Good jam last night

[AlanN]

For the first time in a good while, got into a good jam last night. Vernon Allred (of the talented Allred clan), Wayne Edwards, Don Jones on bass. What a pleasure to play with guys who know when to come in and back off. Even FMB sounded good :mandosmiley:


Was beginning to wonder...

[Mike Bromley]

Was beginning to wonder...

...if FMB sounds good?

BGB much better, substitute F and C chords for E minor....

I STILL can't fathom FMB for mando, with Paul Warren's fiddle ringing in my brain.

[AlanN]

One of the good breaks to FMB I have is on a 1978 CG live show from Montclair State U. Doyle gets that 3-5 double stop on the middle strings to open it, I did that last night and Vernon nodded at me. O, to get the nod from a pro...

[mandozilla]

This comes up quite freqently at jams I pick at whenever FMB is played. :grin:

When I first started pickin' BG music (rhythm guitar) around 40 years ago, my older brother, who was a "real" trained musician told me that although the lead instruments' "melody" (since it's a B****O tune I use the term melody with a bit of a smile on my face :grin:) uses an Emin, Lester played an EMaj on the rhythm/accompaniment. ;)

At that time I watched my local Socal Guitar Heroes carefully and they, for the most part, played an EMaj on the accompaiment and that was good enough for me. :cool:

Now today, if I play rhythm guitar when FMB is played, I still use EMaj and this has sparked some lively debate aming my fellow pickers. I think the EMaj on the guitar played against the Emin on the lead instruments sounds better/more interesting than both playing Emin. So what's the real deal? Is it E min and the EMaj is just a California thing or what?:mandosmiley:

[Mando a Mando]

Don't mean to send this thread veering off course. I'm amongst those few who enjoy playing FMB. It's pretty easy on the mando and there's a lot of space to mess around with it, including mocking the banjo player. (And who would pass up an opportunity to do that?)

I always played the Em, too. I was watching "Bonnie and Clyde" not long ago and heard F&S do something very different there. Finally realized the accompaniment was using Emaj for the second chord against the minor in the lead. Really gave it a punch--a completely different feel. I thought it was done that way just for the movie soundtrack, but found that it was recorded like that on their Mercury recording done back around '49. From what I could find over at the Banjo Hangout, Flatt would sometimes use the Emaj, sometimes the Em, but Emaj seems to be the original. I guess the Em just became the standard over the years, because it sounds "correct". I tried to get our band to play it that way. They paid me the usual amount of attention and continued to play the Em.

I agree it sounds more interesting. In fact, I think the Emaj is really the hook for that tune. Even the bass seems to be playing a G# to emphasize the discord. Much more edgy using the Emaj. So, no, it's not just a SoCal thing.

Werter Willis

[Bruce Stein]

That is very interesting. I will try the Emaj during our next band practice. I just was working on a mando part for FMB last night. We used it as an intro into I've Just Seen a Face by the Beatles. Same key and same chord structure. Try it. Very cool.

[AlanN]

I 'understand' the use of the major, but to my ears, it changes the number. From a casual listener perspective, it's just enough to cause some minor gastro-intestinal discomfort, but from us picker's POV, that one fret difference makes all the difference. Similar to what some folks do on Jerusalem Ridge backup on part IV at the end, throwing in a D major. Changes the flavor, although it's still an ice-cream cone :)

Also on FMB, where folks come back with the G chord seems to be open to interpretation.

[mandopete]

Speaking of FMB on the mando - this guy (starts at 4:21) does a pretty job IMHO

FO5wqXx2wRw&e

[farmerjones]

The first time i heard the Emaj against the Em brought up was John Hartford.
He was aware that Lester did that on purpose. I do know John was pretty good friends with Earl.

[mandozilla]

Bruce said;
"I will try the Emaj during our next band practice"

Bruce you probably already know but just to be sure, I was talking about the rhythm guitar playing Emaj. I've tried it on the mandolin but to me it sounds a bit harsh and strident... :confused:

Alan said;
"Also on FMB, where folks come back with the G chord seems to be open to interpretation"

Alan, yah, 4 or 6 beats on the Emin? Out here most folks stay there for only 4 beats. I beleive F & S originally did 6 beats and that's what I like...I think it sounds more...err..right...anyhow I do 6 beats (on rhythm guitar and/or mandolin) and it doesn't seem to conflict, sound wise, with everyone elses 4 beats. :mandosmiley:

[Jim Broyles]

I 'understand' the use of the major, but to my ears, it changes the number. From a casual listener perspective, it's just enough to cause some minor gastro-intestinal discomfort, but from us picker's POV, that one fret difference makes all the difference. Similar to what some folks do on Jerusalem Ridge backup on part IV at the end, throwing in a D major. Changes the flavor, although it's still an ice-cream cone :)

Also on FMB, where folks come back with the G chord seems to be open to interpretation.


Yep. Makes it into "Sunshine Mountain Breakdown" instead of "Foggy Mountain Breakdown" :)

I like to come back to the G on beat 3 of the second measure after you go to the Em. Like this: G 2 3 4 - G 2 3 4 - Em 2 3 4 - Em 2 G 4 - Em 2 3 4 - Em 2 G 4 - D 2 3 4 - G 2 3 4. We would consider E major "wrong" at our jam, although both ways back to G are heard.

[Michael Ramsey]

I played a benefit breakfast the other weekend. Aaron Ramsey-guitar, Patton Wages (Bradley Walker band) on banjo, David Wiseman on mando and myself on bass.

We had a request by a young banjo student to play Foggy Mountain Breakdown and did so for the young man.

During the tune, me and Aaron were switching back and forth between him playing the E major against Patton's E minor and holding the extra beats in the E chord before returning to the G and then next time through, we'd switch to the more modern EM version.

I loved it, with the tension it creates. That's the part that sets the Flatt & Scruggs version apart from most others. But, in later years, F & S switched to the more modern sound with the E minor and the earlier switch back to the G instead of the aforementioned version.

Now, to further pry back the lid on this can of worms, was Foggy Mountain Breakdown written off of Bluegrass Breakdown? Probably so. But I like them both.

I know that FMB is a worn out, tired, old workhorse, but it's good to see folks that don't know too much about the music you're playing, begin to smile really broadly when they recognize the tune. Maybe they'll start paying attention to the other music you might play.

Doing those differing chord structures helps to keep it interesting for those of us who have been playing that song for decades. Me included.

[Jim Broyles]

Well, this is pure conjecture, but I'd say that Flatt & Scruggs said, "We were the Blue Grass Boys, and we did Blue Grass Breakdown with Monroe, now we're the Foggy Mountain Boys, so let's do a similar song and call it Foggy Mountain Breakdown. I like them both too. My favorite part of the original FMB is the fiddle break, when it goes back to G after the D.

[mandozilla]

From now on I'm stickin' with the E maj and extra beats if I'm playing guitar cause that's the way I like it!

I was jamming last night, FMB was played (it was a banjopalooza last night) and that's how I played it.

Afterwards I aksed what people thought. Some older pickers were happy to see/hear it played that way. :) Some younger pickers never heard it before and liked it alot. :grin: And a couple of not so young, not so old guitarists said it was BS and that F & S never recoreded or played FMB that way. :disbelief: ...whatever... :mandosmiley:

Oh and BTW, I agree with Jim. FMB is BGB only different...Scruggs played both exceptionally well...for a B***O picker. Ha Ha Ha :))

[wannabethile]

I heard that the original version/recording of the song was recorded with an E Maj..
I heard that they later started playing it with the E Min. and that the only reason that they did otherwise was because when the song was still new Lester didn't know the chord shape for E Min..

Ha ha, I don't know the absolute integrity of that story or not, but it seems like a good tale, regardless.