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gibson mandoman
Mar-19-2009, 8:48pm
Seller has a refinished, suppose to be a Gibson F-5 from the 1930's. Looks like a copy to me. Seller states in the listing there is no label on the inside with serial number. Has "The Gibson" on the headstock along with Flowerpot. What does everyone think? May'be Tom Isenhour and Darryl Wolfe will give their expertise regarding this mandolin. Here's a link to the auction:
http://http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-1930s-Gibson-F5-Mandolin-w-Case-F-5-Flame_W0QQitemZ250392833666QQihZ015QQcategoryZ1017 9QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

MikeEdgerton
Mar-19-2009, 9:56pm
The link is bad, can you post the Item number?

gibson mandoman
Mar-19-2009, 10:10pm
Oops, sorry about that! Here is the item number: 250392833666

man dough nollij
Mar-19-2009, 10:23pm
It looks pretty nice. Hopefully somebody can date it based on these pics.

gibson mandoman
Mar-19-2009, 10:25pm
Yes it does look nice. I just had my doubts about it being a Gibson.

MikeEdgerton
Mar-19-2009, 10:27pm
Don't borrow Mafia money to buy it. Everything about that looks wrong.

man dough nollij
Mar-19-2009, 10:33pm
I know there are quite a few builders who made copies like that. It doesn't look like a '30s Gibson to me, but I'm pretty ignorant. :confused:

Who all made clones like that? Givens? Randy Wood?

J.Albert
Mar-20-2009, 5:24pm
Mike wrote:
"Don't borrow Mafia money to buy it. Everything about that looks wrong"

I'll call your bluff, Mike. What specifically is wrong?

Tailpiece cover could be a replacement. Tuner bushings aren't right.

Even if this isn't original, and even if it's only a copy, it still looks to be a very nice one. Whatever it's origin, this mandolin stands on its own.

If not Gibson, I'm wondering who the builder was?

I happen to think that it looks great. I'm wondering if it sounds as good as it looks.

Hmmm...
The _original_ version of the Goldrush? :)

- John

JeffD
Mar-20-2009, 5:31pm
I am certainly no expert, but the only things that looks Gibsony, are the peg head and the tail piece.

And if someone is putting Gibson on something that ain't Gibson, I'm not buying it.

MikeEdgerton
Mar-20-2009, 6:18pm
I'll call your bluff, Mike. What specifically is wrong?

Let's start with the easy stuff. Look at these pictures of known Gibson F5's with labels and serial numbers from the late 20's through the mid 30's. See anything glaring and I'm not talking about the one piece back or the color? Unless Darryl pops in with some magical explanation about the glaring difference that I'm not aware of, there's a problem with the one on eBay. Then if need be we can take it apart. Some stuff is really telling when you look at it next to known originals. By the way, is that young man holding that mandolin a young Darryl Wolfe?

mrmando
Mar-20-2009, 7:07pm
The heel button and lower point are out of whack, for starters. And the scroll doesn't look right.

MikeEdgerton
Mar-20-2009, 7:11pm
I was just starting out with the heel button Martin, did ya have to give the rest away too? :))

MANDOLINMYSTER
Mar-20-2009, 7:22pm
The F holes look to big and the scroll looks odd, I also agree on the back button and lower point.

MikeEdgerton
Mar-20-2009, 7:24pm
Anybody have a problem with the peghead shape? It might be an optical illusion but the right hand scroll looks off as well.

barney 59
Mar-20-2009, 7:27pm
I am certainly no expert, but the only things that looks Gibsony, are the peg head and the tail piece.

And if someone is putting Gibson on something that ain't Gibson, I'm not buying it.

It was pretty common in the 1970's for amateur builders to put "The Gibson" on the headstock. There were hardly any professional builders of mandolins at that time. (if this one is that time) There was no real "vintage" market then and they were building them for themselves. They didn't see themselves as forgers. Some of these literally took years to build and sometimes came out really nice. If the price stays within reason on this, even if it's not a true Gibson it could turn out to be a great mandolin.

MikeEdgerton
Mar-20-2009, 7:42pm
Compare the f holes.

barney 59
Mar-20-2009, 7:50pm
Looking at the two pictures side by side it's not just the f holes it's really everything! The scroll ,the head stock, every point and curve is off a little and sometimes a lot. O.K. it's not genuine but it still looks like a decent and probably handmade mandolin.

f5loar
Mar-21-2009, 12:02am
If I'm not mistaken the '37 on the left above belonged to mandolin legend Dave Apollon. ;) But back to the 30's F5 on ebay. Too bad the original label just fell out. That's why Gibson used an ink stamp no. in lower Fhole with the Factory Order No.:disbelief: I guess the experts at this Guitar shop missed that number. NOT! You don't need me or Darryl to tell the world this is a very nice fake.:grin: Oh so close, yet oh so far away. Or should I just say not even close! I don't even get where they got 30's. Looks more like a Loar copy to me. "The Gibson"logo,dot fingerboard, silver parts just shouts Loar to me. 30's have block fingerboards and gold parts. And I don't think I've seen a 30's with a Flowerpot with "The Gibson"logo. You would think these guys would know better but if you look at the photo at the bottom of the ad of these guys it's either high elevation in Denver is effecting their clouded judgement or they are smoking something wacky in those photos.:whistling:
All original parts? Give me a break on that one.
Label fell out? They only wished it had. They even lied about the case. It's a 70's not a 60's. I hope Dave Harvey gets the lawyers at Gibson going after this one. These guys have no business being in the business of selling musical instruments. No bonus for these guys this year/:))

Bernie Daniel
Mar-21-2009, 6:58am
JAlbert: I'll call your bluff, Mike. What specifically is wrong?


Well you gotta admit John you got a pretty through answer to your question. But it sure is fun to see these things picked apart isn't it! :)

MikeEdgerton
Mar-21-2009, 9:13am
If I'm not mistaken the '37 on the left above belonged to mandolin legend Dave Apollon.

Thank's for weighing in Tom. Dave's 30's F5 was a cleaner copy than Sam's. :)

lenf12
Mar-21-2009, 10:28am
Are those Waverly tuners? If this obvious "copy" goes for $1000, it's a pretty good deal. If the bidding gets all crazy, then somebody will be getting ripped off. I'm with Tom on this one. This mandolin has never seen the inside of the Kalamazoo, MI factory. The specs are more 20's Gibson rather than 30's Gibson so perhaps a comparison to a Loar era mando would be more appropriate. Then you can see the glaring differences even better. The scrolls and points are all wrong. I've never seen a 1 piece maple back on a Gibson from that era and darn few on modern Gibsons.

My 2 cents,
Len B.
Clearwater, FL

f5loar
Mar-21-2009, 12:29pm
Had these knowleable sellers approached this with a simple "we have a very nice Loar copy F5 from an unknown builder" we would not be discussing this here.
What they are saying under the authority of being a music dealer is this is the real thing made by Gibson in the 30's and that to me is plain and simple fraud. I've stated my 2 cents to the seller so we will see if it gets pulled or revised or if Gibson's lawyers get in on the action which is what I hope happens so maybe next time this dealer won't lie about what they are selling. And I have no doubt this is probably a great sounding/playing copy probably by some well known builder in his early days. But right is right and this is wrong.

Timbofood
Mar-23-2009, 9:47am
It may have seen the inside of the Parsons St. building, just not assembled. So many parts got the "Johnny Cash" experience you know, "I got it one piece at a time, and it didn't cost me a dime..." Parts that were destined for the bandsaw or fire box "escaped" and were "put together" by someone that really had little experience, talent, or scruples.
I agree with most of you, it just "doesn't look right"

f5loar
Mar-30-2009, 11:40pm
Looks like this one was ended on ebay without a sale.
Anybody know why (other than it was a fake)?

mrmando
Mar-31-2009, 5:31pm
Ooh, it's back (http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Gibson-F5-Mandolin-w-Case-F-5-Flame-Maple_W0QQitemZ220388073282QQihZ012QQcategoryZ1017 9QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem).

We stopped the auction because we got alot of e-mails pertaining to the year and some people questioned the authenticity of this mandolin. Our local experts, here in Denver, (after having it in their hands) seemed to think it is real. But, some of our eBay bidders questioned it. We know it is old. We know it is well made. We know it sounds and plays great. We know it looks like it was refinished. We are calling it a Gibson F-5 mandolin because we do not know what else to call it. If it looks like a duck etc.....So please bid accordingly...And if you are an "EXPERT" just bid or don't bid. Please don't tell us how wonderful your knowledge is. Instead, go start a club with Stephen Hawking. We are starting this auction off at $1.00 with NO RESERVE. If you are afraid of this mandolin at all, please don't bid.

Well, as this thread demonstrates, you don't need to be an expert to spot the problems with this instrument. All you need is the ability to compare it against photos of authentic 1930s Gibsons.

Why would this seller assume that the buck stops with their "local experts" in Denver? (Aren't those "local experts" aware that several talented luthiers built copies like this in the '60s and '70s?) Why not try to get hold of David Harvey at Gibson?

So even though the seller has received detailed explanations of why this couldn't be a Gibson, he's still insisting that it is, the "experts" notwithstanding. We've got a clear case of counterfeit/copyright infringement/eBay policy violation here, although nothing short of Gibson contacting eBay is likely to get the ad taken down THIS time.

Scotti Adams
Mar-31-2009, 5:47pm
"Why would this seller assume that the buck stops with their "local experts" in Denver? (Aren't those "local experts" aware that several talented luthiers built copies like this in the '60s and '70s?) Why not try to get hold of David Harvey at Gibson? "

Not to play into this..but..does anyone remember the not so quite typical Gibson F5 that David Harvey played while with Larry Sparks??..the blond one that didnt have the typical body size and shape ?? It didnt look the part.....but it was. Strange things happen. Personally I think its not a Gibby for the obvious reasons....but who knows.

Eddie Sheehy
Mar-31-2009, 6:04pm
Mandubitably Mandubious...

laddy jota
Mar-31-2009, 6:14pm
Stephen Hawking is coming over tomorrow night at 8:00 to talk about string theory. We are thinking about starting a little club if anyone is interested.

mrmando
Mar-31-2009, 6:31pm
I'm in! Can't make it to Gnashville so I'll have to teleconference. I'm sure Stephen can show us how.

Eddie Sheehy
Mar-31-2009, 8:06pm
Oh Goody! I hope we'll discuss string-bending and quantum picks. Tele-include me in.

f5loar
Mar-31-2009, 10:00pm
Dave's one off 30's Gibson was not trying to be Loar copy.
It had the look of a 30's. This one does not. You would think after many so called ebay "expert" bidders told them it was fake they would at least get a 2nd opinion from a noted expert in the field of mandolins. For $50 they could find out for sure and start the biding at $10,000 vs. $1. I think there is a lot of "I really don't know what it is but it sure says it's a Gibson so Gibson it shall be" going around in the high country. I am stll shocked Gibson has not shut this one down.

gibson mandoman
Mar-31-2009, 10:46pm
Mr. Isenhour, I appreciate your expertise regarding this mandolin. I didn't think it was even close to being a Gibson. Especially not a 30's era Gibson.

f5loar
Mar-31-2009, 11:58pm
No expertise on this one was needed to determine it was fake all the way around. Why a blind man could feel it and tell you it was a fake. I guess if Gibson Co. does not step in here and shut these fake dealers down for selling it as a genuine Gibson F5 then it will be sold as such and will continue life as the real deal for another generation to find out it's a fake. I just hate seeing people being taken like this. Some poor soul who does not read about here on the cafe will buy this thing for a few thousand dollars and think he stole a real Gibson F5.

f5loar
Apr-01-2009, 12:02am
2 hours after I reported it to ebay as being a counterfit and fradulent use of the Gibson trademark it has been removed. Let's see if it comes back again.

AlanN
Apr-01-2009, 5:03am
All I can say is Gibson is lucky to have you watching their back, Tom.

laddy jota
Apr-01-2009, 1:57pm
Stephen Hawking said that it was indeed a Gibson, but in another dimension.

man dough nollij
Apr-01-2009, 7:46pm
Shirley MacLaine said it was indeed a Gibson F-5. In another life...

mrmando
Apr-01-2009, 8:46pm
George Lucas said it was a Gibson a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.