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mcashion
Jul-31-2004, 8:33am
Okay, now that you have all supported me in my future church playing, I find that the hymns are written mostly in A flat and B flat. Here's the problem...the chords in those keys are really tough. Do I capo and play in a easier key like A or G, or do you folks have some easy fingering alternative for those two keys? I swing between being a purist with no capo, and just wanting to be able to play. I normally don't play in those keys in old time.

pdlstl
Jul-31-2004, 9:15am
If you can learn Ab (or any closed key), you should be able to play in any key. #Playing in Bb is exactly the same as Ab except one whole step (two frets)higher. Everythng is identical. No capo needed. Capos are for those who aren't willing to take the time and effort to learn closed positions.

That's the beauty of the mando being tuned in fifths.

Ted Eschliman
Jul-31-2004, 9:32am
Closed Position fingering is not as hard as it seems!
Once you unravel the "secret," you'll discover there are ONLY Four Positions (http://members.aol.com/teesch/FFCP.html). Then you just move them up and down the fretboard or across strings.
Learn A in closed postion, and all you do is move it down one fret for Ab, E becomes Eb, etc.
It's just a matter of slowly building strength in your pinky over time.

mandocrucian
Jul-31-2004, 10:25am
Easiest way to get immediate results - make your mandolin a "transposing instrument" in a similar way that clarinet, sax etc. are.

Tune your mandolin a half-step lower Gb-Db-Ab-Eb. #That means the key of Ab plays just like A, #key of Bb just like B.

Or, Tune your mandolin a half-step higher: Ab-Eb-Bb-F. This makes life even easier: The key of Ab fingers just like G, Bb major just like A. #This is like putting a capo on the 1st fret, but without shifting the position markers relative to the fingering.

The is no LAW (only dogma) that say a mandolin must be tuned GDAE. #If you are playing in Ab and Bb all the time, it just makes sense to (temporarily)adjust your tuning in order to get better musical results.

Niles Hokkanen

(But it still is a good idea to work/practice playing in all keys in one particular tuning.)

John Flynn
Jul-31-2004, 10:56am
I have been playing church music nearly every Sunday for 25 years and I am right with you about the keys you have to play in. While I respect the other opinions given above, from experience I have found those ideas more limiting than liberating in actual practice in a church music group. Learning to play all closed positions and closed chords is laudable, but it won't happen overnight and you need to decide if it is worth the effort for the way you see your musical development in the future. It will not help you this Sunday or the next or the next.

As far as being in a different tuning, the problem there is then you can't go by the chord charts or sheet music, unless you have re-learned the fretboard in that tuning. Also even if it is fine for that one key, say Ab, but what happens when the next piece is in D or A or G? You can't be changing tunings in the middle of a church service.

I know I run afowl of the purists by saying this, but I have found a capo is the perfect solution for church music. BTW, I only use a capo when playing in church, to deal with the unique problems of that genre that you described. I never use a capo at jams or in my old-time string band.

An anectdote: Our chior leader is ABD for his PhD in Music from Washington University and plays and teaches guitar professionally. He plays all genres: classical, rock, jazz, country, you name it. He is a great musician, can play closed in any key and he is very much a purist. When he started as our chior leader, he did the "purist thing" and would not use a capo. Within six months, he was using one. He said to the effect: "I can play in all those keys, but with all that competes for my attention leading the choir and with all the key changes we do, a capo lowers my mental workload and allows me to pay attention to other things." In the end it's the sound you make that counts, not how you got there.

mandocrucian
Jul-31-2004, 11:43am
Hendrix and SRV often tuned their guitars 1/2 step low. On "Machine Gun", Jimi tuned a whole step down. #There are all those DADGAD guitarists, and others who use open tunings for slide or blues. Martin Carthy has that unique low CGCDGA tuning, and Roger Tallroth (of the Swedish group Vasen) has and ultra-low Aa-Dd-Aa-Dd-aa-dd 12-string.

Yank Rachell tuned down by a minor 3rd to E-B-F#-C#. #I tune my national to Eb-Bb-F-C because the instrument sounds so much better down lower than up at GDAE.

Andy Irvine, when he was playing a lot of mandolin, usually used G-D-A-D and (on mandola) C-G-D-G. #(I tend to keep my cheapo "El-Kabong" mando tuned to G-D-A-D, for convenience, rather than tuning down one of the Gibsons.)

When I got my 1919 Gibson A (as a spare) 11 years ago, I originally intended to keep it tuned to F-C-G-D or to #altered tunings. #However, when I developed a preference for the wider no-truss rod fretboard and I began playing it much more the F4, it went back up to standard. #My old Flatiron mandola is strung up Gg-Dg-Aa-EE, while the Weber is standard mandola tuning.

NH

mcashion
Jul-31-2004, 12:49pm
Wow. Thanks. I know the major closed (chop) chords of D,A,G,C,
and E. I think see what you mean about sliding it down a half step for Ab. You would just keep the same closed position and move the whole thing down? The idea of returning is also appealing. So if I get this right, I could tune the whole thing down a half step and play like I was in A, but really be in Ab. I have three mandoins, so tuning one down for those tunes wouldn't be too much bother. I knew about alternate tunings for the fiddle, but never thought about retuning the mandolin. Niles, your answer was really helpful. So were all the others. I guess it will depend on how fast I can learn the fingerings and how many tunes in each key we are playing. I have until August 29th, so I have some time. I really didn't like putting the capo on the third fret...the sound was just too high.

Ted Eschliman
Jul-31-2004, 1:48pm
Okay, I guess I understand why folk instrumental styles (BG & Celtic as examples) would do well to stick to a dependence on open strings with the diatonic nature (and its benefits!) written into the music itself. I sort of understand the tuning down, heck all Marie would need is 9 more mandolins, and she would have access to all 12 keys...
My bias (and that's exactly what it is, opinion only, and that plus $2.63 gets you a decaffe latte at Starbucks) is those that are tackling seven or eight keys in a session (some Clasical/Romantic Period music and jazz do that within one song) are going to the trouble of mastering those "foreign" keys anyway.
If you get it into your fingers, eventually, it's also less wear and tear on the brain.

mandocrucian
Jul-31-2004, 2:23pm
Ted -

When was the last time you remember a clarinet or sax player was calling out tunes in the key of B? #I bet if he/she was playing a "B" tune horn instead of Bb or Eb instrument, there would be plenty of jazz tunes in the keys of B and F# - cause fingering Bb on a sax or clarinet is analagous to playing the G major scale on mandolin. #(And playing a C-sax is considered ultra-square,.....fine if you're apsiring to be Boots Randolph (who played C sax ).)

And that's why there is a heavy bias toward the flat keys in swing/jazz.

NH

Ted Eschliman
Jul-31-2004, 3:20pm
When was the last time you remember a clarinet or sax player was calling out tunes in the key of B?
And that's why there is a heavy bias toward the flat keys in swing/jazz. #
Agreed, Niles.
But we aren't talking Bb clarinets or Saxophones, here, but Church Hymnals. These were written for the convenience of (often musically illiterate) congregations who have this uncanny ability to sing in the key of Ab. No stopping those hymn writers, B natural, Db, it's all over the map. (And as Marie will tell you, hard on mandolinists!)
Plus, the church organ players love keys of F# & Gb; then they don't have to play any of the white notes on the keyboard....
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Ted Eschliman
Jul-31-2004, 4:00pm
Oh, and Niles, you would have to mention "Boots Randolph..."
Now I've got "Yakety Sax" running through my head, and I can't get it out...


http://208.56.81.158/bootsrandolph/images/bootscd.jpg

Cruel!