A Model F-holes vs. O-hole

[Michael Butler]

What is the difference between the F and O holed mandolins? Is it tonal quality, aesthetic? Thanks. :confused:

[JEStanek]

Its a tonal difference with the soundholes. They are essentially the same volume (decibels) but the perceived difference is louder to the audience with an F hole and louder to the player with a round hole. The F holes project and cut more while the Oval holes have more sustain and a tubbier sound. Part of this also comes from the difference between using tone bars (f hole) and a transverse brace (oval hole). Add to that the difference in the tone from the bridge being more towards the tailpiece on most oval holes (with a shorter neck length (12 frets to body join vs the 15 frets to body on most f hole mandolins) while both types have the same scale length of 13.75-14 inches.

Ted has a nice review of the differences here (http://jazzmando.com/tips/archives/000141.shtml) . I think there is very little tonal differences between an F and A style (body shape) of instruments of similar woods by the same builder with the same soundholes (F or A). Tjis is open to debate, however.

Jamie

[Michael Butler]

Thanks very much. I am contemplating the purchase of a Collings MT2 and wanted to know if I should buy an F hole model or the new MTO model. Should I just sit down and play both and see which one I like more?

[JEStanek]

That, and have them both played at you by a friend or someone in the store. Also, what do you want to do with it? More open chords, less chopping, the oval hole may be a better fit, if you want to make bluegrass music, the f holes may win out.... It's all relative.

But, I firmly believe you should play both and have both played to you and decide from that.

Jamie

[oldtimestrings]

What style of music are looking to play on this mandolin? Generally, bluegrass players prefer the chop and punch of f-hole mandos, while old-time and celtic players like the sweetness, warmth, and sustain of oval-holes. There are plenty of exceptions to this, of course.

[red7flag]

I have played a Colling MTO and MT and MT2s and owned both an MF and MF5. The MTO is a very nice instrument, but sounds much like the F hole just a little softer. For me, I want a distinctive difference in my oval holes to bring out that Celtic part of me. I found that I played the MTO just like the MT2. One positive about the MTO is that is mellows out the Collings sound for me. Some here in the Cafe have commented on the "sharp" sound Collings can have. I tend to use a heavy hand, which at times is too much on the F models. But, that is my issue. No issue with Collings. They are both outstanding mandolins. For me if I were to have just one instrument it might be the MTO. If I were to have two I would get the MT2 and another brand of oval hole. Just my take.
Tony

[Michael Butler]

Thanks for the replys. I am going to try both, have my buddy try both and then decide. Either way, I don't think I can go wrong.:)

[Mike Bunting]

Get one of each if you are looking to buy.:)

[Michael Butler]

Mike B, who do you think I am Donald Trump? I will be lucky enough to convince my wife to let me buy one let alone two. But a great thought anyway.;)

[CelticDude]

Thanks very much. I am contemplating the purchase of a Collings MT2 and wanted to know if I should buy an F hole model or the new MTO model. Should I just sit down and play both and see which one I like more?

Hello Mike,

I just went shopping for a Collings, and was faced with the same choice you are. I sat down with an MT (f holes), an MT2 oval, and an MT2 (again f holes). I found almost no difference between the 2 MT2's. However, I found the MT to be quite different. My conclusion is that the wood used for the top makes more difference, at least with these Collings. (The MT uses Engelmann spruce, while the MT2's typically are made of Adirondack spruce.)

If you can, this is what you should do: find a store with the models you are considering, and play them. Also, the suggestion to bring someone else is a good one. Even if they don't play, a second pair of ears can be helpful.

BTW, you've given yourself a tough job - all 3 of these Collings are exceptional sounding. However, I did end up with the MT. It just sounded a bit nicer to me, closer to what I wanted for what I play.

Have fun,

DWP

[Dan Hoover]

Mike B, who do you think I am Donald Trump? I will be lucky enough to convince my wife to let me buy one let alone two. But a great thought anyway.;)

take your wife along also,and tell her you want to share the enjoyment of playing mandolin with her,you want her to play..it's about "being together"then after you buy both,take her out for ice cream..she'll give up after 2 weeks or so,cause you can't have nails...then your set,you have both...done deal...let us know how you make out,cause i'm not willing to try this yet...cheers

[Wesley]

Another line that sometimes works is "Darling - after I married you I got used to having the very best. And now nothing else will do".

[oldtimestrings]

I sat down with an MT (f holes), an MT2 oval, and an MT2 (again f holes). I found almost no difference between the 2 MT2's.
I have to say, that's really interesting and somewhat surprising, though I had heard that Collings ovals sound closer to the F-hole sound than is typical.

[JEStanek]

IIRC most hybrid oval hole instruments (with neck body join at 15 fret instead of 12 - thus pushing the bridge closer to the top of the instrument) have a more f hole sound with maybe a bit more sustain.

Jamie

[Charley wild]

I recently purchased an F hole. I had had a few O hole mandolins in years past. The store owner compared the F style to a laser beam and the O hole to a porch light. After he played a few of each I could hear what he meant. The F comes right at you and the O is more diffused. Kind of all around you. I bought the F but I agree with those who feel that you should have one of each. It's one of those cases where they are different but both are great! (I see or hear an O in my furture)LOL

[Michael Butler]

I'm glad this thread has garnered so much interest. As for my wife, she allows me to have my toys in other hobbies besides the mandolin so I must cut her some slack. I will be heading to a mandolin/guitar shop this weekend to try out the Collings F & O. Sounds like a railroad, the old Collings F & O line.

[Mace]

One suggestion...keep your options open, as a shop with the mandolins you are to sample will have others...after several mandolins over the years I have an oval hole Eastman A that I love. And it was signicantly less $. Test drive all the shop has to offer. Go with what speaks to you and your wife.

[Chuck Naill]

One suggestion...keep your options open, as a shop with the mandolins you are to sample will have others...after several mandolins over the years I have an oval hole Eastman A that I love. And it was signicantly less $. Test drive all the shop has to offer. Go with what speaks to you and your wife.

Good suggestion, Mace. I just got my little Eastman 504 back from being loaned out to a friend and decided to fit a Cumberland Acoustic bridge with new strings. I am always very impressed with how much it reminds me of the sound of an old Gibson.

I bought the oval hole because I like the music of Norman and Nancy Blake They have always used oval hole mandolins. Peter Ostrusko (sp) uses an oval hole for his work to. I like the sound he gets.

Something I just experienced. The Eastman has a radiused fret-board. Having been playing a flat board for several months, I immediately noticed how much easier the Eastman was to note.

chuck

[Mark Richardson]

It has only recently come to my attention (this thread) that most oval hole necks join the body at the 12th fret and ff hole necks at the 15th. The necks of my San Jaun F5 and my Eastman MD814 do just that. I have been looking for an oval hole with a longer neck without much success, I guess this kind of explains my lack of luck. Jamie just mentioned above that there are hybrids out there, ovals with necks that do join the body at the 15th fret. Can someone be a little more specific and give me some luthier or manufacturer names? Looking closley at the picutures on the Collings website it looks like the Collings ovals might join the body at the 13th fret, which maybe a small compromise in the right direction for me. My Mando Mentor Jim says it is a structural issue with the X-bracing of the oval hole model. The tops cannot take the stress of the longer neck. I like the sound of my oval hole, but I have a few awkward minutes going back and forth from my two mandolins due to the different neck lengths and the lack of a pick guard on my Eastman; I am a pinky-planter. I would like to find an oval hole mandolin more similar in neck length to my F5 with a pick guard.

TGIF

[JEStanek]

Mark,

The Eastman ovals have tone bars plus a transverse brace just behind the soundhole (at least my 2005 #22 did). Weber makes several hybrid oval holes, notably the high end Custom Vintage A. See more here (http://www.soundtoearth.com/instruments.htm). Most of the Weber models can come with customized bracing (tone bars or modified X) and different soundhole configurations. Weber is, to my knowledge, the only of the production companies that does the amount of customization a small shop/one luthier shop does.

For less money, the Breedlove (http://breedlovemusic.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=192:quartz-oo&catid=63:quartz&Itemid=177) oval hole instruments have the longer neck as well. If you consider the Quartz OO or the KO you can (espescially in the used market) snag a very good hybrid at a bargain price. Interestingly, the Breedlove Quartzs in the F hole variety don't get the praise (others say they have a voice thats not great for Bluegrass (while the FF does get good marks from Grassers)) the Breedlove oval hole instruments get high marks for having great voices. I wonder if the longer neck is part of that?

Interestingly, both the Breedlove and the Webers I've played have chunkier necks that feel very different to your narrower V shaped Eastman.

On a final note, most all of the small shop builders can do the long neck oval hole. I think I remember Steve Smith mentioning a long necked pancake Red Line Traveller (if you're willing to go flat top!). These are the two hybrid production shop makers that popped into my mind. Have fun trying some out.

On an unrelated note, every time I scrolled back up to look at your post, I felt like your dog was asking me, "Are you sure about that, pal?" Funny!

Well one last final note... a pickguard would be a custom add on to the Breedlove and the Webers too but, that's small potatoes once you get the neck and sound you want.

Jamie

[Mark Richardson]

Thanks, Jamie.

I actually played a Vintage A at Elderly in Lansing last summer, so I knew there were at least a few of these longer neck ovals out there. I just did not realize how few there were and why until now. Honestly, I have not been looking that hard. There is no way at this time that my wife would let me buy a new mandolin, especially for the amount of money that I would like to spend on a new mandolin, thinking Weber or Collings. That being said half the fun is the dreaming and the shopping. My wife and I will be going out to our seventh consecutive Telluride Bluegrass Festival next month. There are a couple of nice mando shops that I customarily stop in on our two week vacation in the Rockies.

My dog is Bela. He was a pound puppy we rescued a year ago last October. He is a faithful visitor in my music room. How many others get to go home and jam with Bela every night?

Mark