys]

Thanks Allen, Succinct sounds right. My apologies to you Mike if I misconstrued your brevity for crankiness.

I think maybe I could have been clearer too; in my 2nd paragraph above I am *only* referring to the bridge, not the mandolin as a whole. So I did not mean to say that the Mandolin was a one-off or not recognized by anyone!!! Just the bridge...

I have gathered a wealth of information and insight on my new li'l baby since I first posted yesterday morning! In all seriousness it's a joy to be able to find such a knowledgeable and generous community at my fingertips!

Thank you!

[MikeEdgerton]

I've been eyeing my toothbrush for two days wondering what it would sound like as a saddle on my mandolin.

[Tracy Ballinger]

I've been eyeing my toothbrush for two days wondering what it would sound like as a saddle on my mandolin.

If you could rig up one of those toothbrushes with the little motor in it, you might also be able to break in your mandolin twice as quickly while playing!

[MikeEdgerton]

If you could rig up one of those toothbrushes with the little motor in it, you might also be able to break in your mandolin twice as quickly while playing!

Now that is a great idea. :)

[Capt. E]

The light area on the top looks like the finish has been worn away through finger abrasion etc. Similar abrasion down by the tailpiece. May never have had a pick guard/finger rest.

Nice old mando and I agree the green bridge is pretty unique.

[Capt. E]

From the pictures, the slots in the bridge look like they have been cut way too deep. I'd replace it for best playability.

[barney 59]

Mugwumps list has Imperial as a W.A. Cole trademark . W.A. Cole / Boston. You can't always tell from his list if it is a manufacturer or a distributor. It seems that W.A. Cole went out of business by one entry in 1909 but then the Imperial listing says 1890 - 1920's. There is a discrepency there but that is what he has.

[MikeEdgerton]

I'm betting it's an L&H or Regal product built for the trade.