Louis Sutz of Cincinatti?

[Andy Granitto]

Louis Sutz was an instrument-maker in Cincinatti in the early 1900s, his specialty was mandolins (I believe). I have an old parlor guitar he made in 1921. It's been rebuilt and has a very nice sound.
Does anyone know anything about Sutz?
...other instruments out there?
...market values?

Any information appreciated.

[Bernie Daniel]

I have lived in the Cincinnati area for around 37 years and as a result I have heard the name mentioned.

My understanding is he was building guitars and violins in the early decades of the 1900's in the area of Cincinnati known as Over the Rhine because of its mostly German population -- today it is a low income/high crime area.

But 30 years ago you could occasionally still find one of his instruments in the pawn shops.

In around 1989 I found a classical guitar in one of those shops and bought it for (as I recall) $50 -- its pretty nicely made and sounds good -- I believe it was built by one of his later apprentices by the name of Daniyyel L. Howard jr. (yes that is the right spelling -- it seems like a woman's name? but I don't now any woman that uses "junior" :)).

Rumor is Sutz had many students but none stayed very long because he was so demanding that most did not want to work in his shop.

But I do know a gentleman, a luthier/repairman who knows "just about everything" about insturments and musicians in this area -- next time I see him I'll ask -- never discussed this topic before.

In fact, I have no proof of any of my information on Sutz other than what I overheard years ago in the comments by a musician who had been playing folk music in this area for a long time and before that her father was playing. It was related in a story she was telling another musican and I happened to be standing there and heard it too.

I sure did not know that he made any mandolins -- can I ask how you came across that tibit of information? -- that is very interesting to me! Do you know if they were flat backs or bowl backs?

[MikeEdgerton]

www.mugwumps.com has a listing in the Encyclopedia of Stringed Instrument Makers as:

Sutz, Louis Cincinnati OH circa 1900

Further information:

Name: Louis Sutz
Birth: 17 Jun 1862 - Friedrichsthal, Baden-Württemberg, Germany
Death: 02 Mar 1942 - Cincinnati, Hamilton, Ohio

Post a picture, I've never seen any of his instruments.

[Bernie Daniel]

I think I might have taken a few pics -- if not I can do so when I get home tonight.

That information on his birth and death are the first actual written data I've ever seen on him. Where did you find that?

Also that source say whether or not he made mandolins? If so it might be worth doing a little detective work and see if I can track a few examples down from around the general metro area here.

If he died in 1942 at 80 years -- perhaps he stopped working in the early to mid-1930's -- just a guess. So if he made mandolins (speculation) he probably was making bowlbacks?

I will contact a person today and pick his brain -- if he does not know I am doubtful of finding out much more without some kind of more serious research.

[Andy Granitto]

I'm back, the guy who asked about Louis Sutz...
Jeez, the feedback comes in fast! thanks to everyone.
I WILL post a picture of my Sutz guitar -- promise.
It is the label inside the guitar that states that Sutz made mandolins; I've never seen one, but a google searched turned up an old correspondence (from the '90s?) about a Sutz mandolin.

I'll be back after the weekend.

[Bernie Daniel]

Sorry you gave the link I missed that.

I just talked to Henry Krusse a man who has done luthiery in Cincinnati since the 1970's -- he seems to recall that years ago he worked on a couple of guitars and a mandolin by Sutz -- so looks like he did make mandolins.

[MikeEdgerton]

...That information on his birth and death are the first actual written data I've ever seen on him. Where did you find that...

Bernie, if I told you I'd have to kill you. :cool:

I got it in a Google search.

[Jim Garber]

As I recall there was a mandolinetto by Sutz, sort of ornate, for sale, maybe on eBay a few years back. I will check my files this evening.

There was a mention of him on this thread (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?p=553768&highlight=sutz#post553768).

[Jim Garber]

Here is the one Sutz mandolin I have in my files. I may have been mistaken about the mandolinetto.

[Jim Garber]

I also found two rather pedestrian-looking bowlbacks.

[brunello97]

Jim, I am glad you posted as I have been scratching my head certain I had an image of a Sutz flatback. Your link to my earlier post confirm that I did have one apparently at one time.....gone now. For my eye the flatback you posted has a nice body shape to it, somewhat Bohman-esque counter curve. The pick guard shape is unfortunate, however.

Mick

[Jim Garber]

I found these great photos of a Louis Sutz parlor guitar on what appears to be a Korean blog. I esp like the old label which says "repairing neatly and promptly attended to".

Here is the link: Louis Sutz Parlor Guitar (http://blog.daum.net/_blog/BlogView.do?blogid=08flx&articleno=15858936&categoryId=587964#ajax_history_home)

[brunello97]

Very pretty guitar, Jim. I guess if we had to cut down the Brazilian rainforest some of it went to some 'good' use. One of the labels posted says lists--1616 Vine St.--as the location of Sutz's shop. Is that in the city's Over-the-Rhein area? My (German) wife did her post-doc in Cincinnati and always found that name curious. I visited there a couple times and thought it was an interesting city.

Mick

[Jim Garber]

Yes, I was there also many years ago. Not sure what area that was, but I was in the more artsy area. Walking around, I encountered the Rookwood Pottery museum which was quite nice.

[Bernie Daniel]

I found an old pic of the guitar I bought in the Cincinnati pawn shop back in the 1980's. It has been hanging in the basement since then.

The small label is unreadable the large label says it was made in Cincinnati, Ohio by Daniyyel L. Howard jr --no year given.

I believe that shortly after I bought it someone in the Famous Old Tyme Music Co. mentioned the link between Howard and Sutz -- again I have no way to verify that unless I run into the owner Vern McIntyre one of these days. He lives in Wapakoneta (home of Neil Armstrong) Ohio now. But I'll ask him about it when I see him later this summer.

[Bernie Daniel]

The Vine street address is in Over the Rhine.

I think, Jim, you were probably in Mount Adams -- at the Rookwood Pottery resturant/museum? I guess that might be considered as the edge of OTR. Rookwood has moved and now has several locations around the metro area.

As noted the name, OTR, came for the fact it was at one time "Little Germany" -- at its zenith, in the years after the Civil war, it was an American Germanic cultural center with German churches, German-American organizations and clubs and there were also an OTR daily newspaper and a magazine published in German. The name Over the Rhine came about because people compared crossing the Erie Canal with crossing over the Rhine River.

[brunello97]

.....The small label is unreadable the large label says it was made in Cincinnati, Ohio by Daniyyel L. Howard jr --no year given.

There was a Eugene Howard active as a luthier in Cincinnati around this time period as well. Makes one wonder if Daniyyel and Eugene were related.

Here is quite a fancy bowl from Eugene H.

Mick

[Jim Garber]

I believe that Eugene Howard was a brand name used by Wurlitzer or else was a maker that Wurlitzer sold.

[MikeEdgerton]

From Mugwumps:

Howard, Eugene Cincinnati OH c1896-1925

That doesn't mean that Wurlitzer didn't distribute them.

Wurlitzer, Howard E. Cincinnati OH 1894
Wurlitzer, Rudolph Cincinatti OH 1856-1940s

[Bernie Daniel]

To follow up on this I went down to the basement and took the guitar down --its been hang there for quite a few years --had to dust it off a bit!

Here is a pic of the larger label. Maybe the Wurlitzer then is possibe -- still the name Howard makes it seem likely that this might be a younger relative of Eugene also? Interesting.

I'm going to try to find something out about Daniyyel L. Howard jr -- but not tonight -- have to change strings yet.

[Andy Granitto]

Here are some images of my old Sutz guitar. Nice inlay and serious Brazilian Rosewood!
...and a thick "triangular neck."
It has a wonderful full sound (particularly nice low end).

It has a history (as seen on the labels) -- rebuilt twice.
In 1943 it was rebuilt by Fritz Hauck in Cincinatti
In 1981 it was rebuilt agian by Mark Leue in Albany, NY.

It was pretty bashed up before it was fixed in 1981, and you can see the damage on the lower back (I got it in 1982 from Mark Leue, Heartwood Music, Albany). The top was refinished at this time also, but not the back (I believe). I have always thought it was built ca.1920, but there is no date on the label.
Can anyone guess a date from the label style?? (I notice Sutz had different label styles).

[Andy Granitto]

Forget to mention...

The pegs are not original.
...and here's another image of the label.

Thanks everybody!

(Mark Leue, if you're out there, HOWDY! Is Heartwood Music still alive?)

[Jim Garber]

Hmmmm... Mark Leue... I think I bought a fiddle from him.

[Andy Granitto]

...We're getting further from Louis Sutz...
Mark Leue (pronounced "LOY-uh" -- the guy I got the Sutz guitar from in 1982), owned Heartwood Music in Albany, NY in the early '80s. He was young, a really nice guy, and starting out in the used instrument/instrument repair/rebuilding business. I was starting out in carpentry/historic restoration, and I traded him a sign for his music store for the Louis Sutz guitar. The guitar was his first major guitar rebuilding project, and the sign was a big, funky custom-made "Art Nuveau" style mahogany/maple-ply/mahogany "sandwich" with a guitar shape built into it, a sound hole that went through the sign, and a neck that stuck out the side; Mark attached a fingerboard, pegs, and strings -- it looked pretty good back then; I wonder if it still exists ...in one piece?)

[MikeEdgerton]

They don't appear to have a web presence. There's a Heartwood Music in Ukiah, CA.

[allenhopkins]

Mark Leue Stringed Instruments
(413) 628-3367
1790 Cape St
Williamsburg, MA 01096-9793

Found this on one of those regional business listings; couldn't pull up a website for the company, but it appears Mr. Leue is still in the business.

[Jim Garber]

I recently heard from a descendant of Louis Sutz. Here is what she said:

My Great Aunt; Emma Sutz, married Harold Francisco...
Harold Francisco is brother to my Grandfather John Henry Francisco.

Emma Sutz and her brother Louis were two of ten children.

Louis Sutz born 1883
John Sutz 1886
Emma Sutz 1888
Eliza Sutz 1890
Matilda Sutz 1897
William Sutz 1900
Alvina Sutz 1902

three babies died before the 1900c. I don't know anything about them. And William died between 1900 and 1910.

Emma when she spoke of her Father, always referred to his violin making.
And he had a Shop in down town Cincinnati. Her brothers when old enough
began to help in the shop. Tho John became a minister.

The labels in the photos on the Internet appear to be of different ages
the more square of the labels in photos to me is an older style and may be
Louis Sr. work and the other appears to be a more resent label suggesting
a piece made by his son.

Louis Sutz Sr. was born in Baden, Germany 1862 and immigrated to the US in 1880 and was later naturalized. He died 1942 here in Cincinnati. His wife is Phillipina Meyer also born in Baden her birth date 1857. She died also in 1942.

Louis Sutz Sr. parents are Peter Sutz and Carolina LaCroix.

[john erdmann]

I too have a Louis Sutz parlor guitar made in Cincinnati, the label reads 616(?) Vine St., maker of cabinets (which I find interesting) and stringed instruments. Your chronology makes sense to me. The guitar belonged to my grandfather, Armin Erdmann, the "Singing Conductor" on the Cincy street cars. He grew up in Over the Rhine, the German area of Sutz Vine Street shop.
I would assume my grandfather purchased the instrument in the 20's or 30's because he was born in 1875. He composed on the guitar, one tune was recorded in the late 50's, and played the guitar up into the '60's. I've had a little repair done on the guitar. It looks much line one picture I see in your forum. I believe the body is mahogany, ebony fret board.
I'm anxious to know more about Sutz.
Any idea of the value of such an instrument?

John Erdmann

[mrmando]

Here is a Sutz bowlback (http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/msg/1522816402.html) on Craig's List.

[Highlander]

I just picked up that very same Mandolin that Jim shows, except mine also as a decorative inlay running down the middle back. Exact same label inside (wish they'd put the year!!) Got it from a fellow in Ann Arbor for $125, considering it's age it is in very good condition, two hairline cracks on the back. Took it to my favorite luthier and he was quite impressed by it, said it's likely worth $800 - $1000!! I would like to know when he stopped building mandolins, would at least give an idea of the age. I was told it's from 1910, but I wouldn't take that to the bank.
Anybody know any more about the business at 616 Vine?
86828

[Highlander]

Thought I'd put pics of my Sutz Mandolin up.
868718687286873

[Jim Garber]

highlander: you made mention of the back but you did not post any pics of it.

[pfox14]

Well, that's just about everything you'd ever want to know about Louis Sutz. Great work guys

[Highlander]

Aye, I must make amends!8691986920

[fernmando]

I grew up on Elm Street in Over The Rhine. MUCH bluegrass music was played there in the '70s at our house! Enjoying this thread.

Roscoe Morgan

[Mark Leue]

Hi Andy, Jim!
Five years later i somehow stumble across this thread on the eternal internet. Nice to be remembered 30 some years later. I don't have the sign anymore, Andy, but it was really cool. Anyway I am still at it, in Ashfield Mass. I have a website about my luthiurie business, the luthier.us. There you can see my current sign which is inspired in part by your original sign, Andy. http://www.theluthier.us

[CooleyC]

Hello all!

I believe I spoke to the same family member of Louis Sutz. I own a Louis Sutz violin. I bought it from a collector and luthier in Manchester, TN. I went to one of those Antique Roadshow like events in Southaven, MS, put on by the public television/radio station in Memphis, TN. They gave an estimated value of $3000-$4000. I will post pictures later this evening.

[CooleyC]

6 Years Later... Here are pictures of the violin...