YouTube of Mike Marshall playing Altmans

[Bob Stolkin]

This is kind of a cool video for you Altman fans. This is Mike Marshall, Darol Anger and Mark Robertson-Tessi trying out three brand-new (still in the white) Altman F-5s, each with a different top. Mike chose the red spruce-topped one as his new axe.

Some interesting footage of Mike comparing the Altman to his Loar (at 4:35), and jamming with Mark.

Id3B4H6KxCo

[Elliot Luber]

Hey, the Loar sounded good too! Must be nice to have all those choices. I'd love to see the final finish when it's done. Impressive all.

[Tripp Johnson]

Man, how fun...they all sound great!

[mandopete]

Yeah, tough choice for the Gator!

[mandolooter]

he looks like a kid in a candy store!

[Bob Stolkin]

And those instruments are as green as Mike's shirt. Wait till they get beat on for awhile!

[Eliot Greenspan]

Wow, great stuff...

[mandopete]

So what is the story here - is Mike getting a new mando?

[Bob Stolkin]

Yes, as I understand it, Mike played a couple of Altmans a few months ago and really liked them. I believe he'd been thinking of getting another mando to take some of the heavy lifting off of the Loar, and Bob Altman made these three, with different tops, for Mike to choose from. He's getting the red spruce, and Mark, who is jamming with Mike in the video (and is also evidently a very good player) is getting the engelmann-topped one.

I got to meet Mike at a mutual acquaintance's place last week, and he briefly checked out my Altman, and was impressed with it as well. I had hoped that by touching it, he had infused something in it that would rub off, but no such luck.

[Ken_P]

Amazing, as always. Does anybody know which one he was playing starting at 4:37 in the video? That's a small excerpt of one of my favorite Bach movements (Allegro Assai from the C major Sonata), and one I've spent quite a bit of time learning myself. A great treat to see him on the mandocello, too (one can only watch the D'Addario video so many times :))).

[Chris Biorkman]

Those Altmans sound great.

[Elliot Luber]

It's not bad enough sitting here wishing I could play like Mike, but now I can also wish I had his ability to pick new instruments! :-)

[Elliot Luber]

I guess pickers can be choosers.

[Bob Stolkin]

Amazing, as always. Does anybody know which one he was playing starting at 4:37 in the video?

Checked with Bob Altman. That's the red spruce one.

[Larry S Sherman]

Very cool video...and nice sounding mandolin. I wonder how it will look finished? Maybe similar to Mike's Loar?

Larry

[mandopete]

Checked with Bob Altman. That's the red spruce one.

Yeah, I went back and listened to all three again myself and I liked the Red Spruce the best. Funny thing, that's what my Collings has as well, go figger!

I liked the beggining of the video with the captions, that would have been a nice touch throughout...or he could have painted a big R, E or S on the top!

:)

[Chris Biorkman]

I thought the Englemann was particularly nice. They all sound pretty awesome. That looked like it would have been a fun experiment to participate in.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

I was lucky enough to meet with Bob Altman at the same time he met with Mike for the mando tasting shown in that video. I put up a post a few weeks ago about that trip with my thoughts about the mandos here:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49739

If all goes as planned, I should have the Engelmann mando in hand in a couple of weeks. I'll make sure to take some pics and record a few clips. The camcorder microphone just doesn't do these mandolins justice!

One interesting thing I noted while playing the three was that I gravitated towards playing different styles of music on each mando. For the kind of stuff I like to play the most, the Engelmann was my overall favorite, so that sealed it for me. (Good thing for me that Mike picked the RS! :grin:) But when you have a selection of nice instruments together, you really start seeing the need for all of them...

Cheers
Mark

[Ken_P]

I had a very hard time deciding between the Engelmann and Adirondack. I think maybe I give a slight edge to the Engelmann, but I'm well aware it could be personal bias because that's what my Collings has. It would be impossible to make a bad choice in that situation, though!

[sgarrity]

They all sounded good to me. Of course it was recorded with a video camera and I'm listening to it on a laptop, so you know the sound quality is suffering. But I really couldn't tell much difference in the Englemann and Red Spruce. I'm sure they might sound more different in person and I know that they'll play different.

Sounds like Bob Altman is making one heckuva mandolin. The one that Mike chose hung right in there with his Loar. And that's saying something!! I haven't played one yet. Hope to run across one soon!

[Chris Biorkman]

Over my speakers, it sounded every bit as good as the Loar. Just my opinion. I'm a little intrigued. I really should stay off this site. It's bad for my marriage to be on here.

[sgarrity]

So many mandolins, so little time (and $$$)!! :mandosmiley:

[Elliot Luber]

Imagine what it will sound like when it's broken in like the Loar!

[Chris Biorkman]

If he's so concerned about thrashing his Loar, he should just throw a pickguard on that puppy. BTW, I've never noticed before, but his hands are huge. Maybe there's some correlation to hand size and mandolin skills. I bet Shaq could play a mean mandolin too.

[CES]

Man, anything that guy plays is gonna sound good...amazing...his left hand pretty much covers the fretboard from first position...

Awesome mandos there...while the Altmans were phenomenal already, even without the finish and some seasoning, you could definitely tell a difference when he picked up the Loar...it didn't necessarily sound better, but more even, and just a little different...don't think I could pick it out of the 4 in a blind taste test, but it definitely sounded different...

Anyway, I was extremely impressed with the Altmans...guess I'll have to add him to my list of "if I win the lottery" builders!

:mandosmiley:

[TonyP]

What I really want to hear is the difference AFTER they are finished. To my ear, they were all different, like tweeking an eq. The one Mike picked was the one I liked the best too. And to me it was louder than his Loar, but some of the same balance the Loar had, but more "forward" sounding.

Makes you wonder if there is a limit to how long a mando can be worked as hard as Mike's Loar has and just start giving up the ghost?

Thanks for posting that. That's the most instructive vid I've seen on the differences in just top material yet. In spite of the cam mic, on my studio monitors that I have hooked up to my pc, I could hear all kinds of differences in each mando. Good job. Now if we could just get an "after vid" :)

[Tripp Johnson]

I agree they were definitely different sounding, but each sounded good in it's own way. One of the most informative 'taste tests' I've heard yet.

Yeah, it would be really cool to hear them after they've been finished and even again after they've aged and been played for awhile.

[8strings]

..... All sound a bit different, but those pick clicking noises from the extended fretboards are just the same.

[Tripp Johnson]

Yeah...you're right, a click sounds like a click no matter what woods are used!

[lovethemf5s]

What were you guys hearing? I listened to the utube recording three times and possibly noticed tiny differences which could of just been my imagination. While they all sounded good, they did not sound better than lots of other mandolins being made today. Is this part of the old MAS syndrome? :mandosmiley:

[sgarrity]

I just listened again through the Bose system attached to my desktop and that made a difference. The depth and bite of the red spruce mando really came out. The sitka was darker and slightly bassier and the Englemann was right in between. Sounds a bit cliche but that's how I'm hearing it.

As for what we're hearing, to me a lot of mandos, and I'm talking F-styles here, in the $3-6k range lack depth of tone and don't have "pop" to the notes. Those Altmans have clear, defined note separation and deep, dry, woody tone and balance. There are a lot of builders out there making high quality, good mandos, many of which are a bit woofy on the bass side. There are a handful of builders making exceptional instruments with strong, balanced tone and I think Altman is probably one of those.

But I'm basing my opinion purely on pics and sound clips. I've yet to have an Altman in my hands but I certainly look forward to the opportunity!!

[lovethemf5s]

"But I'm basing my opinion purely on pics and sound clips."

pics?

[sgarrity]

I said I think he's making exceptional mandolins and provided the information on which I based my opinion, pictures and sound clips. They look great and they sound great.

[lovethemf5s]

You're right. They look good and sound good.

[Bob Stolkin]

What were you guys hearing? I listened to the utube recording three times and possibly noticed tiny differences which could of just been my imagination. While they all sounded good, they did not sound better than lots of other mandolins being made today. Is this part of the old MAS syndrome? :mandosmiley:

Curious response. I posted the video for folks to simply check out an array of great instruments being tested by a master musician. Not sure how your statement about other mandos is relevant. Also, I'm fairly certain that Mike Marshall hasn't suddenly succumbed to a feverish case of MAS.

[Dagger Gordon]

I thought the red spruce which he chose was the clear winner, but as you say it's difficult to judge too much from such a video.

[Capt. E]

Every time I go into my local shop (Fiddlers Green) I have to play one or two of the Altman mandolins Clay has in stock. Someday I'll work up the cash to buy one. The Webers, Collings and Breedloves are all nice, but Altmans are something else (The Ellis mandos too).

[jaco]

Watch the price jump on these after Marshall gets one.

[Chris Biorkman]

Watch the price jump on these after Marshall gets one.

I was thinking the same thing.

[Scotti Adams]

Quote "As for what we're hearing, to me a lot of mandos, and I'm talking F-styles here, in the $3-6k range lack depth of tone and don't have "pop" to the notes. Those Altmans have clear, defined note separation and deep, dry, woody tone and balance. There are a lot of builders out there making high quality, good mandos, many of which are a bit woofy on the bass side. There are a handful of builders making exceptional instruments with strong, balanced tone and I think Altman is probably one of those."

Ive never played an Altman mando.. would like to some day..But Ive played my fair share of very fine mandos and Im sticking to my guns that Austin Clark is building a very fine mando that has clear, defined note separation and deep, dry, woody tone and balance you speak of with plenty of big pop. Theres room for all these builders and thats a good thing. Arent we lucky.

[sgarrity]

Isn't this thread about Altmans? :confused:

[Scotti Adams]

I was just addressing your statement. Carry on.

[lovethemf5s]

Watch the price jump on these after Marshall gets one.

That wouldn't hurt current Altman owners either. ;)

[TonyP]

I hope this doesn't degenerate into a label contest of some type. And my interest is quite MAS free, I assure you, as I'm satisfied with my present mando's and asset free. :)

I appreciate something I've never gotten to experience first hand, some actual sonic comparisons by the same maker, just different woods.

I know it would have been even harder on Mr. Altman, but besides liking to hear how each one sounds after it's had it's finish applied, I wish there would have been two of each of the different types of tops, not just one of each. Just out of my curiosity if it is possible to make two mando's with same woods, and make them sound exactly the same, or close. I hear so much difference in different mando's that are basically the same, and by the same maker.

I also know that luthiers can voice the instrument to the players liking. But how much of it is repeatable? And how close?

And if it was voicing, or wood that made the difference. I use Hafler TRM6.5's as my 'puter speakers for mixing our band recordings. And through them, to me, Mr's Marshall and Anger got a lot the same tone out of each mando. They also had much the same "test", quick chord to test the bottom end. But mostly played in second position and up the neck. This is where I think as a soloist, you would tend to hang out to stay out of the "mud" where you would loose definition in an ensemble setting. And to me that's where the RS did shine, with MM's and DA's pick and attack.

If I had to describe what I heard, I'd say the RS had more of a midrange boost/presence, with the bottom and top being balanced. The Engleman seemed not so strong in the mid's, but the bottom and hi's were close to the RS, and the last one(don't remember what it was) seemed heavier on the bottom and not as hot on the mid's and hi's. I have no idea what "woodier" etc mean when people say that and other descriptions. I think more like what a graphic eq does to sound, sorry.

I also don't mind the test was recorded on a vid camera. Peter Mix did much the same with a bunch of different mando's somewhere, and with his CF mando's, and I thought I could hear pretty good what each mando sounded like. I made that judgement from one of the mando's he did, a Newson F5. And it had the same "something" that would be hard to describe, but mine has it too. The point being, I think it's pretty amazing to see and hear somebody the caliber of Mike sit down and demo some different mando's and we get to sit out front and listen to something we'd never have experienced otherwise.

Kudos Bob.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

If I had to describe what I heard, I'd say the RS had more of a midrange boost/presence, with the bottom and top being balanced. The Engleman seemed not so strong in the mid's, but the bottom and hi's were close to the RS.

Interesting comment. The general consensus in the room was that the RS was fullest on the top two strings, while the Engelmann was fullest on the middle two strings. The Sitka had the most body on the lowest two strings. "Midrangy" was used to describe the Eng. several times, and we agreed that the E string had the most body as you went up the neck on the RS.

The Sitka topped mando was the most different one in the group; the E and RS mandos were more similar, and i think that much is apparent on the video, at least. In thinking about how to describe the differences between the RS and E mandos, I thought I would add that the RS seemed to damp down the harmonics/partials of each note quicker. So when you played a long sustained note, it would quickly settle to a round 'fundamental' tone that was flute-like and really sweet. The Engelmann was much more inclined to sustain the higher harmonics for longer, so to my ear it had more complexity in the ringoff, and might have had a longer sustain for that reason.

We also had a discussion about how all these terms like woody, bright, etc. mean different things to everyone! Mike mentioned a recent book about Strad construction that talked about how these terms have evolved through the last 100 years to mean different things.

Cheers
MRT

[cedarhog]

hmm I wonder if I should have chosen a sitka top for my mandolin being built as I type, I kinda like the RS and the E. I had never heard the difference between the spruces just discriptions prior to this video.

[TonyP]

I would totally agree with your description Mark, believe it or not. I guess it's where you put "midrange", once again, POV it would seem.

Your remark about the RS and fundamentals is right on too. That's what I liked about it. So to me, because of that strong fundamental, it seemed to have more what I would call midrange. I also agree the E and RS were very a like, it was that ringoff (I love that term) that was the difference when I think about it. I personally like less ringoff, but I could see for Classical, it would be a good fit. I think of bowlback's having that complexity.

It would be interesting to play one and hear how different it would sound, sitting behind each one and how that would change how I'd pick which one I liked. Either way, a tough choice, and I'm really glad you got the one you wanted. I moved to slow once, and one got away to a pro. I kinda got over it, but it still makes me wonder how things would have been different if I'd got it, and not him.

Congratulations Mark, I hope you will post some stuff after it's finished and in your hands again.

[barry k]

Those are some fine sounding mandolins, Mr. Altman is obiviously a fine craftman, and very fortunate to have big name endorsements. I have one comment though, I never really fully understood the "in the white" thing. Owners certainlly will not play them with out finish, and the instrument will never sound the same with finish as it does raw? So, how can anyone objectively and effectively evaluate what the tone WILL be? John Hutto used to show his mandos in the white also, and I didnt understand it then either. Im not being critical , just trying to understand the "white " thing.

[Bernie Daniel]

I thought they were all amazing mandolins but a compressed YouTube video probably leaves a lot of sound/tone variance in the room.

Nonetheless the three Altmans did seem to sound "different" esp when Marshall was playing on that first test.

I thought the Loar sounded more "complex" -- but not necessarily louder -- but richer perhaps with overtones?

His Loar does not have a virzi does it?

Great video.

[Chris Biorkman]

I heard that it did have a Virzi, but the John Monteleone removed it.

[Tripp Johnson]

I heard that it did have a Virzi, but the John Monteleone removed it.

Didn't Mike and Darol remove it? I seem to recall that there's an audio tape of them 'doing the job'.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

I would totally agree with your description Mark, believe it or not. I guess it's where you put "midrange", once again, POV it would seem.

Sounds like there room for a dictionary of aurally descriptive terms in the world. I see what you mean by midrange, now, with that definition.



Congratulations Mark, I hope you will post some stuff after it's finished and in your hands again.

Definitely. Unfortunately there was not a way to record a quality audio clip during that trip for comparison with the finished product. I plan to photograph the instrument before I play anything on it, which will be an exercise in willpower for sure.

Cheers
MRT

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

Those are some fine sounding mandolins, Mr. Altman is obiviously a fine craftman, and very fortunate to have big name endorsements. I have one comment though, I never really fully understood the "in the white" thing. Owners certainlly will not play them with out finish, and the instrument will never sound the same with finish as it does raw? So, how can anyone objectively and effectively evaluate what the tone WILL be? John Hutto used to show his mandos in the white also, and I didnt understand it then either. Im not being critical , just trying to understand the "white " thing.

That's a good question, and it's something I'll be listening for. In his experience, Mr. Altman has found that the overall character of the instrument does not change very much after applying his finish on it. There was some joking around during the tryouts that maybe we should always be playing mandos in the white... If there ends up being a big difference, maybe there's something in that thought!

CHeers
MRT

[Chris Biorkman]

Didn't Mike and Darol remove it? I seem to recall that there's an audio tape of them 'doing the job'.

Maybe. I've been wrong before.

[8strings]

..... coming back to the pick clicking noises. I am wondering if anyone has ever considered having the fretboard extension laminated with particular woods to achieve a brighter or somewhat bassier clicking noise? And why not have the bass side furnished with a really long extension as well? This way one would be able to produce clicking noises on all 8 strings. And for the ultimate click noise experience, an extended fretboard all the way to the bridge.

;)

[Tripp Johnson]

Chris, hope I didn't come across as calling you out on the virzi removal, I may be wrong...seem to remember that Mike and Darol did it but maybe it was a dream. A week or so ago, my dream was Mike playing a solo gig on a partially fretless baritone guitar with a violin bow...!?!?

[Dagger Gordon]

I believe it was Mike and Todd Phillips who removed it.

There was a thread on it once.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2725

[Chris Biorkman]

Chris, hope I didn't come across as calling you out on the virzi removal, I may be wrong...seem to remember that Mike and Darol did it but maybe it was a dream. A week or so ago, my dream was Mike playing a solo gig on a partially fretless baritone guitar with a violin bow...!?!?

No worries Tripp. I didn't take offense at all.

[Bernie Daniel]

The only reason I mentioned the Virzi is because the sound of Mike's Loar reminded me of the sound produced by the 1924 Gibson Loar that Tony Williamson played on the "Sound of the American Mandolin" project. That one had a Virzi and he plays the same song then on a 1923 Loar without a Virzi -- this reminded me of that.

In the Willimason comparo the '24 sounded more complex (relative to the '23)with subtle overtones that almost gaves the impression of more than one insturment being played.

It would have been great to have been there and heard the demonstration live of course.

Certainly Altman is making on heck of a mandolin as it all three of his were holding their own against a Loar that is acknowledged to be a good one.

[Barb Friedland]

I love to watch/hear Mike play almost anything! For me it was a tough pick between the Engleman and the Red Spruce...

There's a nice looking Altman that popped up just the other day in the classifieds... :whistling:

[Tripp Johnson]

I love to watch/hear Mike play almost anything! For me it was a tough pick between the Engleman and the Red Spruce...

My feeling exactly!:)

[jealbe49]

Do not discount the one with Sitka! In a perfect world everyone would have one of each!! I have played over 20 of Bob's mandolins and would be happy with any one of them.

[Larry S Sherman]

I love to watch/hear Mike play almost anything!

Me too. I would of watched 2+ hours of them playing and talking about mandolins, spruce, and tone.

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

FYI, I posted some pictures of the finished Engelmann from the video on this thread:
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51263

Sound clips to follow in a few weeks.

Cheers
Mark R-T

[SternART]

BTW, I've never noticed before, but his hands are huge. Maybe there's some correlation to hand size and mandolin skills.

Chris......Grisman has much smaller hands........hmmmmmm :disbelief:

[jealbe49]

Congrats Mark, It will get better and better!..

[r.riley77]

To change the subject back to Altman mandolins and Mike Marshall, has anyone seen a picture of Mike's new Altman?

[MandoNicity]

Just found this thread. Wow! This was amazingly informative to me. It really clearly showed me the differences between the 3 top choices. I'm not sure if this would translate to a universal regarding the woods but it's at least a baseline I would guess. I wonder if the finished mando was ever shown on the Cafe somewhere? Oh, for me the Engleman was the winner, I would however gladly take any of them. ;)

JR

[fatt-dad]

by the red spruce f5 and for the money you save get another house. No doubt there's alot of talent in the equation, but that white red-spruce mandolin side-by-side to the Loar was quite telling. Great!

f-d

[Mark Robertson-Tessi]

JR,
I was fortunate enough to get the Englemann mando from that batch. I put up pictures last summer:
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?51263

You can listen to it here:
http://pickpluckmusic.com/mrt/altmansamples.html
and here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufFTSJfAlNk

Having had it for a year now, this mandolin has everything I could ask for, and I still am finding new ways of playing it every time I pick it up. I have yet to find its limits, and it's also still changing as it gets played more.

Also, attached is a pic of the three mandolins from the video, that Bob Altman sent me a while back. If I'm not mistaken, it's Sitka, Englemann, Red Spruce from left to right.

Cheers
Mark R-T

[MandoNicity]

Wow! Thanks so much Mark! I got more about the differences in top woods from this thread/video then I have learned over many years of playing. Great to see the 3 lined up and to get a chance to hear your engleman, which as I have said was my choice of the 3. Anyone know if Mike has recorded with his RS Altman? Thanks again.