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stanley
Aug-03-2004, 9:16am
Its not my intention to start a flame war or some bashin' fest...so please try keep your posts on topic...

Anyway, I'm fairly new to the mandolin world & I've always wondered what the 'facination' is with handmade independent mandolins. I love looking through the 'eye candy' and seeing photos of recently puchased handmade mandolins...most are incredible works of art. BUT, I just couldn't imagine placing a build order on a mandolin that I wouldn't hear or play for months (or years?). It seems like a pretty big risk.

So, I'm just wondering who has bought independently made instruments and why. Perhaps you can help me understand the benefits and drawbacks with this option.

Thanks,
Bill

Atlanta Mando Mike
Aug-03-2004, 9:27am
Do you mean who has placed an order wih a small maker or do you mean who owns a mandolin by a small indie maker?

stanley
Aug-03-2004, 9:45am
Both I guess...

I'm kinda thinking about an upgrade sometime and I guess I like the idea of supporting the 'small guy'. I'm just worried about the risk...how do you know its going to sound, play, and look good? Unless you've played one...

grandmainger
Aug-03-2004, 10:00am
You can ask people who have a mando by that builder already...
In terms of sound, I guess it is difficult to predict what it will be like, but if that builder has managed to produce a few good mandos, chances are you'll get something as good.
When it comes to playability, you'll find it is easier to get a small builder to customise an instrument to suit you. Play around, find the specs that match your style best, and talk to the builder about them.
And then for the looks, again, it would be more flexible with a small builder... you can pick you wood, finish shade, etc... rather than being restricted to the few options offered by larger companies...

As a personal preference, I'll go for a small builder... in part because I like to be different, in part because I want something that's entirely mine, in part because they may turn out to be another gilchrist or dudenbostel, and in part because I want to support young/small builders...

my 2 cents...

Germain

danman
Aug-03-2004, 10:19am
I had a mandolin built for me by John Hutto. I decided on one of his after hearing/playing a few of his earlier mandolins. One belonged to Dempsey Young and another to Jesse McReynolds. It was one of the best decisions I have ever made. He built it to my specs/tastes and I got the sound I had been looking for. That was in 1983 and I still think that it is the best instrument I have ever played.
There is a certain risk factor in any custom job, be it musical or other items. I think the risk is mimimal if you use someone who is reputable and has proven themselves. Keep in mind a good builder wants to maintain high standards.

phynie
Aug-03-2004, 10:36am
I have a moon beam made by glen robertson being built as we speak. I was lucky enough to play an earlier mandolin of his that sounded great. There is no way to determine what the insrument will sound like before it is built but, if you get to play another one of theirs you can kinda gt an idea. If my mandolin sounds anything like the one I played I will be VERY happy. I would try to go to festivals or things like that and check out if the builder(S) you are considering have a booth there. That way you can test out their stuff.
And to answer the question about the long wait, It stinks. But Glenn provides pictures of the process (as do other builders) which keep you drooling while you wait. Hope my rambling helps a little.

Jim M.
Aug-03-2004, 10:39am
I've certainly played Gibsons, Rigels, Webers, Collings, and Breedloves that are great instruments and that I would buy. Also, keep in mind that none of those "big" builders are all that big compared to most manufacturing businesses, and that they all offer custom or build-to-suit options that you would have to wait for too.

Having said that, I have a personal preference for smaller builders and agree with all of Germain's statements. The waiting period is part of the process, and it can be kind of fun to see pictures in process. Also, every small builder I've bought from (Old Wave, BRW, Brentrup, Newson, Freshwater, Crump) offered a trial period. If I wasn't happy with the instrument, I could have returned it. And unless you're buying from Dude, Nugget, or Gilchrist, the wait can be as short as 3 months to maybe 18 months or so for a Brentrup now. I've been happy with all my mandos from small builders (even the ones I don't own any more) and would highly recommend the process.

Big Joe
Aug-03-2004, 10:50am
Let's see, I've owned instruments from a couple of small builders. Gilchrist. I ordered it sight unseen with some custom specs. It took 14 months to get it in 1995. It was everything I imagined and more. Then I've had a couple from Gibson...another small builder who does custom work...and they have been all that one could ask and more. Just because it is made by one of the big names does not mean it is not hand built or that there is some factory pumping these babies out. Each of our instruments is hand made and we do custom work all the time. Just thought I'd add my two cents. I cannot speak for all builders, just us.

mrbook
Aug-03-2004, 10:59am
I have never commissioned an instrument to be built, but own and have owned several instruments by independent makers, including guitars and banjos as well as mandolins. I always look at independently-made instruments in music shops and sales lists, and I have found some good ones. Asking someone to build one is a different matter, for #each instrument is different, but I have owned some interesting instruments that were really the personal expression of an individual builder. They are fun to play, and often stimulate conversations because of their uniqueness. I've owned Gibsons and Martins, too - a good instrument is a good instrument.

ira
Aug-03-2004, 11:05am
ordered based on look, ability to customize, reputation of sound and reliability, cost and references (asked for many).

darn happy with my decision. minimal i would change if i went back (more esthetic- i wasn't hip to quilted maple).
ordered from doug dieter at:
kennaquhair.com

but that said, you need to be comfortable with the decision to buy a one of a kind that you've never played. even with a good reputation, each mando will be different.

peace,
ira

grandmainger
Aug-03-2004, 11:44am
Talking about small builders... there is a nice looking 'blonde' on the classifeds right now... Anybody know of that fellow's other instruments?

Lee
Aug-03-2004, 12:03pm
Let's face it; you've got to feel some enjoyment in the adventure of working with a small builder. If you don't like the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
Also, if you're looking for certain special features, gravitate to the builders who are known to do them well. Don't choose a builder then request something way out of their ordinary.

Lee
Aug-03-2004, 12:09pm
Grandmainger, I saw that blond F too. His #17; he's been at this for a little while. Wonder what he calls it; "The Rowland"?

phynie
Aug-03-2004, 12:15pm
that blonde f-5 is sharp!

Bobby Brite
Aug-03-2004, 1:15pm
I ordered a Glenn F-5 Varnish based on the high reviews of a friend of mine that playes with Raymond Fairchild. I couldn't ask for anything better IMO. Bryan Sutton and Tim Crouch both own Glenn's as well.

stanley
Aug-03-2004, 1:16pm
So, BigJoe has got me thinking at bit...

Are builders trying to achieve a certain 'desirable' tone (I guess I'm thinking the 'gibson tone') and build to certain specs (loar style?)? And if this is the case, then why not have a custom job done by Gibson?

Or, are builders trying to achieve a tone of their own, and are these tone styles recognizable as unique to that builder?

Is the tone / spec assumption true?

Thanks again for my ramblin', I hope this makes sense.
Bill

Bobby Brite
Aug-03-2004, 1:33pm
Well the maker of Glenn has tried to stay as close to the Loar specs as possible but I do not think that any builder wants to create an exact tone. My Glenn mandolin has that traditional woody tone and a bite to go with it. It is similar to the Loar tone but not exactly. The price of a Glenn is also great. I would love to own a Gibson eventually but my Glenn is a keeper.

P.S. I had a Flatiron Festival F that I sold after recieving my Glenn.

Don't worry Joe. I will be buying from ya'll in the near future. MAS will show its ugly face again. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

djeffcoat
Aug-03-2004, 4:20pm
I ordered a Woodley F5 from Doug Woodley after seeing pictures of his work at the Twelfth Fret (Toronto) website. I queried the CoMando list for information about him. Based on the recommendations of some list members whose opinions I valued, I ordered sight-unseen through the Twelfth Fret, I spoke with him by phone and told him what I wanted and 18 months later I had what I consider to be a world-class mandolin. One of my considerations was the favorable exchange rate between Canadian and US dollars. I am not sure if Woodley is stiill making mandolins but I pleased with the risk I took in ordering from him.

Atlanta Mando Mike
Aug-03-2004, 4:26pm
Play lots of mando's-go to gatherings where mando's will be. Find some in your area you can try. I am a firm believer in try it then buy it. I have played mandolins from all of the big dogs that i didn't like-Gilchrists, Loars, Monteleons, new gibsons, Heidens, Apitius etc. i've also played a mando of each of the above brands that i really liked and would have bought if i had the money at the time. There will be a mandolin that speaks to you if you have the patience to wait for it, work for it and don't rule anything out.

WireBoy
Aug-05-2004, 2:10am
My F style is from an independent builder, Will Parsons. I bought it (used) from a dealer, (our very own Dale) because it listed a very critical spec: 1 3/8" @ the nut. Its uncommon to find that in an F. I was very close to commisioning one until it popped up on the classifieds here. I had to have the wider fingerboard. I took a chance that it would sound OK. It all turned out fine.

Dagger Gordon
Aug-05-2004, 6:03am
I have 2 commisioned instruments from English builder Stefan Sobell - a 10 string mandolin and what he calls his 8 string cittern.

When I first got one of his instruments, it was a fairly straightforward decision. His instruments were routinely played by every Scottish folk band so you knew what they sounded like, buying them in music shops was not an option and there were few other luthiers doing that sort of thing.

I had enough faith in Stefan's ability that the instruments would turn out fine and they did.

If I were relatively new to the mandolin world I don't think I would order from an independent builder, largely because I wouldn't know exactly what I wanted. A very specific spec like Wireboy has just outlined is the sort of thing you might realise you wanted as you got more experienced.

I would try to play as many as possible at jams, make a note of what you preferred and perhaps try to buy an instrument directly from another player. I'm sure there are enough pickers who have too many mandos and might be quite happy to sell one to a good home. I must admit to sometimes being a bit surprised at the extent some people suffer from MAS!

Flatpick
Aug-05-2004, 6:11am
I have a Sargent Mandolin made by Cliff Sargent. This is the one that was on Ebay and I am restoring it. Doing the work myself. This is the first Mandolin that I have owned with a Varnish Finish and Radiusd Fingerboard.
The reason I purchased a Sargent is because I had heard so much about the Tone of this builders mandolins. It indeed has a dry woody tone. Very nice sustain and moderate to loud volume. It mics into an SM57 very nicely. It needs some refinish work and binding on the headstock, tuners and bridge replaced. Plays easily.
I'm very happy with my purchase. Flatpick

Dfyngravity
Aug-05-2004, 6:30am
im a red diamond owner. havent posted pics yet because i dont have a camera, but when i get my hands on one ill post some pics.

Aug-30-2004, 9:39am
I am in the same boat as alot of people. #Looking for the mandolin! #Or at the least the mandolin for my price range. #I've looked at the major manufatured mandolins and honestly ordering a custom mandolin from a large factory is a scary thought. #I am sorry to say the consistency is not always there. #I can't afford the gauranteed (Sight unseen) mandolins such as Gilchrist, but I do want a great mandolin. #I'm always finding good mandolins here and there, but the great ones are few and far between. #Currently Moon Beam Mandolins (http://www.moonbeammandolins.com) are at the top my list. #I drove to visit Glenn (http://www.moonbeammandolins.com/contactus.html) about a month ago. #Of course, I did take a couple of mandolins for comparison (Collings MF5 and Pheonix BG). #I was very impressed with Glenn's work. #Very loud and uniformed sound.

ootee1
Aug-30-2004, 12:06pm
Curious how the Phoenix stacked up against the Moon Beams you played? What year is the BG?

Aug-30-2004, 1:33pm
Thanks for asking ootee1. #Most Phoenix mandolins that I have played including the BG ’03 #I currently own are light #feeling and sounding. #Although the tone is pure the #sound is slightly airy. #Whereas the Moon Beam Mandolins that I have played are loud and punchy. # Moon Beam makes a very aggressive mandolin with pure even tone throughout. #I honestly can not tell the difference in an open and fretted note. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

Aug-30-2004, 3:28pm
I have a Kimble and it rocks http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

jim simpson
Aug-30-2004, 4:23pm
I have a Sim Daley that I bought from a friend. You can see it on Sim's website in the hands of Dan Tyminski. I was hoping some of Dan's and my friend Richie's talent would rub off on me. I'm still waiting!
It is Sim's basic model similar to the Gibson F5-G in that is has no binding on the headstock, neck or back. It has a dark sunburst and the sound is astounding. A fellow bandmate said that it was a Marshall stack!

pickinNgrinnin
Aug-30-2004, 6:34pm
I have a Bill Davis F5. Here is the thread if you want to see some pics: http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin....t=17552 (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=17552)

This is my first Mandolin from a Independent builder. I bought it used but it is exactly how I would have ordered it new. Bill's work is amazing. There a a couple of his F5's at Mass Street Music. Check them out on the website.

Scotti Adams
Aug-30-2004, 6:47pm
..ya'll know what I have...and Im expecting another one just like it..in varnish...soon..

Aug-30-2004, 6:50pm
Hey Scotti, can you tell the difference between an open & fretted note on your BRW ?........

Aug-30-2004, 9:28pm
Oh wow this is an absolutely great post.....
I love posts like this one.

Aug-30-2004, 9:33pm
Did you hear about the new Moon Beam called the Eclipse? I hear its real Dark sounding.. HA http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif sounds like ####

JimRichter
Aug-31-2004, 12:00am
To paraphrase Maverick:

I have a Henderson and it rocks!

Jim

Scotti Adams
Aug-31-2004, 4:16am
Hey Scotti, can you tell the difference between an open & fretted note on your BRW ?........
...depends on what fretted note Im hitting...most of the time they are pretty close...because it rings that well..

jasona
Aug-31-2004, 11:30pm
I have a Laura Ratcliff, and I note she is now selling a new one in the classifieds. And no, I am not financially connected to her at all; just a happy owner! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

jimbob
Sep-01-2004, 12:49am
I am in a similar situation...new to the mandolin but bitten hard...I have a weakness for nice instruments and have several nice guitars and a pretty good old RB-250. I now have a Yellowstone that I really like, but still wanting to add to my collection so while I continue to shop around , I am eagerly waiting for my turn to come up on Jim Hilburn's list...the craftsmanship and dedication to the art will be worth it to me. I think having a one-off instrument made just for me will be cool...Twinkle-Twinkle....will never sound so good !~!

Frank Russell
Sep-01-2004, 9:26am
I'm gonna have to throw my hat into the ring for my new Old Wave f-hole A model. I've had it about three weeks, and like the old cliche says "it gets better every day." Bill was an absolute pleasure to deal with, and the workmanship is equal to or better than anything I've owned so far, including Flatirons (Festival F, Artist A), Webers (Gallatin, 2 Bitterroots, Absaroka, Beartooth), Gibson (A5G, F9, A9), and a Givens A4 I have on indefinite loan. The volume and tone is above any of the above mentioned, and I only mean the ones I owned, not your own particular instruments, so don't get peeved. I have never been happier with a mandolin, or with a maker. Now if I could only afford one of Bill's F models. Anyone interested in a well-worn Kettler F? Frank

Greg H.
Sep-01-2004, 10:54am
I have a Rattlesnake (http://www.rattlesnakemandolins.com/) and it's a killer (Ok, pun intended). It is a great mandolin--I like it a good bit better than either the Dearstone or the Apitius that preceeded it.

fatt-dad
Sep-01-2004, 11:09am
Having recently acquired a Stiver A, I love it! That said, I am living without it as he is doing a refret, radius and new bridge. No doubt, he is a great builder.

f-d

Lee
Sep-01-2004, 11:12am
Frussel, that's quite an endorsement! I posted my stable's occupants recently so let me add that my newest acquisition, Old Wave oval-A, also sits with the best. And like Jasona, my Laura Ratcliff A is also a tremendous value that merits a very honorable mention. #Most definately the independant builders, both the prolific one-man shops and the less prolific one man (or woman) shops will fill a market niche that the biggies can't.

Frank Russell
Sep-01-2004, 11:36am
Lee, I hope I didn't fool anyone into thinking I still have all those mandos. Unfortunately, all are past history except the Bussmann, Givens and Kettler. Frank

ericwall
Sep-01-2004, 12:55pm
I couldn't resist. Like Jim Richter, I have a Henderson A5 with the woodiest sweetest tone. Great Loar copy. I just got a Fletcher Brock F5 that I can't put down. Amazing tone and simply exquisite beauty. If I had a digital camera, I'd offer pics. I played it at Wintergrass "in the white" and loved it then. Now in it's varnish finish, it's even better. Now, I've got to find an oval hole that I can trade my Lebeda F5 for (if I can part with it). Then I'll be done.
Eric

Brian Ray
Sep-01-2004, 2:08pm
I have two mandos built by small builders and am waiting for my third (and trying to resist a fourth!).

I have a Rose, a Laura Ratcliff and I'm expecting my BRW soon...

Why? Well, I like the idea of getting exactly what I want (or think I want). My experiences with small builders has been fabulous. Gibson who?

Some advise...
1. Talk with the builder... do you get a good vibe? You'll need to trust them!
2. Know what you want or ask the builder's advise
3. What do other owners say about these mandos (add 1 grain of salt to this and ignore morons)?
4. Prepare to endure the excruciating wait

Sep-01-2004, 4:21pm
Well, I probably dont have to say much about mine seeing weve had a few post on it and its pissed some people off for some reason, But hey heres the link anyhow.
Its the best mando Ive ever played.....
http://brunkalla.com/MANDOLINS.html

jim simpson
Sep-01-2004, 5:47pm
frank (frussell),

Don't tell me you're willing to part with your new Kettler? I really struggled on whether to bid on that one or not. How is it after owning it for a while?
Jim

Frank Russell
Sep-01-2004, 10:26pm
Jim - I'll PM you with a review. If I do decide to sell it, I don't want to hijack this nice thread with a cheesy sales plug. I'm serious about the Bussmann though, it blows me away every time I pick it up. Frank

THP
Sep-01-2004, 11:33pm
I have a San Juan #7 that I use as my main axe now. I have had it in the Alps, Key West and out west where it is very dry and it’s very consistent and stable in all weather conditions. It’s made by Bobby Wintringham from Ouray CO.
The tone is incredible and playability is amazing.

I wanted to get some custom work done (shaping of neck) and went to his shop and he did it with me right there. Zero waiting. That was a huge bonus!
I am amazed that this mando is just over a year old and the tone is as if it where 70 years old!
San Juan Mandolins (http://www.sanjuanmandolins.com)
pretty cool indeed
Anthony
www.hickoryproject.com

mandroid
Sep-01-2004, 11:45pm
I have an H5 mandola made by Greg Biller walnut neck back and sides, sweet. and previously got him to build a 4 string solid body electric,for me, [the one on the emando pix thread] http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
..and a Lebeda 'jazzica',f5 http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

Spencer
Sep-02-2004, 8:08am
When I was looking for a different mandolin some years, I visited several makers, and played several of their mandolins. #I felt that each different maker built with a basic tone "personality", found in each mandolin of that maker, though there are differences between individual mandolins of course. #So you could get a general picture of the type of tone you would get by ordering an instrument from that maker. #I suppose that each builder develops techniques and preferences, and kind of zeros in on things.

You don't get this impression from a new maker, but then you will probably get a better price.

That said, I bought my current mandolin as the first one I ever heard from Victor, and has since confirmed his instruments have a "tone personality". But in the end, nothing beats playing the instrument before you buy it!

Spencer

fatt-dad
Sep-02-2004, 9:34am
Yeah, but how many of you have a Yasuma? Small shop located in Japan, used various lables, but consistent quality.

f-d