Live set up for Mando and Guitar?

[Rob Gerety]

I play acoustic guitar and acoustic mando. I use pickups on both. I would like to run both through my Baggs para acoustic preamp/di and into a mixer then to the PA. I want to work this out so I can quickly go from one instrument to the other between tunes with no chance of popping when plugging in and out.

What is a good way to do this? I am new to all this so I need to understand the entire signal chain you are recommending. Interested in whether a foot switch might help in there somewhere and also whether I need two Baggs para acoustic units or can go with one. I do shape the tone a bit with the Baggs - if I use one will I have to futz around adusting the eq when I change from guitar to mando? I see folks doing this all the time at contra dances - just not sure how to make this all work and I don't want to waste a lot of money experimenting. Basically I am adding the mando to my playing and I'm not sure how to get all wired up and sounding good with the two instruments instead of one.

[mandroid]

If you don't have a mute button handy.

'Silent Knight' instrument cables comes to mind , they made those to do quiet hot swaps.

the end that would buzz, shorts the connectors together , until fully inserted again into the instrument .

that still leaves you with the EQ to fuss with after the swap,
but just buying a new instrument cable wont cost much.

if the Channels 3 band non parametric EQ is adequate, ... try a small sub mixer near you,
and plug an instrument each in a channel, then you have a level
to raise on one and lower on the other leaving them both plugged in.

may not have that Baggs in the chain at all , or use it/them in an effects loop .

Just a thought.

OTOH, I have a Mute button on my AC-60 amp, so I use that, to swap instruments .

If I were to need a PA hookup there is a pre-amp out on those ..

[lenf12]

When you switch from guitar to mando, do you have to "futz" with shaping the tone now? If so, it may just be a simple adjustment that would not justify buying another Baggs Para/DI. I would simply buy and A/B box and plug the guitar into input A and the mando into input B. Then plug the A/B box into the Baggs Para/DI then into your amp or PA. When you switch instruments, select either A or B on the box to turn on/off the appropriate instrument, "futz" with the tone and play. It may help to experiment with tone "futzing" prior to the gig so you know how much adjustment you'll need to make when you switch instruments.

Len B.
Clearwater, FL

[jeff_75]

Rob -

I don't want to discourage you, but I've had the same problem for a long time, and I've tried all sorts of solutions. I'm looking forward to the suggestions you might get - maybe I'll get a new idea.

So far, I've found nothing that works to my satisfaction. My only solution has been to buy a second PADI box, and just use up two channels on the PA. (Well, three, really - vocals, guitar, and mandolin). Works for now, but only because I play in a trio, usually with an 8-channel head, and we almost never need a spare input for a guest. But if the band gets any bigger, I'm doomed.

[Tim Bowen]

As for routing (and muting) your signal, there's a multitude of options. In addition to the Silent Knight cable, I have a cable that has an actual volume slider on the jack (I've had it for years, and off the top of my head, I forget the manufacturer at the moment). If you're by any chance also looking at using an 'in-line' tuner, the majority of quality (and even lesser quality) stompbox tuners feature a mute button; if you do go with some type of mute, worth noting is that some are absolutely silent, while others have an audible 'pop' as engaged; it depends upon the bypass circuitry of the unit. I'm not recommending this outright, but if you want to have separate cables for each instrument, you could employ an A/B box. I'm a "the fewer cables, the better" sort of guy, and I don't want any more cables snaking around me than absolutely necessary. Additionally, all A/B boxes are not created equally; typically, Ive found that garden variety, inexpensive A/B boxes can be prone to ground loop issues and/or they can rob your signal of high end. I'm not an A/B box sort of guy, but if I were to use one, I'd go with a high quality unit such as Lehle or Radial that features isolated transformers.

The following unit looks quite interesting to me, but as versatile as it looks to be, it still probaly wouldn't be a total fix in and of itself for the variety of instruments, tones and material that I employ at my jobs:

http://www.tonebone.com/tb-pzpre.htm

My duo partner and I both play a variety of instruments live, but our roles are very different. He uses the Baggs unit (great!) as well as an MXR Micro Amp boost pedal to match output levels between different instruments. The MXR doesn't have EQ shaping, it's a simple one knob booster circuit that is 'mostly' tonally neutral.

Currently, what I'm bringing to live shows: a standard Larrivee acoutic guitar with an LR Baggs side panel, a Larrivee "Nashville high-strung" guitar with a Fishman Prefix piezo and no side panel, a Michael Kelly Legacy mandolin with Fishman system and side panel, a Gold Tone electric banjo with onboard tone and volume controls, a Jerry Jones electric sitar with tone and volume for each pickup, a Supro six string lap steel for open D tuning with tone and volume controls and a Dimarzio humbucker, and a Gold Tone eight string lap steel for C6 tuning with tone and volume controls and a "soapbar" pickup. I just scored an amazing Fender (yes, Fender) acoustic twelve string for stupid bucks, which I'm trying to ready for weekend jobs. For starters, I'm going with a simple and inexpensive George L's pop-in pickup, but that's subject to change. If I can get it together in time, this instrument will replace the aforementioned Larrivee high-strung guitar.

That's a lot of different instruments, with lots of different output levels and inherent sonic quirks. I didn't get a handle on dealing with the EQ and output for all of these beasts over a couple of months; it was (and is) an ongoing process, and with this many instruments, there's going to be some compromises here and there by default, unless you have a vastly complex rig and/or a personal tech. I have neither, I'm a staff of one.

With the exception of the Larrivee high-strung guitar and the recently acquired Fender twelve string, all of my instruments have either volume and treble roll off pots, or side panels with volume and EQ sliders. Yes, I do miss them when they're not there; as an electric guitarist since the late 60's, the best fit for me is always going to be total control at my fingertips. As big a fan as I am of achieving dynamic control with "the hands", there are plenty of times (at least in my world) where only manual volume and tone manipulations will do. For the parts I play on high-strung or twelve string guitar, I can get by without them, but it'd be way better if they were there. The EQ and volume settings that I use with playing slide on a standard acoustic-electric guitar are vastly different than I'd use for playing pristine arpeggiated passages or strummy rhythms, so I need the fix at my fingertips.

Beyond what's availiable at the instrument or with the hands, I do call on some circuitry at my feet. As mentioned, I think the Baggs preamp is great. However, with my instrumentation, there's way too many options and nuances there for me to get what I need quickly, on-the-fly, at shows, and I'm always concerned as to set pacing with limited down time between numbers. My personal fix has been to employ two good booster circuits; one is the MXR Micro Amp that my partner also uses, which I call upon occasionally. My Swiss Army Knife booster is an Xotic RC boost. This thing has dramatically improved the quality of my working life. It has master, pre-gain, bass and treble - four knobs. Mid controls and notch filters and such... I really don't require them. For instance, when I play electric banjo, I know I need to boost the master and possibly the pre-gain, and I need to boost the heck out of the high end. My Larrivee high-strung guitar with the Fishman Prefix has mammoth output; it's one of the loudest acoustic-electric instruments I've ever played... in fact, it's about as loud as my Supro lap steel with the Dimarzio humbucker. Anyway, with the RC Boost I can actually utilize the pre and master controls to take this instrument below unity gain, which is not something that can be easily accomplished without both of these knobs on board. I also know that I need to roll the high end back short of being icepick to the skull with a high-strung guitar, which is easily accomplished with the RC's treble roll off pot. Among other things, and at the risk of being branded a heretic here, I also utilize low gain overdrive and compression at my acoustic-electric jobs, but not for mandolin, banjo, and high-strung guitars.

[Tim2723]

I believe in the KISS principle. The simpler, the better. I've tried lots of set ups over the years, A/B boxes, muting tuners, pre-amp boosters, sub-mixers, silent cords, pretty much all the tricks.

The first thing I will NEVER recommend is a single cord (silent or otherwise) to change instruments between tunes. The jack on your instrument is one of the weakest links in the chain. They have finite lives and can only handle so many cycles of plug/unplug before they fail. You can count on the jack failing at the worst moment.

Adding a sub-mixer to supply more channels to an inadequately sized board is pretty common, but I think it's something that you hear about often but seldom get to see actually work as well as it's claimed. Putting gains into gains into gains can cause a lot of problems.

The best solution I've ever found is to have a dedicated channel for each instrument. If you need a second DI for the new instrument, fine, but nothing works better for me than just having enough inputs on the mixer.

[Chunky But Funky]

What you describe is this:

http://www.d-tar.com/solstice.shtml

I saw from another thread today
( http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?p=616214 )

that Rick Turner posts here. This pre and company is a collaboration of Seymour Duncan and Mr. Turner. I have one and love it with my Bourgeois guitars (with Baggs M1 p/u & mic blended) and Collings Mandos (with AT Pro 37 or EV dynamic mics). It blends up to four signals to a single out with effects loops per channel and a master effects loop. You can also tap the signal outs individually. It is a great problem solver, especially if you combine mics and pickups from several sources. There is EQ control per pair of channels and you can mount it on a mic stand, which is handy / dandy. You can also use a Boss FS5L to mute the whole rig. NFI, BTW!

Doug

[Perry]

Loads of money but very versatile.....stereo pre-amp with PARAMETRIC EQ

http://www.pendulumaudio.com/SPS-1.html

[steve V. johnson]

I use the D-Tar Solstice for a bouzouki and a guitar onstage. Two channels, two EQs, two gain/volume controls, mute, tuner out, XLR and 1/4" out to PA.

It has what I need (and not much that I don't, too... it really bugs me when I have to get a box that does a lot of stuff I don't need just to get what I do need...) and makes switching instruments really easy, no drama.

I haven't critically compared the Solstice to other preamps, so I can't praise it relative to other products that may be available.

I got it because it had the same feature set and configuration as the previous preamp I used, a Raven Labs PMB-II. Raven Labs has gone out of business, and while the PMB-II still works wonderfully, I don't want to rely on unsupported hardware w/o a backup. However, so far, the Solstice is brilliant, simple, efficient and sounds true to my instruments and pickups.

I haven't used it with mandolin because I don't play mando on stage that much (yet), but I have no reservations about using this setup with mandolin, nor any other instruments with pickups or internal mics.

My $.02.

stv

[clem]

What you describe is this:

http://www.d-tar.com/solstice.shtml

I saw from another thread today
( http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?p=616214 )

that Rick Turner posts here. This pre and company is a collaboration of Seymour Duncan and Mr. Turner. I have one and love it with my Bourgeois guitars (with Baggs M1 p/u & mic blended) and Collings Mandos (with AT Pro 37 or EV dynamic mics). It blends up to four signals to a single out with effects loops per channel and a master effects loop. You can also tap the signal outs individually. It is a great problem solver, especially if you combine mics and pickups from several sources. There is EQ control per pair of channels and you can mount it on a mic stand, which is handy / dandy. You can also use a Boss FS5L to mute the whole rig. NFI, BTW!

Doug

THIS IS IT!! I've used a D-Tar Solstice on stage for years and it is the best, most versatile preamp blender avaialble (and a great deal for the price!). I can plug my guitar and mandolin at the same time...even if I'm using a dual source guitar (the D-Tar automatically splits the stereo signal into 2 channels) and a microphone on my mandolin (2 XLR inputs + 2 1/4" inputs). Mute button on front means silent tuning and instrument switching with no foot switch necessary. You can also get a cool mic-stand "shelf" so you can tweak EQ or volume on the fly.

Can't say enough good things about the Solstice. I've had many systems over the years (including way more expensive Pendulum rack system). The SOLSTICE is it for sound, flexibility, size, ease of use, road worthiness. Just don't lose the power supply (the only time I had a "problem"...DOH!:))).

Good luck.

[Perry]

The Solstice looks nice....how are the EQ's for the mando's range?

Does cutting the mid swipe too much?

I've found that many units designed for guitar don't have enough EQ flexibility
for mando. The Baggs Para DI comes to mind as a great guitar unit but not so great for the mando. That said if you have to EQ a whole lot then maybe the pick-up is at fault.


That Radial Tonebone looks promising but the parametric EQ is shared by both channels so
that almost makes it useless for dual instrument set-ups.

[Chunky But Funky]

The Solstice Mid control is centered at 796 Hz with a "Q" of .56. The Baggs PADI appears to be sweepable from 400 Hz to 1.6 kHz. I did not see the "Q" mentioned in the PADI's online manual. You would always have the option of patching a spare parametric or graphic eq in the mando channels insert for fine tuned tweaking. I don't eq much on my mando channel, as I like the sound of the mics, and I don't have a pickup on any of my mandos.

If you're spending money anyway, D-Tar makes a parametric eq as well, for just such an occasion! I think they can sit side by side in a 19" rack. Specs are as follows for the Equinox midrange — frequency adjustable from 212 Hz to 2.35 KHz & each band has adjustable Q (bandwidth) from .58 to 9.4 with 15 dB of boost and cut available (from the D-Tar website)




http://www.d-tar.com/equinox.shtml

[mandoannie]

"I've found that many units designed for guitar don't have enough EQ flexibility
for mando. The Baggs Para DI comes to mind as a great guitar unit but not so great for the mando. That said if you have to EQ a whole lot then maybe the pick-up is at fault."

I use a Baggs Para DI with my Breedlove FF that has Baggs Radius pickup and found that it reproduces a very true sound without problems.

I use a 'Planet Waves' (by D'Addario) instrument cable that has a mute switch at one end so that I can shut off to pull from the instrument without the 'pop'. I don't try to switch to a guitar, but occasionally switch from Mandobird electric to FF and that requires a bit of adjustment of the DI control. I leave the DI box near me, so making the changes is not a big problem.

I think once you have the settings dialed in for each instrument and remember what they are, it won't taking much futzing. If you are looking for a relatively inexpensive solution, the Planet waves cable cost about $35 CDN, probably less US$ and has a lifetime warranty. Someone recently stomped on mine and it was a simple matter to return the cable to the dealer and was exchanged immediately for a new one. Just had to keep the original packaging with the bar code and the original store receipt.

..my 2 cents FWIW

ann

[Rob Gerety]

Man, these are some great suggestions. I like the looks of the Solstice unit. Could be a good solution. Perhaps a couple of instrument cables with mute switch. One Solstice costs about the same as two Baggs Para DI boxes. Great suggestions folks! Thank you.

Tell me though - does the Solstice have similar eq capability compared to the Baggs Para DI which I find does a pretty good - not perfect - job.

I'm also thinking about the effects loop. I am about to start using a tiny bit of reverb certainly with guitar and who knows what else - the goal being the most natural tone possible. With the Solstice unit can a single effects loop be used with both channels? I assume so - just not sure.

[Chunky But Funky]

Hey Rob,
I tracked down the Eq specs in my post above. You can always patch an EQ in either to channel one or channel two at the insert points. The solstice does have a master EFX loop as well. It is only available at the master out. If you tap each channel individually, the signal is tapped prior to the master EFX loop. See pic below for connectivity.

Doug

[Chunky But Funky]

Hey all,
Not that it really helps with mando specific eq and applications, I just wanted to tell you what I did with the Solstice for the first time tonight just for kicks. My son and I run an open mic every Wednesday night. We are having a lovely combination of 1-3 inches of snow and single digit temps here. I didn't really want to drag out my new Mackie Onyx board (no case yet) or honkin' heavy Carvin power amp.

So I ran the whole open mic with the Solstice and Alesis 100W power amp. I set the top eq for guitar (rolled off mids and slightly boosted highs) and used a DI for the 2nd balanced instrument input. I set the bottom eq with a little low end roll-off for vocals and used an Art tube MP as a mic pre for the 1/4 channel. We ran two vocals (EV ND767 and ND967) and two guitars all night long with a TC reverb on the master EFX. No one seemed to miss the Mackie board at all. It might have even sounded a little better, honestly! Routing flexibility is another story, but...it's definitely not a one trick pony. If that helps anyones decision making at all.

Doug

[Rob Gerety]

We are having a lovely combination of 1-3 inches of snow and single digit temps here. I didn't really want to drag out my new Mackie Onyx board (no case yet) or honkin' heavy Carvin power amp.

Doug

Oh yes, isn't it wonderful. This morning we are blessed with appox. 12-15 inches of snow on the ground and 15 below 0 F.

That Solstice is looking more and more like the best compromise for someone running two or more instruments. Tell me, did the eq on the solstice take care of the guitar pretty well? Get rid of that awful nasal tone?

[Chunky But Funky]

Rob,
For guitar, you don't have to take my word for it. Listen to it with many guitars and pick-up combinations here:

http://www.fingerpick.com/pickups.htm

This is where I originally discovered it a few years ago. Listening with the EV mics (toward the bottom of the pick-up test) is the primary reason why I ended up getting the EV ND767 and ND967. Doug Young, who did the comparison tests using the Solstice, tends to roll off more mids with it than I do. Hope that helps!

Doug (not Young!)

[mandroid]

From Roland/Boss there is a 10 band EQ twin pedal that stores presets for several settings,
in it's memory.
Site says 9 different ones can be stored, so one certainly could have 2 different EQ settings to A/B between.

the BOSS EQ 20

http://www.bossus.com/gear/productdetails.php?ProductId=161&ParentId=96

[Chunky But Funky]

For that matter, you could even use the Boss eq to set 2 more presets and use it for a rhythm / solo boost on the master EFX send/return for each instrument...hmmm

Doug

[Rob Gerety]

I've been referring to that fingerpick web site pick up report for a while now. Helped me a lot. The Boss EQ pedal is interesting. I think its only about $100 street. I wonder if it is any good?

[Jim Nollman]

Doesn't every new acoustic amp come with a mute button? Push the button, pull out your cable, add another cable, push the mute button again. Its done, silently. Or how about tuning up? Rather than lose the attention of an audience that you've just worked so hard to get in your pocket, instead, push the same mute button, tune up, and then push it again. A Roland AC-60 costs about a third as much of what performers get, even on my little island, to play one wedding. i personally prefer the Fishman Loudbox Performer which costs a little more, weighs 23 pounds, and has a tunable tweeter which is a very sweet addition for reproducing mandolin sound.

I rarely need more than two preset settings. To make the switch, I use two little slivers of masking tape next to each pot that needs twiddling. One piece is red, the other is white. If I needed more switching than that, I'd first try blue masking tape. If it got too confusing, I'd certainly take a look at some of units displayed in this thread.

Here's another solution, probably about the same cost as some of the fancy boxes i've seen displayed here. Add a Schertler dyn mandolin pickup to your acoustic instrument. The instructions make it very clear that you will likely attain the most accurate sound reproduction for an acoustic mandolin by keeping your amp's EQ flat. No cut, no boost. It worked great for me. And I was very surprised to realize it.

If you absolutely do require major control over your EQ, I would recommend the LR Baggs paraDI. As a light weight performer's tool, it gives you options for huge color boost and/or cut at every string frequency you could ever wish to dial in. Since this recommendation stands at odds with another poster who criticizes the Baggs, I would ask that person if, conceivably, he may have confused input gain with output volume? For the unit's EQ to work optimally, you need to be sparing with input gain, and use the output volume for volume. Or better yet, use both of them sparingly, and leave the volume for the amp.

[Rob Gerety]

Good thoughts about the mute on Amps. But I dont' use an amp. Frankly I dont' know anyone around here who does use an amp now that the Powered PA speakers have gotten so good. I have a Baggs Para DI and like it for guitar - I have not tried it for mando.

[Jim Nollman]

Rob, you may not use an amp, but I bet you use a monitor, at least some of the time? I ask this, because I bought the Fishman to use, at least half the time, as my own personal monitor. It's about the same size as a stage monitor, but it has all these extra doodads on it to optimize the sound, both for me, and to output direct to the board. And it has the all important mute button.

[Perry]

Someone above posted a link to this unit:

http://www.tonebone.com/tb-pzpre.htm

I downloaded the owner's manual and read it. Great for the player with two instruments on stage.
I bought one and used it yesterday at a gig and really liked it. Street price about $299.

I used my Mix A5 with the internal Schertler. There's a piezo buffer on both channels which I engaged on the channel I was using. Big signal going into the board. Nice. It's a very warm fat musical sounding unit.

The downside is that the EQ is shared by both channels but interestingly
both I and the guitar player in the band (who also bought one) didn't even tweak our EQ's.

Loads of thoughtful features. A mute button handy for silent tuning; switching instruments, breaks. Boost button with a variable control to set the amount of boost. Most all it just sounds good right out of the gate.
Built like a brick you know what and fits in a gig bag.

Features all explained well in this PDF:

http://www.tonebone.com/manual-pzpre.pdf

[Dfyngravity]

beluga, I use a Schertler for this very reason, good idea.

Though Schertler DYN-M is for the mandolin and they have one for guitar, they are basically the same. I simply run it into a volume pedal, so when I switch from mandolin to guitar, I use the volume pedal to turn the volume off, pull the pickup off of the top of the mandolin and stick it on to the top of the guitar. For me this has worked great. Though I wasn't trying to make a lightening quick switch between the instrument. I only do this between songs and only a few times (one of two) a set.

[Rob Gerety]

My only problem with this approach is that I want to be able to switch between instruments quickly, right in the middle of a dance tune. I'm going to see if I can get away using a cable that has a mute switch on the connector (Planet Waves) and one Baggs DI. I suspect in the end I'll be picking up one of those boxes that provides the ability to eq two channels separately. We'll see.

[mandroid]

Planet Waves instrument cables would work for Piezos, being TR, just signal and ground .

for Schertler's or AKG C411 and microphones with XLR plugs there is a Neutrik connector
with a ring switch on it .

[wannabethile]

Hey, Dfyngravity,

What is the name of the volume pedal that you use?

[mandognome]

I just take up two channels, with two DIs and Tuner/Mutes (Boss TU-2 I believe). When I need to switch quickly from one to another, I mute it, don't unplug it, put it in a stand, and pick up the other, unmute it and go. I leave the instruments plugged in onstage, even when not playing them.

Takes lots extra channels, and a bit more time at soundcheck, but less to go wrong during the set and no messing with eqs or frowning at the soundboard when you could be enjoying music!

[Rob Gerety]

Yea, if there is room on the mixer board something like this sounds like a very simple and good approach. I might even cut out the two tuner/mute switches (which I honestly never use for tuning anyway) and go with a Planet Waves switchable instrument cable on each instrument. I tried one last night (just on my guitar) and it worked well - a little stiff but the switch on the cable is very quite and the cable itself is good quality.

[Jon Hall]

I use a Boss FV-300H guitar/bass volume pedal. I purchased it about 12 years ago for about a $100. It has a tuner jack which allows me to turn the volume off and tune on stage without anyone having to listen. I just set the volume control to 0 so that when the pedal is all the way down I have full volume and all the way up it is muted enabling me to change instruments or tune without pop.

It works flawlessly unless I forget to to press the pedal before a song

[pops1]

How about an AB switch before the Baggs and make sure the ab switch has a make before break switch. you won't have a pop, it costs very little, step on the switch and change instruments both are plugged in so no wear on the jack.