Need help learning fretboard

[JTMartin]

Been playing guitar for years, consider myself to be an "ok" rhythm player. Good at chords, runs, etc.. Been playing mando for a year or so. Have memorized 25 or 30 fiddle tunes from tab and thought I was doing good until I went to a festival a few months ago and sat in on some jams. Realized I was just in the way when I couldn't improvise and didn't even know chords to chop. Very humiliating indeed! Even though I have a good ear, I still need to learn the fretboard. I'm 45 and not as sharp as I use to be when it comes to learning knew stuff. Would like some advice from anyone thats been in the same situation. I've tried a couple of DVD's and a book but I just couldn't get it. Anyone have an instuctional DVD or book that worked for them? Thanks !

[Jim Garber]

If you can, get yourself a teacher.

I assume you are learning all this by ear and concentrating on bluegrass? One exercise is to take some of the tunes you know and play them in other octaves and other keys. Try them in closed positions up and down the neck.

Also, try getting together with fellow musicians hwo you feel comfortable with and play and have fun and relax. It will come.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Jeff,you've run into a problem thayt i've found with many TAB (not all) players,a 'relative' inability to improvise. I'm self taught on Banjo,Gutar & now Mandolin & i've taught myself to play by ear,with the rare glimpse at TAB to fix anything that i hadn't got right. Learning by ear has one advantage,you have to 'search' for the right notes & you get to 'know where they are' & the sound of them. This is the way that Mike Compton for one,learned,what he calls 'hunt & peck'. I've been playing Banjo for 46 years this year, & obviously,being used to 'note progressions',(rather than 'set scales') has helped a lot. I still had to do it all again on Mandolin,but i can now listen to a tune,pick up the bones of it & play along,sometimes better than i thought maybe i could.
Don't give up on the TAB completely,but give your mind a chance to work things out for itself.It may take longer,but it also has long term benefits. Another thing to do,is to play along with CD's,any Bluegrass on the radio (www.bluegrassradio.org) etc. - whatever comes along,try it !. Don't be phased by it,if you get 20% of it right,you'll get another 20% as you get more familiar with the tune - good luck & DON'T GIVE UP !!,
Saska ~:>

[Fretbear]

Until I was able to grasp the relationship between chord forms and scale patterns, the fretboard remained a mystery to me. Just as an example, finger a low C chop chord (leave the high E string out) Then play a full high C chop chord up at the eighth fret. These two chord forms are linked by a network of scales and full and partial chord forms. There is a major scale that is almost identical to the chop chord form, and another important scale form which is commonly called "closed position". These need to be explored and grasped if you want to understand the fretboard. Niles Hokkanen wrote an excellent book entitled "Bluegrass Up the Neck" where he explains and demonstrates these concepts in depth and how they relate to common bluegrass numbers. I have started to believe through my experience that someone just learning to play (not jam) may be better served to restrict themselves to perhaps just the key of C (no sharps or flats) or the key of G (one sharp) and try to gain some mastery there, before worrying about all the other keys, which often serve only to confuse and discourage them in the beginning. On the mandolin, what is true of one key is true of another, only the positions and the chord and note names change, but all the relationships remain constant, so transposing to other keys is not that difficult once certain fundamentals are grasped.

[JTMartin]

Thanks for the replies. Very encouraging. I just realized I misspelled "learning" on my post title and now its in every post reply. How embarrising! Bet some of you were wondering why I would want to LEAN a fretboard. Can't figure out how to edit it. Sorrry

[Rob Powell]

For jams, it's best if you can chord first so learn the chords and standard bluegrass progressions. You'll have a lot more fun and won't feel "useless."

Then, when you're in the jams, watch and listen. No amount of tabs or dvd's can replace what you can learn from that.

I agree with Saska, play along with anything and everything. You will soon learn what works in certain styles and what doesn't and no one hears your mistakes but you;)

[Don Stiernberg]

one thing that helps when learning the mandolin fretboard is recognizing it's symmetry. You don't need to learn scale patterns over and over again to play in all keys, but rather get a closed position( I like to start in the key of "A"..)then move it around to other keys, noticing that you're maintaining the same visual shape no matter where you take things on the board. An even clearer example of this is to use a tune rather than a scale. For instance, play "Devil's Dream" in Bb, no open strings. Then try it in C natural. See what I mean?
Another similar concept is sometimes referred to as "extended scales". Take a closed major scale on the middle two strings, play one octave. Let's say the F scale, from the third fret on the D string to the eighth fret on the A. OK. Now, continue by adding the same pitches above(E string) and below(G string). What you end up with is a position filled with notes that are "all good" when improvising in the key of F. And guess what? It's good for all the other keys,too--just slide it up to Ab and try it out!
Ted Eschliman's new book has delved into this approach in detail. It's called Getting Into Jazz Mandolin, and his studies explore the "FFcP" approach--four fingers, closed position. Even when you play with open strings, "seeing " this architecture is very helpful.
Chords can be seen in this same manner. There just aren't that many positions or types of chords. In fact in music there are only five types of chords--major, minor, augmented, diminished, and dominant(7th chords). Some call the 7th chords major because they have a major third. Most improvisers consider them a different family because of their role in the music. Anyway grab one or two voicings for each and move them to various keys, flashcard style. Soon enough the lightbulb comes on and you're recognizing things more rapidly on the board, then getting to spots by name or(better yet) by sound even more quickly.
This layout or symmetry is only one reason why the mandolin is the greatest of all instruments, but perhaps the most important reason.

[Bob Andress]

I've started learning the FFCP and it's helping me learn the fretboard (as well as teaching me to use my pinky)
I'm a visual person, that's how I learn. I have a chord book that has the fretboard laid out with names of each note in each fret. I took a piece of paper, lined it up with the picture and cut out the patern for the scale using each of the four fingers. I can then move the paper around on the picture to match up with the key I want to learn. After practice, I can see in my mind the relationship between notes, keys and patterns. Yes, it's dorky, but that's how I learn. The wife has a good laugh at my bright ideas. If this sounds interesting to you but you don't get the "picture", let me know and I'll try to post a pic. If not, then this dork will keep his bright ideas to himself. :grin:

[Andrew DeMarco]

I've been working on FFcP (http://www.jazzmando.com/ffcp.shtml) and finding it very useful as well. It's at least a starting point!

[kirkwhitehead]

So I just downloaded the FFcP lesson from jazzmando.com
I am also working through the first page showing the positions and fingerings. So, I am kinda thick headed sometimes, but the FFcP is/are scales? Please forgive such a question but I have never had anykind of theory and I really want to improve my playing. I have 2 books but I keep getting kinda lost with them and find my self just learning the tunes in the back of them. I want to be better but have not found the teaching method that works for me.

kirk

[Barbara Shultz]

I've only practiced the downloaded FFcP from Jazz Mando, but as far as THAT is concerned... Yes, it's scales.

Barbara

[Gerard Dick]

On the topic of the FFCP exercises, yes they are scales. When I studied piano 1/3 of the time was devoted to scales. Scales are boring all right but SCALES ARE HUGE. It's how you learn in your fingers where the notes are.

[kirkwhitehead]

Barbara, thanks.

I love to noodle but never knew where to do it really.

I would bump into a couple notes that sound good but I could not tell ya what key they are in.

thanks so much,

kirk

[kirkwhitehead]

Gerard, I can hear music in my head but I have no idea how to put together a melody. I am fine with lyrics and chords progressions but finding the melody has always been my weakness. Even on guitar which I have been playing for 9 years.

thanks again

kirk

[Gerard Dick]

Kirk,
I hear you. I've had guitars for 30+ years and still am not much past chords. The scale pattern on a mandolin is logical and repetitive. Once learned, it allows you to narrow the search for those notes in your head. If you know a scale, forwards backwards and sideways you can adjust the song in your head to that scale and your fingers should be able to find the notes.
:mandosmiley:

[kirkwhitehead]

Thats what I am hoping for. So far I am feeling pretty good about the FFcP. Also I have found a bunch of double stops!!!!! Very cool system.

kirk