1923 Gibson Tenor Lute

[Taylor and Tenor]

This is my Gibson Tenor Lute. It is really a tenor banjo but I have it tune to GDAE and play it as if it was a four string octave mandolin.

I take it to Traditional Irish music sessions on occasion but like my old guitar, it is a "Parlor" instrument. I have a pair of Kentucky KM 170 series oval holes and reworked amplified Aria four string mandolin. One of which I take to play at TIM sessions normally.

[Bill Snyder]

What is the scale length?

[Taylor and Tenor]

It is about 21 inches.

[Jake Wildwood]

Looks great! I've always wanted to try one of these.

[Jason Kessler]

Yikes! That's a beaut.

I've never even heard of such an instrument. Curious, though: what makes it a "lute?"

[journeybear]

While we're at it, what makes it a tenor banjo?

I see the peghead looks like a banjo head, esp. the placement of the logo. And I understand the tenor tuning - I tune my steel tenor guitar the same way - well, like a mandola, CGDA. But the body is not, um, circular with a skin stretched on it, aka, a drum. :confused:

Which is not to imply it's not a beautiful instrument, because it is, and in fact is stirring rumblings of MAS which I had thought I had successfully suppressed ... ;)

I'm finding a bit about this on the interweb, here (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?3553) and here. (http://www.mandolin-player.com/instruments/alto-mandola/tenor-lute-2.html) And I quote: "The Tenor Lute has a Mandola body with carved spruce top and carved birch back and sides. Its maple neck is akin to that of a Style 3 banjo, complete with Moccasin headstock, dot-neck ebony 24 fret fingerboard and 20-3/4" scale length." So I guess that would be where the banjo similarity comes from. But it of course isn't a banjo.

BTW, according to The Mandolin Archive, these were produced only from 1924 - 1926, and all known surviving instruments have the 1924 date. If yours is indeed 1923 you ought to inform them. They are the best online information source for mandolins, as far as I know, and are surely interested in being as close to 100% accurate as possible.

[f5loar]

Looks like my '24 TL sans the pickguard. They generally carry a Loar Master Model style label even though they do not have the Loar signature label. I keep mine tuned like a mandola. Are you sure it is a '23? What is the serial no.?
The 8 string TL's are the hard ones to find.

[jeff mercer]

These are an interesting paradox, aren't they ?

A Loar-era, Master Model-labelled, Gibson made Mandolin family instrument that seem to have little or no cache with players and/or collectors !!:confused:

I personally think they are gorgeous..how do they sound, guys ? ~o)

[Taylor and Tenor]

There have been several questions as to the date.

When I spoke to Julius Bellson shortly after he retired from Gibson plant in Mich. nearly 30 years ago as a senior member of the management team, he informed only 89 Tenor Lutes were made and from his records my instrument was made in November of 1923. It was not a big seller according to Mr. Bellson and the number made indicate that. They were made to look like a mandolin but have the sound of a banjo for the bands of that era.

However, the information given to me 30 years ago does not correspond to the serial numbers shown in the current Mandolin Archives listing.

As the words in the C&W song of a few years ago says "That my story and I'm sticking to it".

[Jim Garber]

They were made to look like a mandolin but have the sound of a banjo for the bands of that era.

I think you mean that they were made to be played like the tenor banjos of the era. According to Gruhn, there were a few of them also made with 8 strings and mandolin style tuners. They were discontinued in 1926.

I played one many years ago at Mandolin Brothers. I don't remember being all that impressed, then again, it was years ago, probably in the 1980s.

[f5loar]

So are you saying Julius Belson was off by a month or two and you really have a '24? or are you saying your number still says it was made in late '23?
30 years ago they didn't care about those serial nos. Julius helped supply a lot of the information found on the archives. Usually the numbers are together in batches.
Mine is 77283 which makes it a late '24.

[journeybear]

Sounds to me that he is saying his was made in November 1923, which is just a couple of months shy of 1924. It is well known that Gibson's record-keeping is very inconsistent, as is their serialization. There's a lot of guesswork as a result. I am prepared to believe Mr. Boyle's recollection, as it comes from someone who sounds pretty knowledgeable. I have no idea where the Mandolin Archives got their information, but since these two sources are not that far off, it's entirely possible the MA needs to recheck their data. Since these were not big sellers there probably hasn't been much interest in them, so the records about them are likely a bit spotty as a result.

The point I was trying to make is that he should contact the Mandolin Archives. Send them pictures and a brief history of the instrument with the serial number, so they can add it to their gallery. Two is better than one. There are so few of these that each one they can display is that much more of a help in telling the whole story of the Gibson products. I just about guarantee they will be happy to change their version of events when presented with proof that shows otherwise. That's what archivists do - they adjust the story to fit the facts, not the other way around.

[journeybear]

I see now that there are 17 tenor lutes at the Mandolin Archives - I'd thought there was just one. Oops! :redface: There's even an 8-string one. The good news is that's nearly 20% of the total production, an extraordinary representation.

And one of them IS Parlor Boyle's. :mandosmiley:

The description for one of them reads, in part: "The most rare configuration of one of the most rare "standard" Gibson instruments, the TL-4 is the fancy version of a tenor banjo neck grafted onto a mandola body." I suppose what makes this different from an octave mandolin is the neck, not being constructed specifically for the instrument, and they had to call it something ... ;) ... As mandolin-player.com (http://www.mandolin-player.com/instruments/alto-mandola/tenor-lute-2.html)put it, "Pre-war instrument manufacturers had a bad habit of "borrowing" names from historic instruments and applying them to their new inventions with little regard to historic accuracy."

[Darryl Wolfe]

I used to own the one that F5Loar has. I sold it to him so that I could rid myself of the temptation to convert it to a Style 5 A-model mandola

[f5loar]

First off the date. If Boyles is 77247 then it has to be a late '24 not a late '23. While it is general knowledge that Gibson's serial no. dating is not the best in the world that is not the case with the late '22 to late '24 models since Loar signed a specific month,day,year in the Master Models. One only needs to place a serial no. in between the signed models to get a near exact date down to the month. Sure there may be a few that don't fit the mold in the date but that is usually due to something being held back and signed later. So how does that make Boyles a '23? It don't. It simply cannot be. I'm not saying Bellson is wrong in what he told him I'm saying someone somewhere along the way got some wires crossed up.
However if that is not Boyles TL and the archives photos are wrong and he can prove a '23 serial no. I stand to be corrected and the archives needs to be corrected. I have no doubt there would have been a '23 prototype made in '23 and there may be even several but none have been recorded to date. Boyles may be it. In my next post I will quote the 1924 Gibson catalog desciption of the Tenor Lute. Very informative.

[f5loar]

From the 1924 Gibson Catalog: The Tenor-lute TL-1. A new instrument, with the single stringing scale, tuning and technique fo the tenor-banjo, but with the tone of the guitar magnified several hundred per cent. Thus the tenor-banjoist can double immediately and secure wholly different effects without learning to play a new instrument. The Gibson tenor-lute is the greatest boon to the tenor-banjoist yet devised and has met with immediate acclaim, being used in daily playing and in recording work. Of Gibson Master construction throughout, embodying the "f" sound-holes, large sounding-board with bridge in the center, correctly tuned air-chamber,bass and treble tone bars- all making possible a tone as powerful and penetrating as that of the Gibson Tenor Banjo, TB-5 with the piquant charm and singing richness of the L-5 guitar. It's practical value to the orchestra player or soloist, as well as its beauty of effects, assures for it a popularity unprecedented in the history of fretted instrument building.

[journeybear]

Thanks for posting that. It's a real glimpse into the past.

My word! Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose! Marketing-speak - it's a timeless language all its own! :) Talk about putting a positive spin on their new creation. I don't mean to offend any owners of these surely fine instruments, and I am no expert in these matters, but it really looks to me as if the company had made too many tenor banjo necks and had to come up with a way of using them. They don't look like mandolin family pegboards, not a bit. Then again, if they were indeed meant to appeal to tenor-banjoists, then it would make sense to make them as familiar as possible. But if they play and sound nice, that's a moot point. But from a marketing strategy viewpoint ... they had to find a way to sell them. Some current owners say they have good sustain but low volume, so they were probably not suitable substitutes for tenor banjos in orchestras at the time. Apparently they were not taken to heart by the public, that unprecedented popularity never appeared, and production ended after two years and only 89 made.

I'm quite partial to this turn of phrase - The Gibson tenor-lute is the greatest boon to the tenor-banjoist yet devised - because it seems that the company was concerned about losing musicians to the Dark Side (aka banjo-playing) and devised a means of luring them back from the abyss. :grin: Also, it's interesting to note that the marketing department didn't have its ducks in a row concerning the proper use of "Its" or "It's" - one of the top five errors in English usage even to this day.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose!

[f5loar]

I didn't correct anything in the description. That's the way it was in 1924. I like the words "piquant charm" and
"singing richness". These guys were better at descriptions then the great Stan Jay at Mandolin Bros. I might mention that along with the actual photo of the new TL-1
they showed an insert photo of the Century Serenaders which was a 9 piece mandolin orchestra with one Tenor banjo player and one Tenor-lute player. That photo was hot off the press to make the '24 catalog. I guess this was an indication that the mandolins were on their way out in popularity and the banjos were on the way in. The tenor lute player would fall right in the middle!

[journeybear]

... the mandolins were on their way out in popularity and the banjos were on the way in. The tenor lute player would fall right in the middle!

I believe you hit the nail on the head there! What's that old saw about having to change with the times or risk getting left behind? I'm sure Gibson was keeping an eye on changes in the public's tastes and looking for a way to keep sales up by appealing to as many segments of the marketplace as possible. :mandosmiley:

[danb]

Here's a search of the archives that shows just the tenor lutes (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/list_mandolins.pl?tenor_lute)

We recently documented a second batch of them too. They all fall in 1924 based on how we interpret serials these days, which is to give some weight to the dates on loar signature labels. Is that valid? Perhaps not, there's certainly evidence that some of the loars weren't shipped out right away. Either way, a Loar label has a day & month on it, and those are often used to set "Between X and Y" dates

It's another topic entirely too, but we've got strong evidence that serials started at 2500 and not 1. If you take that into account and compare to other documents, it helps correct several of the old 3-pointer and inlaid-pickguard era mandolins a couple years earlier than most charts say, which also agrees with what we know from the catalogs.

[f5loar]

Dan, I think you are saying there are no '23 TenorLutes that have shown up to date and if this one starts with a 77XXX it can't be a '23 and has to be a '24 or even a late '24 that was shipped out in early '25. While we seem to nick pick on dates here I do see the importance of knowing if there are any serial no. dated '23 TenorLutes out there.
Boyles says he has one and he say Bellson says he has one. The archives says his is a late '24. Speaking of the archives you need to get back on Darryl to release some more of my photos to the archives. He's getting lazy again!

[journeybear]

Also, there is some straightening out to do at the archives concerning dates and serial numbers. When I was trying to research that broken 1907 A4 (SN 3412 but listed as 1905) there was an up to three-year discrepancy in some of the A4s. My head still hurtrs from scratching! Are the dates provided by the owners? Because if so, they need to be checked and corrected when possible.

Thanks!

[f5loar]

The dates to serial nos. can be found in several vintage guide books but as the archives finds errors they are corrected. When you find dated receipts with serial no. listed on the receipt it's hard to dispute. The guide books would need another printing to correct. There is nothing more compicated then Gibson's numbers of the 60's and late 20's to early 30's.

[f5loar]

PS: I show 3412 as a late 1904.

[danb]

Also, there is some straightening out to do at the archives concerning dates and serial numbers. When I was trying to research that broken 1907 A4 (SN 3412 but listed as 1905) there was an up to three-year discrepancy in some of the A4s. My head still hurtrs from scratching! Are the dates provided by the owners? Because if so, they need to be checked and corrected when possible.

Thanks!

Plenty of work to do there. The dates are mix at the moment, but some new evidence has come to light. The idea behind it is really to put down what we know and work forward with a conservative slow consensus.

Right now I'm *pretty sure* they started on 2500 based on a few examples we have plus a few decent pieces of paperwork/receipts/photographs with dates. Fitting in the rest in the middle is trickier, and I'm honestly letting it show confusion now to help solicit more information.

[danb]

PS: I show 3412 as a late 1904.

That could work, but I'm waiting for a few more of those receipts and stamps on catalogs to crop up. Serials 2500-2800 are hollow-necked with volutes, and match the first catalog pretty well. Past that it's complicated.. I have a couple receipts.. and a good idea of the 1909 serialization from my own 3-pointer.

I had 3263. It had no inlaid pickguard. We first thought this was very suspicious.. then I saw 3264 which is an a4 with no inlaid pickguard. A few more cropped up since then in that range, so it starts to become a documented anomaly. The same was true of the dark tortoise-like celluloid bound snakeheads. The first one looked like later work, but then enough turned up that it's now a recognized feature around serial 72000.

The 3 pointer I have with #9100 on it matches catalog F specs (and catalog F ha a 1908-1909 stamping in it from the factory), it has a "pat applied for" stamp that was replaced with a 1909 date shortly after, so I call it a 1909.

Between 2500 and 9100 I believe we have 6 years (late 1902 early 1903), and filling in the production numbers is non-trivial. The catalogs help, but they can't be trusted 100%.. even catalog F shows a cutaway over the soundhole in the pickguard on 3-pt f4s, which I have never seen an example of. The catalog also shows the violin chin rest style clamp hardware, which was gone by 1910 or so!

Regarding the tenor lutes- I have documented 2 batches of them. I would imagine a 1923 would be a first one or prototype simply based on what we've found. We also assume that there aren't any more signature batches of Loars waiting to be found, excepting a couple possible one or two-off examples, just because enough scrutiny has been placed on them that we'd expect to have found at least one by now.

[journeybear]

According to http://www.gibson.com/Files/downloads/bluebook/GibsonAcoustics.pdf‏

APPROX. LAST # YEAR
1500 1903
2500 1904
3500 1905

According to http://www.guitarattic.com/Gibson%20Serial%20Numbers.htm

1907 3351 - 4250

So I don't know whom to believe! :confused: :disbelief: :crying:

[danb]

According to http://www.gibson.com/Files/downloads/bluebook/GibsonAcoustics.pdf‏

APPROX. LAST # YEAR
1500 1903
2500 1904
3500 1905

According to http://www.guitarattic.com/Gibson%20Serial%20Numbers.htm

1907 3351 - 4250

So I don't know whom to believe!

Both of them look wrong to me :)

No examples of instruments with serials below 2500 have ever turned up, but many of them from 2500-3000 have been found. That's not conclusive, but it's certainly compelling.

Don't worry about the source, look at the evidence being used to support the conclusion (that's good general advice too) !

[journeybear]

Thank goodness I'm not in the market, just a curious observer. I was just pointing out how difficult it is to accurately date these instruments with the tools at my disposal - I have no other evidence. Also it seems the seller of 3412 is using the Guitar Attic list, which puts it at 1907. It says 1905 at the Archive, which implies you're using the Gibson list. :confused: See what I mean? It's ca-razy! :disbelief:

[danb]

Thank goodness I'm not in the market, just a curious observer. I was just pointing out how difficult it is to accurately date these instruments with the tools at my disposal - I have no other evidence. Also it seems the seller of 3412 is using the Guitar Attic list, which puts it at 1907. It says 1905 at the Archive, which implies you're using the Gibson list. :confused: See what I mean? It's ca-razy! :disbelief:

I'm not really using the Gibson list. I've extrapolated a bit from my 2500 start serial number theory, but awaiting more evidence. Basically I think they all are getting attributed too late and accomodating some non-existent 2500 instruments at the front end of the chart..

[journeybear]

Well, good for you, trying to make sense of all this. I don't envy you. Out here in Laymen Country, all I have to work with is the bits and pieces I've found on the interweb, and just trying to make sense of THAT is exasperating! :disbelief: I'd offer my assistance, as this stuff really bothers me and I like to think I'm pretty good at sorting and organizing such things (former librarian and editor that I am), but I don't see how. Still, if I can help, feel free to email me.

[Taylor and Tenor]

Even though I said I would not make another posting on this subject matter, I may have to concede that my TL may in fact be a 1924 instrument and was not made in 1923 as I was told by a member of Gibson management which I wrote down and placed in a cardboard carton along with my instrument where it was stored for 29 years. However, I feel there may be another problem with information pertaining to the Gibson Tenor Lute known the TL1 of TL4.

According to numerous vintage Gibson authorities, all “known” Gibson TL’s (tenor lutes) were manufactured in 1924. Based on information accumulated by the author of the F5 Journal and now maintained by the Mandolin Archives, there are 17 known Gibson TL’s, both the 4 string TL1 version and the 8 string instrument named the TL4.

The serial numbers of the TLs from those same records are included in a range of 937 instruments manufactured by Gibson from the first known TL1 serial number 76700 to the last known instrument a TL1 with serial number 77637. It should be noted that range included all sorts of instruments not only TLs. However, from information provided to me many years ago from the records keeper at the Gibson factory, that there were less than 90 tenor lutes ever manufactured. The known records cover only 20% of the total TL population.

A leading vintage Gibson dealer in Nashville has sold approximately twelve TL’s and has seen several others un-saleable instruments over the past 40 years in the retail instrument business. Who by the way, sold one of the TL listed which was re-sold privately and still is currently listed. The TLs were never a big ticket from a Gibson point of view. But a very rare and unusual instrument none the less.

Again from those same records, there are five listed lots or Factory Order Numbers, 11172A, 11177A, 11180A, 111802, (perhaps 111804) and 11190. There is one other four digit FON which does not appear to follow the same numbering system. The majority (six instruments) of the known TLs were part of FON 11177A. The ink stamped FONs are not easy to read and one can not be totally confident they are correct as the hand written serial number on the Gibson label. Be that as it may, the Factory Order Numbers were and are part of the known records.

There are two dates associated with the TLs. Serial number 76700, dated 3/31/1924 from FON 11172A and serial number 76851, dated 9/22/1924 (FON unknown). That equates to approximately 6 months between those two serial numbers and the processing of 151 other Gibson instruments in the interim.

There is one other Gibson instrument of note and that is serial number 77400. It is NOT a TL. However, it has the last known or recorded date in Mandolin Archives records for 1924. It is that of 12/1/1924. Since all of the numerical data has to do with the Gibson factory, one can assume it is a manufactured or ship date and not that of an owner’s sales purchase or shop sold date.

My question is this: Can one assume from the data provided that the Gibson factory processed and serialized at least more than 237 instruments in the last four weeks of 1924? According to the same records, there were seven (7) known TLs ending with serial number 77637 serialized after the non-TL (noted above).

Assuming, of course, that the date of 12/1/1924 associated with serial number 77400 is accurate and the last TL serial number is 77637. Was Gibson in 1924 capable of serializing and completing 237 instruments in the month of December 1924 when it took approximately six months to process 151 serial numbers from S/N 76700 to S/N 76851 earlier in the year? So, can be said for sure all Gibson tenor lutes (TLs) were manufactured in 1924. One must remember there were a total of 937 serial numbers 7XXXX listed for 1924 and there were 237 (77400 to 77637) instruments that needed to be processed in less than four weeks to meet the 1924 year of manufacture requirement. That’s 25% of all 7XXXX serial numbers manufactured.

Personally, I don’t give a “Tinker’s Dam” what year my TL was manufactured. It is a wonderful old Gibson. But it is any interesting question for the historians. Were all of the TLs made in 1924? I doubt it! I doubt if 237 units were serialized and completed in four weeks. Some of those instruments had to extend over into 1925. What do you think? Do you think Gibson processed 237 instruments in four weeks.

[Taylor and Tenor]

For those of you who may not know what a "Tinker Dam" is I'll try to explain.

Tinkers were and still are "traveling" people in Ireland. Today, they park their vehicles on anyone's private land alongside a public road and camp out for long periods of time. They are tolerated and protected by Irish laws.

Years ago when pots made of pewter were in use, traveling Tinkers would come by peoples homes and stop to perform the service of repairing pewter pots which had a hole in the bottom. They would form a circular dam made of wet clay around the hole in which to pour the molten metal into to make the repair. When the metal had cooled, the clay dam had dried up and was easily brushed away in a cloud of dust. Thus rendering it useless.

The expression "I don't give a Tinkers dam" has many connotations and implied uses today. It is a polite way of saying "I could care less" or "I don't give a XXXX.

[danb]

There is one other Gibson instrument of note and that is serial number 77400. It is NOT a TL. However, it has the last known or recorded date in Mandolin Archives records for 1924.

That's not correct. The last 1924 (with a loar signature label) is L5 #80416 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/80416).

The convention is to treat Loar signature labels as a good indication of date of completed manufacture. It looks like they went in before hardware and setup took place. Many of the other dates in use in the archive are based on the charts, or based on receipts and paperwork that corroborate or indicate dates to us.

I treat all of the year charts with a grain of salt because there is conflicting evidence. I'm next to certain that there are no instruments serials 1-2499, for example, so I strongly distrust any charts that include those numbers.

Logs, shipping dates, etc.. all that evidence is useful to see along with verifiable serial numbers and will certainly contribute to the answer. The goal of the archive isn't really to form an opinion, but rather to gather any information that can help form one.

[erichm]

I found this old thread today while looking for photos of a tenor lute peg head, because mine may need replacement tuners. After reading all the posts, and looking at the archives mentioned in them, I'm a bit puzzled: my tenor lute has a serial number (76501) that is earlier than all those mentioned or in the archives. The FON is 11172A, which is one of those mentioned in an earlier post. I'm new to the forum, and I don't know whether it is possible or even appropriate to resurrect this discussion again, but I'm wondering if any new information has come to light more recently about the dating of tenor lutes?

For reference, my tenor lute is a four string, although it appears that it once had eight strings; it has the Master Model label, with the Style marked as "TG", and serial number 76501, both quite clear and in pencil. The FON 11172A is clearly inked and visible through the treble F-hole. If I recall correctly, I bought it from Peter Mix of Rigel about 10 years ago.

In any case, if anyone has any more information about tenor lute serial numbers, I'd be interested. I'm also looking for information about what kind of tuners were originally installed on tenor lutes; were they Grovers? Or something similar? I've seen various photos, but nothing definitive, and a lot of the ones I've seen look like replacements. Any information about this would be most welcome.

[mrmando]

A FON represents a batch of 40 instruments. 11172A is a known batch of tenor lutes from 1924. You just have one that shipped earlier than other known instruments from the same batch.

Instruments that share a FON don't necessarily have sequential serial numbers. (The Loar-signed instruments are an exception.)

A list member recently had a tenor lute converted to a mandola and was advertising the tenor neck here on the Cafe. It had a set of Waverly geared banjo tuners with a sort of egg-shaped gear casing. Exactly like these:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200873231543?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

I don't know if all tenor lutes had those Waverlys, but at least one of them did.

[f5loar]

Since this thread started back in 2009 the new Joe Spann gibson serial no. book has been published unleashing a flurry of contradictions of the past in what many say is now the "new" guide book to go by for all things prewar Gibson. Spann still list 76501 as a number well into 1924 production. And the FON 11172A is listed in his book as a Tenor Lute however he does not say 4 or 8 string. I will add here in reference to the previous TL's listed above here that Spann says begining with serial no. 77350 was shipped out in 1925 but more than likely those had 1924 FON. The original tuners were the same type Waverly tuners with pearl buttons as used on the F5/H5 only 2 tuners per plate.

[erichm]

mrmando, f5Loar, thanks for both of your replies. Interesting to know that there's been some changes regarding the dating of Gibson serial numbers. I have a few early Gibsons from the teens - a couple of K-1s, L-1s, an A-4, A-3, a few TB-3s, and a TB from one of the first batches (serial number is "101"). I'll have to get a copy of Joe Spann's book and check my assumptions about their dates.

The 2-on-a-plate tuners make a lot of sense, now that I think about it. In fact, I see that #77596 in the archive has exactly the same tuners (with brownish buttons) that are on my trapdoor TB-3s, which have the same headstock as that on the tenor lute. The post locations match exactly also, although that might be due to the restoration to 4 string that was done just before I got the instrument. I also noted that the few photos of original cases in the archive clearly show the same swelling as in a trapdoor TB case to accommodate tuners that stick out sideways rather than backwards. Given that, I may end up swapping out the tenor lute tuners and replacing them with the tuners from one of the TB-3s.

Again, thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I appreciate the help.