Embarassed by a Capo?

[Wingher]

Those who use capos, do you use them proudly, or do you hide?

I attended a beginner jam camp (I will not name names or location) last week. After playing quite a bit in the morning, much more than I was used to. We broke off into groups to "jam." Well, my fret hand was tired, so when someone suggested a song in "A" I pulled out my capo. BTW, I can play capoless in A and other keys... The instructor gave me quite the load of #*@! saying no professionals use a capo. Needless to say I was shocked and embarassed, put my capo away and struggled through the song.

Of course, my mind was blank and really couldn't come up with a good comeback line. But did get a bit even later in the day.

What would you have done? :popcorn:

[Jim Broyles]

You will probably get some hairy eyeballs and maybe even some rude comments, but there is no shame in using a capo. I would make every attempt to learn the mandolin without using a capo, but as a tool for achieving open string ringing sounds in odd keys such as Ab, Eb, Db and Bb, (and there are others,) go for it. I don't think I would use one for A, but that's just me. :)

[MikeEdgerton]

The instructor isn't too well informed. One of these threads (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/search.php?query=capo&exactname=0&starteronly=0&forumchoice%5B%5D=&prefixchoice%5B%5D=&childforums=1&titleonly=1&searchdate=0&beforeafter=after&do=process)contains a video of Ricky Skaggs using a capo so I guess that myth is busted. capos have been discussed quite a few times.

[mandroid]

By pulling out a capo for key of A, indicates you have more learning to do, and the instructor should be happy that the lesson payments will continue, so he can teach you some A and E chord positions.


[broad generalization] Folkie singer pros capo their guitars too ..

Don't think you'll see Jazz and Classical Pros pulling out a capo, so the music and the level of training have a influence , too .. can't learn everything all at once, it's a path , after all.

so you can play G, C, D, now you have a desire, it would seem, learn more chords and practice changes between them .

get that pinky finger in the action, too.. ;)

I use half Barres like a capo with my index finger, then form the chord with the other 3 fingers .

[GDAE]

The instructor gave me quite the load of #*@! saying no professionals use a capo. Needless to say I was shocked and embarassed, put my capo away and struggled through the song.


And no professional instructor would humiliate a student. He should have said "let's try it without a capo" or something similar, and possibly showed you the starting position or something. Especially in a beginner's session. I know one person who quit guitar entirely after being embarrassed by her instructor, years ago, and has never touched one since.

Whether using a capo was a good idea or not, that is no way to instruct a workshop.

[Elliot Luber]

I've spoken out against using a capo (as less experienced players can use it to avoid learning new keys) but I wouldn't ever be embarrassed by the fact that I was using one. There are many legitimate reasons, as folks here point out regularly.

[Steve Perry]

The instructor gave me quite the load of #*@! saying no professionals use a capo. Needless to say I was shocked and embarassed, put my capo away and struggled through the song.

Of course, my mind was blank and really couldn't come up with a good comeback line. But did get a bit even later in the day.

What would you have done? :popcorn:

I would've said "I'm not a professional" while I continued to put the capo on.;)

[OldSausage]

I would've said "I'm not a professional" while I continued to put the capo on.;)

Yes, really. "Is Adam Steffey here then? No? Well then, meet Mr Capo."

[jim_n_virginia]

I admit I have used a capo on occasion usually when I am backing someone up who's moving the capo all over the place to match their voice. If I am going to play with them regularly then I'll take the time to learn all their tunes without a capo but it it's someone I just met or like a jam or something I'll use the capo.

BUT ... I also have to admit that if I am out in the rural parts of Virginia around the old school bluegrassers I won't use a capo because I know they will feel the need to make a comment! LOL!

But with Folkies and Jazzers they don't care so I'll use it around them.

But around the Bluegrass police? no way! I don't want the hairy eyeball! :))

[Wingher]

By pulling out a capo for key of A, indicates you have more learning to do, and the instructor should be happy that the lesson payments will continue, so he can teach you some A and E chord positions.



I do know the chords, I was lazy and tired so I was going to cheat and play two finger chords... :grin:

[8ch(pl)]

Our group is always careful to state the Key of each song. I don't own a Capo, but one of the guitars uses one. We have a lady who sings in a Contralto voice. This means changing keys to suit her voice range. The Ian Tyson song "Four Strong Winds" is normally done in G, but she does it in B Flat. It took me some time to learn to chord it ( it uses C Minor instead of A Minor, Em up to Gm etc.) Now I find this key suits my tenor voice and I always do it in B flat.

A lot of guitarists use Capos, and if they play Mandolin as well, use a Capo there too. I believe that it is better to learn the chords, but agree that there may be a time to play with a Capo for effect.

[John Flynn]

My response to that instructor's remark would be against the posting guidelines, and against the law in most states! :)) Seriously, though, I'd tell him I'll put my capo away if the guitar and banjo players put their capos away! :disbelief:

I have to say, however, that even though I occasionally use a capo for church music, I just don't find it necessary for bluegrass. Although bluegrass can be very challenging to play at a high level, getting through a basic solo at a jam in any key just isn't that hard and if you are going to play bluegrass, it's just something you should challenge yourself to do. Part of learning is getting "thrown in deep water" occasionally. I had an instructor who would say that kind of stuff, but he was just trying to challenge me. I learned more from him than any other instructor I've had.

[CES]

I'd have put the capo on and run with it...probably would have made a smart aleck remark in the process.

While his point is taken, his method was not terribly professional it seems.

I, too, use a capo primarily when I'm trying to play something on the fly with guitar players who are capoing for songs I don't really know. I don't know enough theory yet to transpose on the fly, but it's a skill I'm working on. If there's another mando player to follow I'll leave it off, but if not I do what I gotta do to keep playing...like theory, the capo is a tool, nothing more, nothing less.

[Jim Broyles]

I do know the chords, I was lazy and tired so I was going to cheat and play two finger chords... :grin:
Two finger chords, key of A:
A = 6200
D = 2002
E = 1220 (can be done with two fingers:) )

[Shelagh Moore]

I try and play in all keys but occasionally will resort to a capo if I'm playing something I'm not so familiar with along with someone else which is one of the more difficult keys. I don't see any shame in it at all.

[auteq]

Apart from Ricky Skaggs Darrel Scott playing with Tim O'Brien also used a capo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPkDz4T2eVE

[Brandon Flynn]

If it sounds good with the capo, who cares. SOUND is what matters. If you shorten the scale too much with the capo, it will be too high pitched for my liking. But otherwise, go for it. Although it is good to be able to play without one.

[Gerard Dick]

It was totally unprofessional to ream you out in front of the assembly. If an instructor has some negative input for his student it should be given in private. Find you a new instructor.

[Chris Keth]

I wasn't there but it sounds like he may have been giving you a friendly ribbing to push you to play better. The same thing as a football coach calling his team a bunch of little girls.

[jeff mercer]

Auteq,

Thanks for posting that..not only a beautiful song, but a perfect example of a musical setting that would have me reaching for a capo..you would "prove" nothing to anyone by playing closed-position "chop" chords throughout a song like that..it really called for the ring of open strings, and..um..that's what capos are for..

[allenhopkins]

Unprofessional on the part of the instructor. On the other hand, if he was still "instructing" and not just jamming, he may have wanted to teach/demonstrate playing with others in particular keys, fingerings and such, and having one person playing in G positions when everyone else was in A could have made this more difficult. In any case, giving someone a load of solid waste is never a good teaching or group-leading technique.

Though I almost never use a capo myself on mandolin (do it frequently on mandola, octave mandolin and mandocello), I fail to understand the fanatical orthodoxy of the Anti-Capo Taliban. A capo can be a "crutch" that keeps a mandolin player from learning how to play in a variety of keys, or it can be a useful tool to achieve particular "open" string sounds or fluidity/fluency that might be much harder to attain without it. Not, IMHO, an ethical issue, but it sometimes seems that others take it that way.

[JeffD]

I like to use the capo on certain tunes for which I have worked out a great harmony involving open strings ringing through the melody line. Without a capo it can only be played in one or two keys.

[GTG]

The instructor's attitude was rough and unprofessional. Using a capo isn't necessarily something to be embarrassed about.

But using a capo to play a bluegrass tune in A?! well, you might expect a little ribbing! ;) :mandosmiley:

[Ivan Kelsall]

One of the finest Mandolin players i've ever seen live,Barry Mitterhoff,also used a capo when i saw him years back with the Lynn Morris band. IMHO,if you want to use one that's fine,if you can get by without,then that's better - 'whatever', as long as you play well,
Ivan

[mandozilla]

I personally don't use a capo for mandolin and I'm a Reserve Bluegrass Police Officer but, I couldn't care less whether or not someone uses a capo on his/her mandolin.

The important thing to me is #1 the sound, and #2 having fun. I would quickly come to the defense of anyone getting the business over capo use...it's just big fat egos and just plain silly. :mad:

I'm sure the folks with the Hairy Eyeballs ain't no Bill Monroe either! :grin:

~o):popcorn:

[Amandalyn]

Why is it Ok to use a capo on a guitar but not mandolin? You don't hear people critizing guitar players for using a capo rather than playing barrre chords all the time.
It's just a tool, and helpful for the odd chords. I've seen lots of pros using them
on videos- especially the country artists.

[Blip]

I haven't needed to use a capo on my mandolin yet.. since I can play open chords in the four most common major keys (and their relative minors).

Haven't learned more chop chords than G, A and D yet because I don't play bluegrass.


When I get my mandola though, I will probably use a capo to be able to play as many open chords as possible, since more chords seem to be closed ones.



If you need "open strings", it's fine to use a capo.


I also use capo on my guitar so I don't need to go all around the neck with barré chords to play songs.

[JeffD]

When I get my mandola though, I will probably use a capo to be able to play as many open chords as possible, since more chords seem to be closed ones.

.


I find the capo gives me a lot of options on the mandola. I can play it without a capo, and harmonize with the fiddles, or read alto clef directly, I can capo two and play down a string, coming in a full octave below the fiddles, where I can then play in unison or what ever.

[mandolirius]

The instructor's attitude was rough and unprofessional. Using a capo isn't necessarily something to be embarrassed about.

But using a capo to play a bluegrass tune in A?! well, you might expect a little ribbing! ;) :mandosmiley:


A couple of things: one, no one knows if the instructor was being rough or unprofessional. No details were offered. It could well have been the friendly ribbing another poster suggested. I suspect the instructor had the OP's best interests at heart.

It's not easy being an instructor at these kinds of camps. After 12 years as program director of one, I know. You have a lot of different personalities to deal with and some people are quite sensitive to even a percieved slight. The OP carried this around with him all day, looking for a chance to "get even". And it sounds as if he's still not over it. Hey, he said it himself...he was being lazy and looking to cheat. Hardly appropriate to blame the instructor for pointing that out.

[GTG]

A couple of things: one, no one knows if the instructor was being rough or unprofessional. No details were offered. It could well have been the friendly ribbing another poster suggested. I suspect the instructor had the OP's best interests at heart.

It's not easy being an instructor at these kinds of camps. After 12 years as program director of one, I know. You have a lot of different personalities to deal with and some people are quite sensitive to even a percieved slight. The OP carried this around with him all day, looking for a chance to "get even". And it sounds as if he's still not over it. Hey, he said it himself...he was being lazy and looking to cheat. Hardly appropriate to blame the instructor for pointing that out.

Well, I certainly don't know what happened, but to call a student out in front of his peers, clearly make him uncomfortable, and accuse him unfairly of committing an offense sounds pretty unprofessional to me. In fact, if being a good instructor is partly about catering to widely varying levels of ability and style, I would think instructors would be quite fond of capos for struggling students in these classes...
In any case, I responded more to poke a bit of fun at the OP about playing in A. I find A to be one of the nicest keys to play in (for bluegrass) with those two ringing open strings and two full octaves accessible in root position, and not one that usually brings out the capos. But hey, it's all good, and I know what tired hands feel like.

[MikeEdgerton]

I don't see the OP getting even. Did he mention the instructors name? Maybe I'm missing something.

[bjc]

I use a capo for learning songs I've been sent that are in a different key than they will be played and on occassion for the sound. :mandosmiley:

The instructor's attitude reminded of something that happened years ago:
In a Jazz Improve class I started finger tapping (ala Van Halen) and the teacher (a horn player) stopped the class. He asked me how much I paid for my axe. He then proceeded to tell me "Bullsh*t like that makes that thing sound like you paid a quarter for it. Real musicians don't do that sh*t!":crying:

The next semester I had a younger teacher, but a disciple of the last teacher. I started finger tapping...the teacher stopped me. "What are you doing? That's cool...what notes are you hitting?..." He then went on to give me ideas...he was so excited and so was I...:grin:

[Wingher]

I don't see the OP getting even. Did he mention the instructors name? Maybe I'm missing something.
Mike, we are both missing something!

This is totally getting out of hand. :( The majority of folks read the entire message and understood my point, that being, IF you use a capo, do you hide it or not. I explained my situation, being a beginner and being more comfortable, when tired, playing A capo'd.

I intentionally didn't mention where the camp was and who the instructor was (though, I did find out later that the mandolin was not on his resume... :) ) I was not trying to get even for being singled out, but I do enjoy zinging someone when the opportunity presents itself. :)

BTW, I'm a she... WingHER.

[TEE]

Of course, my mind was blank and really couldn't come up with a good comeback line. [U]But did get a bit even later in the day[/U ]

I think this is the getting even part referred to by some, Mike.

[MikeEdgerton]

OK, that would be such a minor part of the post It didn't even register.

[Greg H.]

Come to think of it, I remember seeing Jimmy Gaudreau using a capo . . . . gosh. ...does that mean he's not a professional either? :grin:

Use the capo if you like. . . .professionals do what they want to do to achieve the best sound.

[Frank Johnson]

Use a capo or not? I won't hesitate to use one, and it doesn't bother me if someone else uses one. One of the best parts about being a beginner is I'm normally expected to do something unusual so's I CAN play along, including using a capo (or moving to a different spot so I can watch the guitar player's fretting hand so I know what chords are being played).

[Keith Erickson]

I am perplexed on the frequency and activity of these "should or should not capo" threads.

I don't know what else can be said about this subject which hasn't been said before :confused:

[David Rambo]

Isn't the sound of the music we make more important than the mechanics of how we make it? Otherwise we become like the violin section of an orchestra that must use the exact same fingering as that of the section leader, regardless of how good or bad his technique happens to be.

[JeffD]

IF you use a capo, do you hide it or not.


If I use one I use it openly, deliberatley, and with malice. ;)

[John Flynn]

I am perplexed on the frequency and activity of these "should or should not capo" threads.

I don't know what else can be said about this subject which hasn't been said before :confused:
Keith, you are right, but I would make three points:

1) You could say that about a significant number of threads on lots of topics on the Cafe' and I don't mean that as a criticism, just a statement of fact. If you set aside treads that contain late-breaking news, I would say most of the remaining threads have been done before.

2) It's not the same audience each time. Each time a thread like this comes up, there are new members involved that were not part of the discussion the last time and I'm guessing there are older members who decide not to particpate this time.

3) My memory (which may be faulty, I grant you) remembers these threads as changing over time. Five years ago, people suggesting the use of a capo got put down and ridiculed. Now the tide has turned. Personally, I find those kinds of opinion shifts interesting.

[CoMando]

I am perplexed on the frequency and activity of these "should or should not capo" threads.

I don't know what else can be said about this subject which hasn't been said before :confused:

Kieth...excuse the thread. Since you are so familiar with the subject and have tired of discussing it, the rest of us shouldn't either? Some of us are interested in reading what opinions are on the subject. Sure...we could search the forum for previous discussions on this topic, but wouldn't it be easier for you to just not read this one?