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cedarhog
Apr-22-2009, 8:50pm
I'm sure if I admitted this anywhere near the Cumberland Highlander show I'd be strung from the nearest tree. I worked outside all day and listened to Bill Monroe for about 5hrs straight. Let me say, that in itself can make you a little loon birdy....but as I was listening I realized I can't stand Bill's mandolin "chops". Something about them drove me crazy. Many, many songs I heard this certain chop he did that was loud and irritating to my ears. I often felt his chops weren't always in time with the rest of the band. Now his melodies were great....I'm sure I'm all alone with this feeling, but I had to admit it in a room of mandolin players so I could wake up tomorrow with no guilty feelings.

cedarhog
Apr-22-2009, 9:13pm
After reading that back to myself that came across a lot more harsh than I intended it in my head. I guess the "can't stand" was not really accurate...I guess I have just heard much better chops by others. I enjoy a soothing chop.

Jim Broyles
Apr-22-2009, 9:21pm
I have been playing mandolin for a shade over 4 years, and that is how long I have paid attention to Bill Monroe. I am ambivalent about his stuff - some of it blows me away with it's artistic achievement and execution, and some of it is unlistenable. At his best, Bill 's playing is the pinnacle to which aspiring bluegrass mando pickers hope to climb, but some of it is, to be kind, less than stellar. His chop never sounded bad to me, I must say. In which songs do you find his chop to be irritating? "Soothing" is not the word which comes to mind in describing the ultimate bluegrass mandolin chop.:)

allenhopkins
Apr-22-2009, 9:50pm
1] If I listened to anything for five uninterrupted hours, I'd find something to dislike about it.
2] Monroe, as far as I have heard, pretty much invented the "chop" percussive chord, played on the off-beat, as the proper role of the mandolin in the bluegrass band.
3] He was also well-known for working with a variety of musicians, sometimes nearly a "pickup" band, and enforcing a unified beat by playing "chop" chords aggressively. He often stressed the importance of "keeping time" when discussing his music, and did it his way.
4] Monroe has been characterized as sometimes "anticipating" the beat with his mandolin rhythm, trying to drive the music and give it a feeling of speed and urgency.
5] You weren't listening to Monroe for five hours; you were listening to recordings of Monroe. How he sounded on the recording -- where his instrument was mixed, and how it was EQ'ed -- are functions of the studio, the producer, the engineers who recorded and mixed the tracks, as well as of the musician himself. Definitely Monroe would have had a lot to say about how the recording came out, but it's not like you were sitting next to him on a bench and listening to how the F-5 sounded "live in person."
6] No mandolin edict says you have to like everything Bill Monroe did. He's certainly the most seminal mandolinist in American popular (folk, country, bluegrass) music, but, despite what others may think, he's not the infallible be-all and end-all. You're welcome to your opinion; just keep your head down and watch for flying brickbats.

Gary Hedrick
Apr-22-2009, 9:53pm
One thing that Bill used to do with a guitar player that he was frustrated with was chop out of time during live shows. He could show his displeasure in a interesting was sometimes.

floyd floar
Apr-22-2009, 10:03pm
Wow man! You'd better see if you can take this post out before too many people read it. Dude, what were you thinking?!:disbelief::)
Okay,all joking aside, it's still a free country. (Though I don't know how much longer) I was just listening to Bill & BGBs this morning, Live at the Opry, from '89 when Bill was about 78 yrs. I thought he sounded remarkably great and in fine form, rhythm chops and all. Maybe you just need to listen to Bill's later recordings.:grin::)::grin:.
As a great originator of a certain style, in this case the "bluegrass chop" BM is the measure for all that follow. Yes, later people that follow will take it farther, perhaps making it sound smoother and more refined than BM's trademark rough and tumble sound. His is still the original template. It's like comparing today's jazz trumpet to Louis Armstrong in the 1920's- it can't be done because Satch is the starting point of any frame of reference for that genre. Well, that's my .02 and it's getting late and I've forgotten the point of your post! The problem I have with BM's mandolin is that in the 50's, sometimes I think the Decca recording engineer didn't tell Bill he was slightly out of tune. Ouch! Did I say that? See what you've started?

cedarhog
Apr-22-2009, 10:07pm
Well I guess if you were lucky enough to be in the audience and hear him live I'm guess that you have heard Bill the same way I have....through recordings. I got studio stuff...live concerts...duets...I think I heard enough variety to know what I heard.

If the wheel was really invented by the caveman I'm pretty sure we have better wheels today. I found several songs the chop being too late by just a split second(no big deal but it is what it is). As far as a soothing chop....Ronnie McCoury or a John Riecshman have very nice "soothing"chops....they don't make me wince. I wish I knew a song or two to support what I am talking about. My ipod is in my truck and I will listen again tomorrow and take note of the song and from what album/cd. I don't think it has to do with how the instrument was mic'd because my friend does the same chop and I don't like that either....and he tries to sound like bills chop...and unfortunately he nails it.

I'm not trying to split hairs...It just really struck me several times while listening today.

Chris Keth
Apr-22-2009, 10:12pm
Re: the recording quality. I'm in the middle of a BM biography and it mentions recording in sub-prime conditions up through the 40s even. One of the mentions is a cleared out warehouse. Needless to say, the recording quality was adequate but certainly not slick. If you want that (or as close as you can find to it), find something done when he was older.

mandolirius
Apr-22-2009, 10:28pm
It's also worth noting that, during certain periods of his incredibly long career, he rarely chopped. Listen to the recording during the Flatt & Scruggs era, where you hardly hear any chopping. Of course, the band had a fantastic rhythm all their own.

mandozilla
Apr-22-2009, 10:32pm
Geez Hog! SOOTHING CHOPS! :disbelief: Why that ain't no part of nothin'! Bill Monroe played (and invented...pretty much, this could spark another discussion on its own) BLUEGRASS MUSIC! If you want something soothing listen to classical or something. At least you had the good sense to post this in the General Mandolin Discussion Forum...Geez!

:mandosmiley:

cedarhog
Apr-22-2009, 10:51pm
I stand behind the statement "soothing chop"

here are some soothing choppers:

Ronnie McCoury
John Riecshman
Adam Steffy
Don Rigsby
Tim O'brien
Roland White
Marty Stuart
Dawg
Lou Reid
and many others

These chops are "soothing"....makes my blood flow...makes me tap my toe.

allenhopkins
Apr-22-2009, 11:08pm
Think I saw Monroe twice live. First time, he was working with a young banjo player (I think Jim Marotta), and Monroe was obviously trying very hard to emphasize the beat. The second time, he had a more cohesive band and he didn't seem to need to push as much.

What you like or don't like is your taste, and taste can't be right or wrong. I've not heard anyone characterize Monroe as "smooth," and of smooth's what you like, he didn't play that way. I wouldn't listen to his music to be soothed, and apparently you're not. I listen to Monroe to be energized, and to get to the roots of bluegrass. Can't beat him for that, IMHO.

John Malayter
Apr-22-2009, 11:14pm
First off, I agree that if I listened to ANYTHING for that length of time I'd go bonkers.......You should have shut that thing off if it bothered you.

However, I think this post would be more suited to the "banjo hangout" where they can bash big mon all day long.

There are many people here, me included who spend a lot of time trying to replicate that chop you find so annoying and believe it or not it aint easy! It may sound simplistic but as Compton say's "you have to learn to listen to monroe"

The other players who's chops are more to your appetite DO NOT sound like monroe. All are fantastic players that I like very much but while some may hit the high spots of monroe's playing, very very very VERY few actually do it well, but again its not for everybody and apparently its not for you.......

jim_n_virginia
Apr-22-2009, 11:20pm
You list a number of players who playing you like that you say have "soothing chops"

I guarentee that if you question each one the majority of your list would admit that they were HEAVILY influenced by Bill Monroe and studied him intensely.

I have learned over the years that when you want to study anything you start by studying the old masters.

f5loar
Apr-22-2009, 11:55pm
Monroe a bad chopper? Butch Robins told me some 10 years after leaving Monroe that standing beside that chop was so powerful you had to fall in the right time. While Monroe's chop was powerful it was right always. If it was off or sounded bad it's because he wanted it that way.
The smoothest chop I ever heard was Jimmy Gauderau.
Monroe grew up using only one mic and no monitors.
His power chop helped with that situation.

cedarhog
Apr-23-2009, 12:03am
Believe me I'm not at all offended by you guys implying I don't like Bill Monroe and don't understand his importance. I said I think his melody playing is great. I listened to it for 5hrs not as a torture test, but to be influenced by it and to learn how to sing some of the tunes. I love when he plays bluezy grass, thats my favorite. I don't worship him like many do.....thats why I made the tongue in cheek about the Cumberland Highlander show.........they worship him....and all things Monroe. I often like other bands doing "Monroe" instead of Monroe doing Monroe. Its all good though...I'll still have my Monroe tunes to bust out on the mandolin...and when I get to the chops...I get to chop the way I like to hear it.......and people can roll their eyes at me and say "damn his chops are so soothing"...whats he thinking.:disbelief:

I think I named the thread correctly...its obvious that it is Monroe taboo...

mandozilla
Apr-23-2009, 12:28am
I think I named the thread correctly...its obvious that it is Monroe taboo

Yeah, you're right! (Just Joshin')


I don't worship him like many do.....thats why I made the tongue in cheek about the Cumberland Highlander show.........they worship

Look, some of us have been listening to, studying, and trying really hard to stay true to the Monroe style for a long, long time. I've been a huge Monroe fan for over 40 years. But I don't 'worship' Bill Monroe...I 'worship' G**. Isn't there anything you're passionate about in life? When you say folks 'worship' that sounds like a put down to me.

I don't care if you like Bill Monroe or some of the stuff Bill Monroe did or not, that's your privilege. But I still maintain if you want to hear "SOOTHING" mandolin you probably ought to listen to classical or something 'cause when it comes to Bluegrass Music, Soothing still ain't no part of nothin'!


~o):popcorn:

cedarhog
Apr-23-2009, 12:50am
lol.......soothing doesn't mean sitting in my lazy boy listening to chops and sipping wine while I soak my feet while wearing a soft fluffy robe. I guess I must just have the wrong albums....maybe someone should suggest an album/cd that will open my mind to the chop others spend their lives trying to reproduce, because I want to believe I just have sub par Monroe recordings.



p.s. I have a $25 itunes gift card and I"m willing to spend it all on good Monroe examples.

mandolirius
Apr-23-2009, 1:42am
I have to admit, I thought "soothing" was kind a weird word to use to describe something as short, sharp and punctuated as a mandolin chop. For most people, soothing DOES mean sipping wine while soaking your feet (or something like that). I'm familiar with, and like, all the players you listed yet "soothing", as a descriptive term, wouldn't have even occurred to me. The mandolin is the snare drum of the bluegrass rhythm section. What's soothing about a snare drum?

mrmando
Apr-23-2009, 3:19am
When I think "soothing chop," I think about Paul Bunyan, Bruce Lee, Jack the Ripper, George Washington, and the Samurai Tailor, but I don't think about bluegrass mandolin.

frankenstein
Apr-23-2009, 5:04am
The mandolin is the snare drum of the bluegrass rhythm section. What's soothing about a snare drum?[/QUOTE]
When the rythm is in the ' ZONE " and just Working i would describe that as the sweet spot and therefore soothing.. rock'n,rollin' swingin' or many other names we have called musical style through the years...it works or it doesn't. The chop used in reggae can be soothing or irritating depending on how it is used.. also as mentioned bad acoustics while recording can cause a delay in your playing... so i wouldn't get to uptight about it , just listen to the stuff you like.. in your fluffy robe of course..

Douglas McMullin
Apr-23-2009, 5:15am
Try as I might, I would rather listen to fingernails on a chalkboard than Bill Monroe playing the mandolin. I respect his influence and place in history regarding the mandolin and bluegrass, but I cant get through listening to many of his recordings. I suspect it would have been different to hear him live; in general though his recorded sound is not one that appeals to me.

grassrootphilosopher
Apr-23-2009, 5:57am
...I realized I can't stand Bill's mandolin "chops". ...I heard this certain chop he did that was loud and irritating ... His chops weren't always in time with the rest of the band.
...I enjoy a soothing chop. ...

Here are some soothing choppers:

Ronnie McCoury
John Riecshman
Adam Steffy
Don Rigsby
Tim O'brien
Roland White
Marty Stuart
Dawg
Lou Reid

Cedarhog,
hat off for your guts in this heavily monroeistic community for sticking your head out. This is a great topic, because it clearly covers multiple stylistic, musical and technical questions.

For starters, I can´t sit back and listen to any of Bill Monroe´s recordings for any amount of time longer than maybe 10 minutes without going crazy... Because it moves me so that I feel the urge to get going and play myself! I cut my eyeteeth on Monroe recordings learning how to really play rhythm guitar (Edd Mayfield and Peter Rowan may well be some of my favorite pickers). No Bill Monroe record ever failed to provide a solid band which could teach you how to play bluegrass. The Country Gentlemen (even though they are among my favorite bands) allways threw me off rythm if I tried picking with them (this all refers back to my early learning days).

What you are referring to is the mandolin chop.
The chop serves as a percussive moment in the bluegrass band setting. You could compare smooth jazz drumming using brushes with Gene Krupa like drumming or even Charly Antolini like noise (forgive me jazz devotees).

The list of smooth chopsters is indicative not only with respect to the mandolinists chops but also with respect to the overall band sound. Tim O´Brian, John Reischman, David Grisman and one may definately ad the aforementioned Jimmy Gaudreau all play slick (to my ear) and play in bands that have a general slick (again to my ear) sound.

I omitted Ronny McCoury because he sounds "monroevian" to me and can spann the slick and the hard (like all the others that are mentioned, take Marty Stuart f.ex.) Now if you take Bill Monroe, he certainly left his "slick" behind in the year of 1947 when Lester Flatt and Earl Scruggs left the band. He depended heavily on the blues (that he had). Some may call that rough, unpolished (though I disagree) and some may call it personality. In later years (starting in the later 70ies) he smoothed out a little again.

Interestingly enough, Bill Monroe´s mandolin indeed DOES drive the band. There are tunes that were recorded where the recordings are wide open to interpretation!
I am thinking of the late 60ies (am I right?) recording of "Wheel Hoss", either the Sonny Osborne or the Bill Keith recording of "Pike County Breakdown", "Dusty Miller" for sure and others.
These recordings are examples of a band that sometimes revealed different opinions of the playing musicians concerning the "lead sheet" (when to play what chord, emphasis...). The recorded result may appear strange to some ears but we have that in multiple jazz recordings that are highly respected. (Just think of musical controversies about Thelonious Monk or listen to Sonny Rollins recordings).
As the musicians may not always be togehter concerning the "lead sheet", what pulls them together and forces them (better: binds them) and the tune into unity is the unmistakable power of Bill Monroe´s mandolin (chop, rythmical interludes, playing behind the lead instrument and such; because Bill Monroe did not simply chop away).

And here we have the greatness of Bill Monroe´s mandolin power. He thought his music through and as it is apparent in his music Bill Monroe´s playing was barely unintentional. He may be on the edge sometimes (like the incredible guitar technique of Clarence White) but he allways comes around.

Listening and analysing Bill Monroe´s mandolin style made me a better musician methinks.

It is just difficult to find recordings (of any artist) that provide live listening quality. For that I advise you to listen to this
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or this:
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Both recordings have a practical absense of rythm mandolin because of the fact that the mandolin was pretty much removed from the mics while the lead player did his part.
Here´s a different take and I think that Bill Monroe does some great chopping.
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and this
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This last video exemplifies the fact that Bill Monroe could drive a band and it shows his technique how it is done especially when the tune is high octane, up to speed and falls apart when not executed well. (Great band by the way and even some lead guitar by Wayne Lewis)
The Monore defence rests. ~o)

Dan Johnson
Apr-23-2009, 6:37am
my new band name:

the soothing choppers!

AlanN
Apr-23-2009, 6:38am
Didn't see John Duffey mentioned in the 'Wood-Chopper's Ball'. He had a good one. So did/does Bob Osborne. These fellows used it sparingly, when needed.

The thing about the chop: there's timing, and then there's chord tones. Some pickers show more chord tones - Monroe, Duffey, Tim O. Some show less, even doing a 'click' - Thile, Steffey, many of the newer cats. Alan Bibey is somewhere in the middle, which I prefer. Dempsey Young was in a class all by himself, had a very interesting and pleasing way of doing it, using fat voicings, unconventional shapes and sustain to enhance the band sound.

I dig it all, albeit in small doses.

Tobin
Apr-23-2009, 7:54am
Try as I might, I would rather listen to fingernails on a chalkboard than Bill Monroe playing the mandolin. I respect his influence and place in history regarding the mandolin and bluegrass, but I cant get through listening to many of his recordings. I suspect it would have been different to hear him live; in general though his recorded sound is not one that appeals to me.
That was my first impression of Bill Monroe too. After listening to him a while, though, I started to realize that there is a certain brilliance in his playing style. And, of course, you have to remember that he was pioneering a certain style which has been refined by many in subsequent years.

My problem with Bill Monroe isn't with his chop. It's with his solos. They're very "choppy" (a sloppy staccato), never flowing or clean, and rarely in time with the beat of the music. His playing style was very one-dimensional, meaning he didn't really explore the full range/extents of the mandolin or vary his style. It seems like all his solos are variations of the same thing. And am I the only one who thinks his mandolin is always out of tune? That drives me nuts. It always seems that his pairs of strings are not in unison, and that his A and E strings are a tad flat. Come to think of it, his singing is a bit flat sometimes too, especially on higher notes.

But in the end, I respect his place in history and I do like his music overall. He's got some pretty darn catchy songs that stick in my head and I can't get rid of them. I just have to overlook some of the technical criticism.

Bob Andress
Apr-23-2009, 8:20am
Y'all hear that Susan Boyle gal sing? :popcorn:

Ken_P
Apr-23-2009, 8:25am
My problem with Bill Monroe isn't with his chop. It's with his solos. They're very "choppy" (a sloppy staccato), never flowing or clean, and rarely in time with the beat of the music. His playing style was very one-dimensional, meaning he didn't really explore the full range/extents of the mandolin or vary his style. It seems like all his solos are variations of the same thing.

This is my reaction precisely. I was listening to some internet radio station a few days ago when a tune came on that I was quite enjoying, until the mandolin solo. It was incredibly sloppy, had clipped notes, missed notes entirely, and didn't seem to me to even attempt to play the tune as it was written. Imagine my shock when I found out that the mandolin player was Monroe. To make matters worse, the tune was Jerusalem Ridge, which he wrote and in other hands is one of my favorite bluegrass tunes.

As far as chops go, I could listen to Sam Bush all day even if he never played a discernible note. I've been very disappointed when I've gone to see his band when it included drums, because it meant that he would do less chopping.

Everybody must have some mandolin confessions to make. I've been afraid to admit in the past that I don't like Monroe. To top things off, I can't take much of David Grisman, either. Anybody else have likes or dislikes that they feel embarrassed about admitting?

Steve Ostrander
Apr-23-2009, 8:40am
When we put an imperfect human being on a pedestal and worship him as a god, we will always dissapointed in the end.

ralph johansson
Apr-23-2009, 8:47am
This is my reaction precisely. I was listening to some internet radio station a few days ago when a tune came on that I was quite enjoying, until the mandolin solo. It was incredibly sloppy, had clipped notes, missed notes entirely, and didn't seem to me to even attempt to play the tune as it was written. Imagine my shock when I found out that the mandolin player was Monroe. To make matters worse, the tune was Jerusalem Ridge, which he wrote and in other hands is one of my favorite bluegrass tunes.

As far as chops go, I could listen to Sam Bush all day even if he never played a discernible note. I've been very disappointed when I've gone to see his band when it included drums, because it meant that he would do less chopping.

Everybody must have some mandolin confessions to make. I've been afraid to admit in the past that I don't like Monroe. To top things off, I can't take much of David Grisman, either. Anybody else have likes or dislikes that they feel embarrassed about admitting?

jerusalem was a joint work. baker came up with most of the ideas and monroe made the decisions. he never bothered to learn it properly himself.

monroe didn't have the technique - or setup! - i believe, to play tunes with lots of detail like this one. his strength as a player lies eleswhere, and you will have too go pretty far back in his career to hear what he could do with a mandolin. e.g., take i am a pilgrim where certain inflections in his playing reflects his singing or vice versa. in his later work he often seems to be just drifting along with the beat and using lots of repeated notes.

i've always enjoyed his singing more.
but then i don't care much for the phrasing of any bg mandolin player, with the possible exception of john duffey.

ralph johansson
Apr-23-2009, 8:50am
I have to admit, I thought "soothing" was kind a weird word to use to describe something as short, sharp and punctuated as a mandolin chop. For most people, soothing DOES mean sipping wine while soaking your feet (or something like that). I'm familiar with, and like, all the players you listed yet "soothing", as a descriptive term, wouldn't have even occurred to me. The mandolin is the snare drum of the bluegrass rhythm section. What's soothing about a snare drum?


and would you hire a drummer to play rim shots only, on the afterbeat?

Capt. E
Apr-23-2009, 8:52am
There are Monroe recordings that are certainly less than stellar, the fault of the engineer perhaps? poor sound balance etc?

You have to remember that Bill Monroe INVENTED bluegrass and through his long years of playing his techniques and style did change. Regardless, I am invariably impressed with his virtuosity. Example: On the Monroe/Doc Watson live album, "Chicken Reel" blows me away every time. Monroe's chop behind Watson's runs are perfect and Monroe's breaks are freaking incredible. Not a studio recording either, but live. Live performance seems to be where Monroe shined brightest.

swampy
Apr-23-2009, 8:52am
Just my 2 cents

When I first started playing the mandolin I was very much into Grisman. Loved the jazzier stuff and really enjoyed his tone and technique. The more I delved into the mandolin, the more I listened to Monroe. The more I listened to Monroe, the more I enjoyed his playing, for precisely the reasons some folks here don't like it. It was raw power and speed. It didn't handle like a BMW or Mercedes, it was more like GTO. All muscle. That's what I find enjoyable about it.

Tobin
Apr-23-2009, 9:05am
Everybody must have some mandolin confessions to make. I've been afraid to admit in the past that I don't like Monroe. To top things off, I can't take much of David Grisman, either. Anybody else have likes or dislikes that they feel embarrassed about admitting?
It's actually kind of funny; I've been tossing back and forth in my head for a couple of weeks now whether to openly criticize Monroe on this forum. I didn't want to be the only 'nutjob' out there who doesn't idolize him as the Supreme King of Mandolin and risk being ostracized. But it looks like some of us are coming out of the proverbial closet now, heh.

Being fairly new to the whole mandolin scene, I'm also new to most mandolin artists. I only have one of Dawg's albums. And while it's not exactly my cup of tea from a style standpoint, I do at least like his technical skill. He's a clean player that can put emotion and personality in his music.

Maybe that's the thing about Monroe that bothers me. His mandolin playing kind of lacks emotion or personality. To me, what makes a true musical artist (as opposed to just an "operator") is the ability to put feeling into the music. Subtle fingerings, increasing/decreasing volume, being able to phase in and out to flow with the music... stuff like that. And I think Grisman has that ability. Monroe, not so much.

Don't get me wrong - Monroe definitely has a unique style that only he can play. But to my ears it just lacks genuine emotion, as if he's not truly feeling what he's playing. It doesn't seem to emanate from his soul. It's like he's there simply to entertain, not because he really loves the music for its own sake. It may just be my impression, but it seems that some other artists (like Grisman, Thile) are playing from the soul, but Monroe is not. Does that make any sense, and does anyone else get that impression from his playing?

GVD
Apr-23-2009, 9:36am
...Maybe that's the thing about Monroe that bothers me. His mandolin playing kind of lacks emotion or personality.

You're kidding right?


It may just be my impression, but it seems that some other artists (like Grisman, Thile) are playing from the soul, but Monroe is not. Does that make any sense, and does anyone else get that impression from his playing?

In a word NO

GVD

mandozilla
Apr-23-2009, 10:45am
Hey Hog! Trying to be kind here. Perhaps you meant SMOOTH when you said SOOTH? Would've been a better choice of words I think.


The mandolin is the snare drum of the bluegrass rhythm section. What's soothing about a snare drum?

That's a fact! Why do you think there hasn't been a big movement towards the use of drums in Bluegrass Music? 'Cause it ain't needed! Yeah, yeah I know...Osborne Brothers et al...only a tiny fraction of the whole Bluegrass pie.

To all the Monroe haters/bashers, everyone is entitled to an opinion and I respect yours and I hope you respect mine. At least you have the J**vos to voice your opinion...even if you're wrong HaHaHa. :))

:mandosmiley:

Gary Hedrick
Apr-23-2009, 11:13am
At times I am amazed at where these discussions on Monroe go. Hate him.....hold him up as the Great God Mandolinus etc. All these extremes that are expressed......

Take him or leave him, he was a force of nature in the world of mandolins. A complex genius in his own way.....a man of little formal education but with a connection into a world of music of his own making......a man who would go anywhere to play for pennies or for many dollars. But he would play.....a Loar just happened to be his tool that appeared when he needed a better tool.

He doesn't define the world of mandolin playing nor should he. He is one of the major forces in it and will be for the forseeable future but he is not the be all or end all when one speaks of mandolins.

On this board we thrash and bash around supporting or detracting him. He was who he was. His body of work is out there to be listened to and you can make up your own mind about it.

Every mandolin player should be aware of who he was and what he did but beyond that?????? It is your choice to go further or ignore it.

I want to say one other thing.......NO EMOTION????? I doubt it.......trust me, I got to see the MAN up close and personal from an early age. Stone faced at times ...yes... but he was a HOSS.....strong as a bull.....powerful.....and when they hit the stage he was in control and imtimadating all but the most bull headed of pickers....that mandolin was an axe alright......have a weak guitar player and he'd take over.....have the timing lag .....he'd take over.....forget a chord change....he'd take over....that mandolin was like a whip at times.....a direct reflection of the MAN's thoughts and directions. Like when plowing with a team of mules, that mandolin, with its incredibly high action, was his set reins...direct it here....interject this instrumental when things were lagging etc.

All that said there are many masters of the instrument that play cleaner, play more complex, that are amazing in all that they do and they deserve all the credit they get. But Bill is Bill and he will always occupy I place in my heart as a MASTER of his music and his instrument.

allenhopkins
Apr-23-2009, 11:27am
And -- name one other mandolin player that all of us have listened to.

Trey Young
Apr-23-2009, 11:42am
I was not a big Monroe fan at first, but then I heard Mike Compton. Mike's mandolin playing is in my top 3 as far as influences go. So from there I decided I should go back and listen to some Monroe. I have a great appreciation for Bill Monroe now, there are times where I definitely get what the OP is talking about and agree it is hard to listen to if you just want to kick back and have background music, but if you really want to hear someone laying it all out there, playing his heart out or if you want to study ground zero for bluegrass mando players well, that's the place to go in my opinion.

mtucker
Apr-23-2009, 11:43am
In the late 60's I was witness to a 25 minute live rendition of Time with the Chambers Bros's....now that was annoying! BM's stuff sounds pretty good to me and I've detested cowbells ever since! :crying:

Tobin
Apr-23-2009, 11:53am
I want to say one other thing.......NO EMOTION????? I doubt it.......trust me, I got to see the MAN up close and personal from an early age. Stone faced at times ...yes... but he was a HOSS.....strong as a bull.....powerful.....and when they hit the stage he was in control and imtimadating all but the most bull headed of pickers....that mandolin was an axe alright......have a weak guitar player and he'd take over.....have the timing lag .....he'd take over.....forget a chord change....he'd take over....that mandolin was like a whip at times.....a direct reflection of the MAN's thoughts and directions. Like when plowing with a team of mules, that mandolin, with its incredibly high action, was his set reins...direct it here....interject this instrumental when things were lagging etc.
No argument on those points. But I think those have more to do with stage presence than real musical emotion. He wanted to put on a good show and make sure he covered for weak points. But that's execution, not substance.

And just for the record, I don't think anyone here has said they hate him or his music. I think we all just interpret it differently. And that is, thankfully, one of the wonderful things about music. Everyone hears something different and gets something different from it. There's no doubt he was a pioneer and rightfully owns the top spot in bluegrass history.

Bob Stolkin
Apr-23-2009, 12:07pm
Whatever your particular position on the topic, it's certainly an amazing testament to the importance and influence of the man that there are already 41 posts in response in two days. No other player would generate such a conversation.



Okay,all joking aside, it's still a free country. (Though I don't know how much longer)

Personally, I'd rather not see this sort of statement in this type of forum. This (to me) belongs on a political blog.

Alex Orr
Apr-23-2009, 12:10pm
Odd that you include Tim O'Brien. He is one of my all-time favs, but his rhythm playing is all over the place...and I mean that in a good way. Not that he's off-time, but that he varies his rhtyhmic attack a lot. Straight chops, flurries of multi-string trem, boom-chick stuff that pushes the beat...I guess what I'm saying is that at least with Hot Rize, I wouldn't call his playing relaxing, which is one of the many reasons I love listening to those albums so much.

I love Monroe, and I suppose I should also concur with an earlier poster who mentioned that over his career, his "chop" could vary greatly. On the earlier cuts, there was no chop and gradually, as he basically invented the technique, it began to solidify. So if it sounds a little messy, it might simply be because the recordings you're playing are from that early, pre- or proto-chop era.

Otherwise, I don't have much to say. I've listened to a lot of Monroe and I've never had much of a problem with his chop. It's aggressive music - that's it's style. As I mentioned in another thread a while back, I've always thought that the fact I grew up listening to a lot of old punk and abbrassive indie stuff and then fell in love with Monroe isn't a coincidence. Relaxing it ain't.

As a stylist, I think the areas where Monroe could get into trouble were when he was overextending himself in the speed department. Occassionally it sounds like he was struggling to keep up with his banjo and fiddle players. The result could be a melody full of thudding notes.

Five hours of Monroe may be too much, but I know on road trips, I've probably played a couple of hours staright using the MCA box set.

jefflester
Apr-23-2009, 12:57pm
And -- name one other mandolin player that all of us have listened to.
I've never listened to Bill Monroe.

Perry
Apr-23-2009, 1:02pm
No other player would generate such a conversation.

Thile? :)

I'm surprised that only one other poster mentioned Sam Bush's chop.
In Sams' first video he demostrates different chop flavors and cites John Duffey's as one of his favs....Sam's chop sometimes has a little tick on the down beat which I like; it helps fill things up in smaller ensembles.

I'm kind of amazed that some folks think Monroe's playing lacked emotion.
Sometimes it seems entire solos where outbursts of pure emotion.

To me one of the amazing things about Monroe was how much mileage he could get out of his arsenal of licks.......just like one of the blues legends (John Lee Hooker, Muddy, Lightning) Heck some of my favorite tunes are those instrumentals he played out of A minor/modal...Jerusalem, Old Dangerfield, Scrooge, Land of Lincoln, Father's Footsteps......Monroe could turn the same few notes into a whole heck of a lot of tunes. I also admire the way he could take short cuts on fiddle tunes and capture the melody with an economical left hand. The old impressionist painting broad strokes analogy.

Gimme Monroe instrumentals all day long.....

AlanN
Apr-23-2009, 1:05pm
......Monroe could turn the same few notes into a whole heck of a lot of tunes.....


That all sounded the same (but different) :))

300win
Apr-23-2009, 1:15pm
Monroe did that chop to get drive in the music as well as the other reasons mentioned above. To me the mandolin in a Bluegrass band has to be the driving force of the timing, right on what I call the razor edge, if you don't do that you will notice that the music has a tendency to drag down sometimes. To me Monroe was unique, and yes he started it all, sometimes out of tune, yes we all have been at one time or another, sometimes ragged yes, so are we all. To me David Grisman has that funky bounce timing to his chops like Monroe but smoother. In my opinion the "drivinest" chop is Sam Bush. He can push the tune! To my ear he has the best chop of any mandolin picker I ever heard.

billkilpatrick
Apr-23-2009, 1:42pm
And -- name one other mandolin player that all of us have listened to.

ray jackson? ... (i would assume, simply out of curiosity) paul mccartney? ...

MikeEdgerton
Apr-23-2009, 1:43pm
That all sounded the same (but different) :))

Pretty much. I like that thing on the end of every break.

AlanN
Apr-23-2009, 2:06pm
Ronnie McCoury does that 'thing on the end' just about perfect.

mandolirius
Apr-23-2009, 2:06pm
I'm a huge fan of Monroe's...well, everything, including his mandolin playing. But I can certainly understand how some people don't care for it. His sound can be pretty raw, at times. To me, Monroe was essentially a blues player. The blues, at its best, has some rough edges. But the one thing I can't possibly agree with is the idea that his playing lacks emotion. Listen to the Smithsonian recordings, the live stuff. "Bluegrass Blues" is one cut that shows a lot of emotional content. "Kansas City Railroad Blues" is another.

Tobin
Apr-23-2009, 2:21pm
Whee! Looks like I ruffled some feathers with the emotion comment.

I suppose I should revise my comment to limit it to "the Monroe music I've heard". There's a lot of his music I haven't heard, and I appreciate your recommendations. Maybe some of his music does come across emotionally. But of the stuff I've heard thus far, I just find it rather mechanical.

AlanN
Apr-23-2009, 2:28pm
Well, there is Monroe emotion, and then there's James Brown emotion.

The man was stoic, country proud and reserved. I loved his sayings:

...paraphrase ahead...

"All I ask is for a man to give everything he's got."
"Keep the bluegrass down to the ground, don't get too fancy with it."
"Would you work for me for 10 dollars a week, boy?" :)):))

Chris Keth
Apr-23-2009, 2:31pm
It must be mentioned that great players tend to stand on the shoulders of giants, themselves, so to speak. You can't talk about a modern trumpet player without talking about Miles Davis. Can't talk about a modern guitarist without going through a list of influences on their playing. It's the same with mandolin and Bill Monroe. His sound and technique isn't the best by today's standards. Others have surpassed him in every way. Regardless of that, Monroe created what he did from nothing. Completely invented a musical form and a way of playing. Not many people can say that, and for it, he gets my respect.

Dave Wrede
Apr-23-2009, 2:33pm
i too don't listen to alot of Monroe. Some of it is excellent, some merely passable. i do listen to a lot of the later players already mentioned here.
i had a similar discussion with a banjo player friend of mine a few years ago. He was mad at Scruggs for stopping where he did as far as playing went. My friend was a fan of Trishka and melodic playing and i had to remind him that every person has limitations. Scruggs' limitations would only let him go so far, but it was far enough to inspire later players. The same holds true of Monroe. His limitations only let him go so far in his playing, it remained to followers to expand on his style and sort of proselytize the bluegrass music sound and style. As has already been mentioned, Monroe invented the music, created many of the standards we all play, and kept at it longer than most of us would be able to in a professional status.
Sloppiness, bad timing, too loud...i've had cars that could own up to all that.
But for all that Monroe was the beginning inspiration that drew us to this music in the first place and maybe to the mandolin in particular
(Can i get change for my .02 cents?)

Mike Bunting
Apr-23-2009, 3:04pm
I'm kind of amazed that some folks think Monroe's playing lacked emotion.
Sometimes it seems entire solos where outbursts of pure emotion.

Yes, that's about it.

MikeEdgerton
Apr-23-2009, 3:05pm
Ronnie McCoury does that 'thing on the end' just about perfect.

When Grisman is playing like Monroe he has it down as well.

billkilpatrick
Apr-23-2009, 3:16pm
trini lopez was an innovator as well ... "i wonder what trini would say."

(sorry ... it's those "feet of clay" - gets me every time)

mandozilla
Apr-23-2009, 3:46pm
I'm kind of amazed that some folks think Monroe's playing lacked emotion.
Sometimes it seems entire solos where outbursts of pure emotion.

14 Strings, THANK YOU! :grin:


ray jackson? ... (i would assume, simply out of curiosity) paul mccartney? ...

Who the H**L is Ray Jackson? And Paul McCartney sir, is NO mandolin player! He's an overrated Hack bass player, and a crummy song writer to boot, who ought to retire! ;)

:mandosmiley:

mandolirius
Apr-23-2009, 3:56pm
<I'm kind of amazed that some folks think Monroe's playing lacked emotion.
Sometimes it seems entire solos where outbursts of pure emotion.>

To illustrate the above point, check out "The Prisoner's Song", from 1951. This was Monroe's first recording session without his own band. It definitely produced some strange results. This is perhaps what he might have sounded like as a honky-tonk singer. He responds to this unusual situation with a great vocal performance and a blistering mandolin solo, intense and fiery, as though he's trying to get as much of the bluegrass sound as possible into the recording in his short opportunity. Decca made only one more attempt to record Monroe without his band before giving up on that approach, even though it was becoming the standard in Nashville.

Capt. E
Apr-23-2009, 4:55pm
Maybe it is much to do about style. When I last saw Thiele here in Austin with the Punch Brothers I was thoroughly impressed. His musical range and virtuosity is incredible. But, how can you compare that music directly with Bill Monroe? You can't do it. Equally wonderful in their respective worlds. Thiele is able to cross over. I am not sure Monroe ever tried to. No need to do it in his mind.

J.Albert
Apr-23-2009, 5:23pm
Gary Hedrick wrote:
"Take him or leave him, he was a force of nature in the world of mandolins. A complex genius in his own way.....a man of little formal education but with a connection into a world of music of his own making......a man who would go anywhere to play for pennies or for many dollars. But he would play.....a Loar just happened to be his tool that appeared when he needed a better tool"

Having recently read "The Fountainhead" by Ayn Rand not too long ago, the thought occurred to me that Bill Monroe was Howard Roarke written in real life.

That is to say, someone with a singular and unique vision who would never allow anyone else to compromise that vision.

Soothing chops....
No emotion? My *** (expletive deleted)! :)

- John

Billy1
Apr-23-2009, 5:44pm
Maybe that's the thing about Monroe that bothers me. His mandolin playing kind of lacks emotion or personality. To me, what makes a true musical artist (as opposed to just an "operator") is the ability to put feeling into the music. Subtle fingerings, increasing/decreasing volume, being able to phase in and out to flow with the music... stuff like that. And I think Grisman has that ability. Monroe, not so much.

I never heard such blasphemy :mad:

mandozilla
Apr-23-2009, 6:12pm
Maybe it is much to do about style. When I last saw Thiele here in Austin with the Punch Brothers I was thoroughly impressed. His musical range and virtuosity is incredible. But, how can you compare that music directly with Bill Monroe? You can't do it. Equally wonderful in their respective worlds. Thiele is able to cross over. I am not sure Monroe ever tried to. No need to do it in his mind.

Yes Chris T. is gifted but...Bill Monroe did not need a C.T. to "Invent" his music however, without Bill Monroe and bluegrass music, C.T. would have been an unknown tuba virtuoso or? And, I wonder whose music will have a lasting impact on the world of music?...No offense to Chris T. fans, but I doubt it will be Chris. ;)

~o):popcorn:

chasray
Apr-23-2009, 6:34pm
And, I wonder whose music will have a lasting impact on the world of music?...No offense to Chris T. fans, but I doubt it will be Chris. ;)

~o):popcorn:

The 20 year old players of today will look back 40 years from now and will decide Chris T.'s impact.

Billy1
Apr-23-2009, 6:37pm
Yes Chris T. is gifted but...Bill Monroe did not need a C.T. to "Invent" his music however, without Bill Monroe and bluegrass music, C.T. would have been an unknown tuba virtuoso or? And, I wonder whose music will have a lasting impact on the world of music?...No offense to Chris T. fans, but I doubt it will be Chris. ;)

~o):popcorn:
That'a boy Mandozilla!! I got your back this time!!
I haven't listened to very much of Chris Thile's playing.As a matter of fact I've never heard him play a complete song because he doesn't impress me. I'm not saying he can't play, he just doesn't play it the way that I want to hear it. I'm sure he's very talented and he might even be a better player than Bill, but only in playing a different style, not Bluegrass. Bill Monroe invented Bluegrass mandolin and the way it should be played and from what I've heard of Thiles, it ain't Bluegrass to me. I just wonder what Bill would say of Chris T.'s music?

Ken_P
Apr-23-2009, 7:05pm
That'a boy Mandozilla!! I got your back this time!!
I haven't listened to very much of Chris Thile's playing.As a matter of fact I've never heard him play a complete song because he doesn't impress me. I'm not saying he can't play, he just doesn't play it the way that I want to hear it. I'm sure he's very talented and he might even be a better player than Bill, but only in playing a different style, not Bluegrass. Bill Monroe invented Bluegrass mandolin and the way it should be played and from what I've heard of Thiles, it ain't Bluegrass to me. I just wonder what Bill would say of Chris T.'s music?

Where is it written that all mandolin players must play bluegrass? I'd rather listen to Chris play unaccompanied Bach than anything else. Bill might not have much to say about that, but I'm fairly sure Bach would have approved, and I can't think of a higher endorsement than that. I'd also add that Chris is already the most influential mandolin player in the world today, and that influence will be felt for a very long time.

I'd also dispute the argument that Bill created the music all by himself. Of course he didn't, because nothing happens in a vacuum. He was heavily influenced by all kinds of music that he heard growing up. He was just the first one to combine them in a new way. This isn't a put down - no artist in the history of music has invented anything completely from scratch. It's a great achievement to make a new style, but it didn't happen out of thin air.

Billy1
Apr-23-2009, 7:14pm
I'd also add that Chris is already the most influential mandolin player in the world today, and that influence will be felt for a very long time.

.
How could he be more influential than Monroe? Monroe has pretty much influenced every Bluegrass mandolin player that there is,and some musicians that don't even play mandolin, in one way or another, directly or indirectly . Can you please give us an example of how Chris is the worlds most influential?

Billy1
Apr-23-2009, 7:20pm
I'd also dispute the argument that Bill created the music all by himself. Of course he didn't, because nothing happens in a vacuum. He was heavily influenced by all kinds of music that he heard growing up. He was just the first one to combine them in a new way. This isn't a put down - no artist in the history of music has invented anything completely from scratch. It's a great achievement to make a new style, but it didn't happen out of thin air.

The key word here is He was heavily influenced by all kinds of music.....He was the first to combine them. Many artist are influenced by clay or paint. They didn't create the clay or paint , yet when they combine that clay with shape, or paint with canvas, they are the creator of the art.

Samjessin
Apr-23-2009, 7:35pm
This recording is awesome! Hey look, a young John Hartford?


[QUOTE=grassrootphilosopher;658311]Cedarhog,

It is just difficult to find recordings (of any artist) that provide live listening quality. For that I advise you to listen to this
kSHzgaCqM-o

mandozilla
Apr-23-2009, 7:41pm
Where is it written that all mandolin players must play bluegrass?

Uh...the OP was about Bill Monroe wasn't it?...All players don't have to play bluegrass music. But I'll tell you what, though I like listening to classical music, I do not follow classical music and know almost nothing about it.

And since I know almost nothing about classical, I would never talk smack about about Evan Marshall or any other classical player. You don't have to like Bill Monroe or his music to at least acknowledge his influence on American music and have a little respect for that.


Chris is already the most influential mandolin player in the world today, and that influence will be felt for a very long time.

Hogwash! :))

~o):mandosmiley:

Samjessin
Apr-23-2009, 7:43pm
Bob - You just did the same exact thing. Just thought I would let you know.






Personally, I'd rather not see this sort of statement in this type of forum. This (to me) belongs on a political blog.

Mike Bunting
Apr-23-2009, 7:47pm
There is a live mando workshop from the Gaslight Cafe '66 where you can actually see the sparks fling off HIS mandolin.
BTW, some of may be interested in a new social group I just started.

Samjessin
Apr-23-2009, 7:50pm
I really enjoy listening to Bill Monroe and feel that his playing reflects his personality very strongly. Although I have never met the man, his playing complements the stories I have heard and read perfectly. If I were to hear him play a solo that sounded more like the modern stuff it would not match his personality.

Anyhow, not to start nothing, but Monroe didn't invent a thing. Banjos were picked in bands with mandolins, fiddles, guitars, and harmony for decades already. Monroe and his band certainly had an influential style but so did the Carter Family, Blue Sky Boys, Skillet Lickers, Fiddlin' Arthur Smith, Mississippi Sheiks, and Leake County Revelers.

What Monroe did, well not him, but people who enjoyed his music and success, was to homogenize acoustic music.

I will admit, more bands need to carry a baseball team with them, that is tough!

mandolirius
Apr-23-2009, 7:55pm
The key word here is He was heavily influenced by all kinds of music.....He was the first to combine them. Many artist are influenced by clay or paint. They didn't create the clay or paint , yet when they combine that clay with shape, or paint with canvas, they are the creator of the art.

Yeah, I think the word "create" is the difficulty. I mean, he certainly didn't create the twelve notes that he used to make bluegrass. He didn't invent the instruments and there was bluegrass-like music around before he started The Bluegrass Boys, including his own music with brother Charlie.

But the fact remains that, before hitting on the right combination with Scruggs, Flatt, Wise & Watts, there was nothing that was called bluegrass. If you read Neil Rosenberg's "Bluegrass, A History", it outlines how and when the term "bluegrass" came to be used to describe a musical style. Some people may be surprised to learn it wasn't until well into the 1950's that bluegrass was identified as a separate style of music from any other.

So you can argue about terminology and such, but when all the evidence is weighed, I think it's fair to say Monroe created bluegrass. Certainly it's true that no other single individual played such a pivotal in establishing a style of music.

Billy1
Apr-23-2009, 7:59pm
Anyhow, not to start nothing, but Monroe didn't invent a thing.




:)):)):)):)) That's funny right there, I won't even bother with that one!

man dough nollij
Apr-23-2009, 9:02pm
Troll, anyone?

Samjessin
Apr-23-2009, 9:10pm
I promise I'm not "trolling" here.

What did he invent? A large percentage of Monroe's material is cover material. His originals ARE original, but they are based very heavily on a pre-existing structure.

Monroe is great, but he didn't invent a thing.

Monroe hired Earl Scruggs and Scruggs certainly added drive to the band, but this wasn't a drive that hadn't existed in acoustic country music before.

Check out Earl Johnson's Red Hot Breakdown or Sourwood Mountain, that is tight, rhythmic, and full of drive.

I definitely don't want to start a "what is old-time music argument," because Bill knows that ain't fun, but what did Bill Monroe add to acoustic country music?

For instance, listen to the Monroe's Gospel Ship as compared to the Carter Family's. I feel like something is lost in the Monroe version, it feels a little rushed. Now, on some other "rushed" songs, like Watermelon on the Vine, I like the faster speed, and it fits, but quickening things sometimes hurts Monroe's listenability.

To suggest that Bill Monroe was the first white mandolin player to take a combination of square dance fiddling and black blues influence and combine them is absolutely absurd. Check out the Allen Brothers to hear the mixture gone completely Aray! Good thing they didn't become the Gold Standard! Again, what did he add to the music?

In the 40's Monroe definitely combined these old-time dance music elements, blues elements, and a elements of newer forms of music like Honky Tonk and early Rock and Roll, but he didn't stray very far from the structure. Three chords, hard driving, full of raw emotion, GREAT, but nothing out of the ether. I am tapping my foot to Heavy Traffic Ahead right now and enjoying the heck out of it, Chubby Wise is playing a great solo right now, but it is nothing Bluer or more hard driving than the other stuff that comes up.

You can't blame (honor) Bill for the handfuls of bands that came up in his mold. Now, there are some really innovative banjo players to come up in Bluegrass after Scruggs like Don Reno for instance, but bluegrass bands for a good decade or two stuck to the mold and even now bands that stray have to withstand mobs of Monroe "traditionalists" telling them they are heartless and unemotional (oh, pity) if they stray to far.

E-mail me for "Monroe Ruined Bluegrass Music" shirts.

mandolirius
Apr-23-2009, 9:10pm
It's still a terminology question. Did he "invent" anything? On one level you can argue that he didn't. Personally, I don't think the word invent really applies to music. To me, an invention is more like a product. Create is a word more applicable to music, but even that can be problematic for some people. Monroe himself would often describe the birth of bluegrass something along the lines of "...when I was coming up with bluegrass music" or words to that effect. I think it's a process and there can be no doubt that he was right there at the forefront. Before the Flatt/Scruggs band there was nothing quite like bluegrass, incluing previous editions of Monroe's own band.

woodwizard
Apr-23-2009, 9:10pm
Just read through all 76 and all I can say is ... wow! Call me crazy but I haven't heard a Monroe played tune/song that I didn't like in some way. His stuff just make's me want to grab my mandolin and start pickin'. There's so much drive, excitement & energy going on there and no one else was doing anything like it until Big Mon created this thing we call Bluegrass. I guess to some it's a required taste like scotch or something that you have to get use to... To each his own I guess... Oh... by the way I like Scotch too.

Samjessin
Apr-23-2009, 9:12pm
Man Dough Nollij, way to make a person feel like they can discuss something on this board without being called a "troll."

JeffD
Apr-23-2009, 9:15pm
But for all that Monroe was the beginning inspiration that drew us to this music in the first place and maybe to the mandolin in particular
(Can i get change for my .02 cents?)


Well some of us anyway.

I was playing mandolin for a couple of years before I ever heard of Bill Monroe or heard any bluegrass.

JeffD
Apr-23-2009, 9:27pm
and listened to Bill Monroe for about 5hrs straight. Let me say, that in itself can make you a little loon birdy....but as I was listening I realized I can't stand Bill's mandolin "chops"..


I have an MP3 filled with old time and bluegrass, classics and contemporary, from all time periods.

After lots and lots of listening, I discovered I like Bill Monroe the most when I can detect the old time roots the strongest, and when he seems almost effortlessly to bring a new intensity to an old music. At other times he seems to be "trying" too hard to play like Bill Monroe, he almost seems to be a parady of himself.

man dough nollij
Apr-23-2009, 9:31pm
Man Dough Nollij, way to make a person feel like they can discuss something on this board without being called a "troll."

It's all in good fun. I get a kick out of how threads mutate into yet another "Thile ain't no part of nothin'" discussion.

Me, I think it's crazy to spend $35 on a pick! :grin:

Edit to add: Samjessin, it wasn't particularly directed at you, anyway. And thanks for posting that old YouTube clip-- some awesome playing on that one.

Lee

allenhopkins
Apr-23-2009, 9:31pm
... what did Bill Monroe add to acoustic country music?

Bluegrass, I guess.

Bluegrass is not a complete, radical departure from all other forms of pre-existing music. If that's what it takes to be an "inventor," I doubt you can find a handful of true "inventors" in music, from Brahms to Charlie Parker to Bob Wills to Chuck Berry. None of them qualifies.

Monroe's synthesis of old-time country, blues, string band dance music, and gospel was pretty radical and progressive for the 1930's and '40's. Did he sound like other musicians? Sometimes. Did a helluva lot of musicians try to sound like him after he "invented" bluegrass? You betcha.

This thread started out as a critique of Bill Monroe's mandolin style, but it's gotten into challenging his importance and his uniqueness. Seems to me this is the rankest revisionism. You can like or not like his music, but how the heck can you say he's not an important innovator? Jeez, guys (and gals), how many of us would own a mandolin were it not for Bill Monroe? Honestly? If there wasn't a genre of music called bluegrass that featured mandolin playing, I probably would have left that Gibson A-1 in my grandfather's attic...

Ah, who am I trying to kid? When have I ever left an instrument behind?

mandozilla
Apr-23-2009, 9:34pm
Now, there are some really innovative banjo players to come up in Bluegrass after Scruggs like Don Reno for instance,

Buddy, if you don't know that Don Reno was going to join the Blue Grass Boys in 1943, 2 years before Bill ever heard of Earl Scruggs, but got drafted, then I guess you don't know a whole lot about bluegrass music.

Oh, and BTW, when Bill Monroe and his Blue Grass Boys stepped on the Grand Ole Opry stage in 1939 there were NO bands or acts that sounded like them and thats a fact! :grin:

~o):mandosmiley:

mandozilla
Apr-23-2009, 9:46pm
Monroe's synthesis of old-time country, blues, string band dance music, and gospel was pretty radical and progressive for the 1930's and '40's

...and British Isles balladry, and Scots-Irish fiddle music, and tin pan alley songs, and jazz, and swing, and Black Spirituals (in addition to Gospel), and field hollering, and whatever else we (Allen and I) left out...A pretty unique blend and highly influential.

Just ask Chuck Berry, and Buddy Holley, and Elvis Presley, and Waylon Jennings, and Dizzie Gillespie, and Paul McCartney,and many (if not most) of us on the Cafe, and others too numerous to mention. :grin:

~o):mandosmiley:

Mike Bunting
Apr-23-2009, 9:52pm
That Fincastle video with reno sounded good, but for fate, banjo players would all be playing Renostyle.
Sam, you have to forgive ManDoughy, he lives with penguins.

Samjessin
Apr-23-2009, 9:57pm
Alright, I got the Don Reno chronology wrong. Maybe it was Earl Scruggs who ruined bluegrass music!

All in good fun, there are more important things to argue anyhow such as who invented Crunk.

Billy1
Apr-23-2009, 10:00pm
Oh, and BTW, when Bill Monroe and his Blue Grass Boys stepped on the Grand Ole Opry stage in 1939 there were NO bands or acts that sounded like them and thats a fact! :grin:

~o):mandosmiley:
" Bill, if you ever leave the Opry, you'll have to fire yourself " George D. Hay, Solemn Ol' Judge ,1939

Ted Eschliman
Apr-23-2009, 10:00pm
Time for a little cooldown. It's late, at least for those of us in the longitudes closest to Cafe Headquarters.

Bedtime.