Best cardioid mic for one-mic setup

[Emonortem]

Hey guys...

I'm looking for a good cardioid-pattern mic for an "around-one-mic" bluegrass band. Have any good suggestions, especially regarding feed-back resistance?

Are there any condensers that can withstand the feedback?

[Andy Miller]

I've used an Audio-Technica AT-3035 for that purpose. Works pretty good and you can get one for $140 from Full Compass right now, a lot of mic for so little money. Feedback is usually not problematic for me as long as I'm able to keep the mic behind my speakers. There are a lot of variables out there in terms of speakers, boards, preamps, rooms, stage monitors (ugh) etc. so just be aware that this "one condenser mic" setup may not work for you everywhere. I take my condensers with me to every gig, even gigs with house sound. However, some situations just present too many issues and cause me to get out my dynamic mics and DI boxes instead. For example, a cramped stage/sound system where you just can't physically move the condenser mic(s) out of the feedback zone. Or a gig with so much ambient sound (wind, loud-talking bar audience in proximity, walk-in cooler compressor nearby!) that the condenser mics seem to get as much of the noise as they do the music. . .

BTW I also have a CAD GXL3000 multipattern large diaphragm condenser and I do not recommend it - low output and very harsh, sibilant kind of sound. It was cheap but not a good value.

Good luck - works real nice when it works real nice!

[steve V. johnson]

There has been a lot of discussion of the One Mic Method here, and of ideal mics for it.

I'll open the bidding by saying that, IMO, no matter what the mic, the feedback and satisfaction
that any band will get from the One Mic Method has more to do with careful rehearsal and listening than with the hardware.

That said, yes, condensors can do it, but it seems that optimal results move along a sliding scale... on one end are good, loud monitors and really, really careful and well-rehearsed use of the One Mic, and perhaps -not- using a condensor mic, and on the other end is listening to one another acoustically and really, really careful and well-rehearsed use of the One Mic, whether it's a condensor mic or... any other.

It's my perception that many of the folks who have the most fun and experience the most relaxation with the One Mic Method modify it by using a separate mic (or a pickup) on the double bass and then moving the vocalists and the other instruments onto and off of the One Mic as appropriate.

If I were allowed to start this with a band, I'd have lots of rehearsals without monitors and record the output of the One Mic and have everyone study what happens and how they can move around the mic and develop their Method from that. It seems that if folks learn to listen to one another without stage monitors, then when the monitors are needed (loud club or big concert stage) they can be added in minimally and they can augment the sense of the band on the stage.

To start... why not try the AudioTechnica 2020 for less than $100? It's a good and representative cardioid condensor and then you're not gambling the groceries on whether or not you really like the One Condensor Mic Method. If you do like it and decide to grow with it, you can easily find a new home for the 2020 and move on to more sophisticated mics. ... -After- you know more of what to expect from the band, the One Mic Method, and condensor mics.

Or... there are -lots- of good condensor mics out there. Just pick a price. ;-)

I hope this helps.

stv

[Emonortem]

Wow guys, that really helped a whole lot. I appreciate the input on the technical and practical sides.

I've been borrowing a friend of mines AT condenser (not sure which maybe 4040) and found it to work fairly well. I had considered using it with an additional dynamic or two for guitar and mando solos, but I really like the "natural" idea of listening to each other, even recording to analyze it... seems like that would be a great starting point, at least; and final point at best.

Thanks again, and if you have any other thoughts come to mind, I'd love to hear them!

[earthsave]

AT/4033 with a Tube amp. We used to mic the bass and still do occasionally, but most of the time do not. Definitely try to practice working it. I get frustrated at our gigs many times because we never practice with the mic to work out a balance of where we will stand. It helps to be aware of the rest of the group in relation to yourself.

[charlesgwilsonjr]

In my six piece BG band we use the AT-4040. The quality of the sound is amazing. That said, weaving six folks into and away from the mic is not easy. Two condensor mic's seem like the best solution (but I've not tried that yet). We have used a combination of one condensor mic and two instrument mic's and that has worked pretty well. Chuck

[Elliot Luber]

If you're set on one mic, have you considered a boundary mic like a PZM?

[TonyP]

There are quite a few great choices for the single/modified mic system. At 4033,4040,4050,3035, possibly the 2020(I've not seen anybody use that one yet). The Shure's 27, 35,44. And others like the AKG 414. I don't think a PZM would work as it's omni and for those wanting to avoid feedback, omni's won't work.

I don't mean to confuse, but mic choice is just the tip of the iceberg that's live sound. When you see a band like Del McCoury and the Boys do their thing, it looks easy. But, there's a bunch of stuff you can't see, like their in ear wireless monitors, soundmen, and years of practice with this setup. And all it takes is one person who either is not really committed to this, or plain 'ol can't get the hang of the shear amount of choreography involved, and you've got a trainwreck.

Add to this the physics of how the mic's work and react in different places, noise levels, surroundings and the complication rises exponentially. For me it's getting all the parameters and taking a good hard look. This especially includes the human factor.

The fact we have a lead singer who's the bass player has become the major factor that I've given up on the single mic. Add to this a guitar player who can't hear himself, and nobody wants to give up their mic. Also it may seem simpler to have one mic, but it's not IMHO. In order to get coverage of a whole band, you have to have it hot enough. And the louder you get, the more squirrely it gets with feedback. Of course this all depends on where you play too. If you are outside, with a big stage, and a quiet audience, no problem at all. If like us you have small coffee houses with little or no stage, in a corner, with windows to our back, major problem.

I don't want to talk you out of what you are shooting for, I'm just bringing up that without the rest of the band going for this, you could end up like me. I've always shot for the LDC main vocal mic, with side instrument mics, ala Hot Rise. But as time has gone on and gigs have gotten louder and louder with all the challenges that brings, I've kept the LDC for the lead singer(turned down of course), and have added vocal mics(all condensers) and have added special equipment like the DriveRack to get a handle on feedback. For me there is no truly simple way to do sound and either you learn the choreography and buy wireless in ear monitors(because we can't do without, and hope you will always have big stages to work on), or you buy more mic's/stands with wired in ear monitors for indoor gigs, and small side fill monitors for outdoors. just my deflated 2c worth.

[earthsave]

Other things about a single mic is you will probably not be able get the volume you can get out of a multiple mic setup. As mentioned above that can depend on the venue and the sound techs familiarity with single mic setups.

It certainly tears down quick tho.

[Elliot Luber]

I now take it you want this mic for live playing rather than recording. In that case a boundary mic won't be your best choice. The details of how you plan to use it may steer your toward or away from certain options.

[Jim Nollman]

It makes me wonder if anyone has tried using a stereo mic, like the AT 825. I've used them for recording interviews for which they work really good. But never in a live venue for which the Shure 57 and 58 seem omnipresent. A stereo mic is basically two cardioid-patterned mics that project 90 degrees to each other (they are not opposite to each other, as in 180 degrees).

[steve V. johnson]

Beluga Jim,

I have both the AT 825 and the AT 822, which terminates in a 1/8" stereo mini-jack (I got it to use with a mini-disc recorder, and I sometimes still use it with the Edirol R-09 or Zoom H2).

I've used the AT825 for drum over heads and a stereo overheard for several small acoustic ensembles. It has a long, smooth (but pronounced) presence peak that can be really bright sometimes (like with cymbals) which makes it nice for the acoustic ensemble overhead use.

I think that if one didn't care about the look of the presentation, an AT 825 would work really nicely for a one-mic bluegrass setup, set at about shoulder height and with the mixer channels either panned center or barely left/right. The single-point stereo mic sums quite nicely to mono.

I never really use a PA in stereo mode unless I absolutely can't avoid it, so that we don't isolate any instrument away from half the audience by panning it to one side or another. Audience folks can get pretty unhappy about missing out on one instrument because it's way over across the room.

A tangential excursion into PZM's...
They aren't -exactly- omni, but 'hear' in a hemispherical pattern from the plate that's attached to the capsule. I've used them on stages, with the mic taped to a piece of clear plexiglass to enlarge the hemispherical pickup area and to isolate the capsule of the PZM from other instruments or monitors. PZMs, even the cheap ones, are pretty darn accurate and uncolored and don't exhibit proximity effects (like omni's). For room mics or overheads they can be wonderful, but they take some getting-used-to to use.

When Crown was first developing the PZMs they brought a bunch of them to a studio I was managing for us to test. We mounted them on walls and ceilings, and made a wedge of two 2-ft-square plexiglass boards attached at one edge so that we could change the relative angle of the two boards, and we mounted the whole thing on one big mic stand for a big stereo overheard/room mic. It was sweet. I still have a rig like that that I use with a pair of PZMs.

One time, at a Crown guy's suggestion, drummer Neil Peart of Rush taped one PZM to his chest to mic his drum kit in a concert. I've seen pix of it, it was a huge outdoor show somewhere. I'm told it worked great, but... I wasn't there.... lol!!!! And I never heard any recording from that.

A single PZM mounted on an 8" or maybe 12" square panel of some sort could be really good-sounding for a One Mic Method. It would certainly not have the retro/vintage/trad look, tho, but with a small one it would let folks see the band well. It should be easy to move the mic &/or monitors away from the hemispherical PZM pickup pattern, unless the monitors need to be really loud.

Monitors (or not) are always an issue to be dealt with for the One Mic Method. I think the real essence of the One Mic Method is to play -without- monitors and to listen only to one another. If the players can do it, that eliminates a lot of difficult variables.

stv

[mandroid]

Local group has 2 cardioid mics side by side [AKG,I think] on one stand,

so the polar pattern is adjustable [rather than a fixed XY] but offers a bit more width ,

so less noggin knocking is needed to get the harmony singers in together ..

[steve V. johnson]

I used to see a folk music show on the PBS TV here, recorded at a university auditorium stage, maybe in Virginia (??) and they had two AKG 414 TLIIs on stage, maybe four feet apart, but the players weren't using the One Mic Method, leaning into them, they were area/ambient mics.

As I recall, no one was plugged in at all, and I never saw any monitors on the stage. It was a big stage in a theatre, so the main speakers may have been installed in the proscenium walls or flown above the stage. There was a curtain hung behind the players so the stage wasn't very deep, maybe eight or ten feet.

The show always sounded great. Those are some of my favorite mics, too. They are multi-pattern, will switch to omni, cardioid, figure-8, have a switchable (-10db?) pad and a switchable 75Hz high-pass filter.

stv

[Spruce]

I used to see a folk music show on the PBS TV here, recorded at a university auditorium stage, maybe in Virginia (??) and they had two AKG 414 TLIIs on stage, maybe four feet apart, but the players weren't using the One Mic Method, leaning into them, they were area/ambient mics.

As I recall, no one was plugged in at all, and I never saw any monitors on the stage. It was a big stage in a theatre, so the main speakers may have been installed in the proscenium walls or flown above the stage. There was a curtain hung behind the players so the stage wasn't very deep, maybe eight or ten feet.

The show always sounded great. Those are some of my favorite mics, too. They are multi-pattern, will switch to omni, cardioid, figure-8, have a switchable (-10db?) pad and a switchable 75Hz high-pass filter.

stv


Hot Rize used to work a single 414 onstage, and maybe a single guitar mic to suppliment it...
Worked great....

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

i use a C-414 and a KSM-32. (we don't have the best of choreography - hence two ldc mics). they match fairly well with some slightly differing tweaks in the mids. i prefer the 32 for myself (mandolin), the bass player, and random guests onstage.
so many good ldc mics, but they are all different and require a good listen before choosing. that in itself is an adventure that is not easily or quickly accompiished.

rasa
jonathan reinhardt
Cold River Ranters

[mandognome]

I've done this a bit now after posting a similar question a while back. The AT2020 works fine. When playing as a duo I wonder if a mic with a figure 8 pattern would be better so both players aren't off-axis.

My best advice: learn to go without monitors altogether. It really is about the same ear-adjustment as going with a poor monitor mix, which is what I get about 80% of the time with monitors anyway. Learn to move in and out to mix yourself when you play with others. It sounds good and adds movement, which is cool (I've been told I'm as serious as a judge when I play so I need all the help I can get). Playing without monitors makes you more versatile by shortening soundcheck, requiring less smarts from the soundguy (if there even is one), and keeps the stage cleaner.

Get a shockmount if you like to stomp (the 4040 and other higherish-end mics will come with them).

Finally, have a backup because as mentioned by wise men (not wiseguys), it just doesn't always work. Sometimes the room won't allow it because of the positioning of the mains or other noise factors mentioned. There have been times when I decided I would trade a little gain for the simplicity (and sound quality) when switching instruments and inviting guest players on and off the stage. Then again, there have been times where having some DIs, cords, and mics saved the gig.
:mandosmiley:

[mandognome]

Other advantages I can think of for one-mic-ing it:

You learn to play together and more dynamically more readily and rely less on signal processing to do that.

Looks old-school.

Another suggestion: get advice from good-eared people about what distances and positions worked or lacked during your performance. Make some notes and try different things. For example, I learned that my chops always translated well, but that my breaks could use a lifting of the instrument to get a little more proximity. I have to lean in further when I sing in the lower part of my register than my wife, who is awesomely loud at any range.

You could also video your performance. And for evaluation purposes, when there's not more than one mic, a room or soundboard recording will be more true to what really happened.

[foldedpath]

It makes me wonder if anyone has tried using a stereo mic, like the AT 825.

A stereo mic could work, but unless it's critical to have the look of a single mic, I'd use two cardioids on one stand for that approach. You'd have more flexibility in setting the pickup pattern to avoid a hole at the rear. More importantly, you'd have a much wider selection of mics to choose from. There aren't many coincident stereo mics out there, and the large diaphragm versions tend to be expensive.

Two mics on separate stands spaced a few feet apart, would spread the coverage and help avoid people crashing into each other. Although at that point, you might as well have a separate mic and stand for each player, since it gets away from the traditional look.

One crazy idea might be to try a figure-8 pattern mic turned sideways for left/right coverage, combined with a rear-pointing cardioid mic. If the sideways mic was something like a ribbon with a very deep null, you could use a single floor monitor placed in front of the stand. This would let the band work the mic in three directions around the circle, instead of crowding close around the rear of the mic stand. The sideways pattern could be EQ'd for instruments, and the rear-facing cardioid could be EQ'd for vocals. You'd have to make sure the mains were set pretty far ahead of the group and out of the sidways figure-8 polar pattern. I've never tried this, but it might work under the right conditions.

[Jim Nollman]

There's one other issue, that effectively prompted me to start using a Schertler connected to my own small acoustic Loudbox amp, often to serve as my personal monitor. When I'm playing mandolin in a group with three or four other people bunched around one mic, I often can't hear myself, because the instruments on either side of me are projecting more towards my ears than my own F holed mandolin, which is projecting several feet in front of me. Sometimes i wonder if this problem which I solved with a small amp, could also be solved by getting a mandolin with a hole in the side that projects right at me. I'd be curious if others have found this to be a solution.

I don't have this problem when there is no mike. Every so often I play contra dances at events in a National Historical Park building. It's a very cool gig. The room is lit by candle chandeliers and every one dresses in 1850s clothing. Naturally, they prefer the band eschews a PA. In that case, I tend to walk around the stage until I find a sweet spot where i can hear myself as well as everyone else in the band. That sweet spot changes by the song, although it usually has me standing in the middle, either slightly in back or in front of a band semicircle which is a bit more spread out than when we play around a single mike.

[Mike Bunting]

often to serve as my personal monitor.
That's precisely how I use my AER, a clean DI signal and I can set up my monitor as I like it.

[Patrick Sylvest]

We use an AKG 3000B. It works pretty well if the fellas get in there and sing at it properly! A good mic that will leave you with the worry of how you work it, not how it works.

[Emonortem]

Thanks again for all the input.

I'm leaning toward two cardioid mics out front, with possibly another instrument mic for boosted solos...

However, I can't decide between the AT2020 and the AT3035. Should I shell out an additional $40 to get the 3035, with its shock-mount?

[Andy Miller]

I haven't used a 2020, but you should use shock mounts with LD condensers for live performance.

[Pete Martin]

My fave is the Shure KSM44. I see many of these used by pros (Vincent, Krauss, etc...)

[steve V. johnson]

I saw the Shure large-diaphragm KSMs on stage a lot, as Pete says, and heard (some here) varying accounts of which of the KSM models they were, so I got the most basic one, a KSM 27, mainly to use for my bouzouki and guitar onstage for the Irish trad group. (We don't attempt the One Mic Method ;-) )

Since I got it it's gotten a lot of use in the studio, more there than out live, because it's one of the most neutral and versatile mics I've ever used. Money well spent and... not very much of it, around $200. I haven't had many chances to be around the KSM 32 and the KSM 44, and tho they're different designs from the -27, I expect that they're really, really good.

Oh, and the -27 comes with a shock mount.

stv

[Rich Breen]

FWIW - If you're looking for a great example of a band really working one mic well, you might take a look here:

Karl Shiflett Video (http://johnhartford.org/Videos/Back40Festival-2008/KarlShiflett-FirstSong-Back40Festival-2ndSet-8-8-08.htm)


I think they might have had an additional mic on the bass...

best,
rich

[Spruce]

Here's some old-school one-mic technique on an RCA 77DX:


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[moledalin]

AKG C1000S just sit the banjo player in the back 40.

[foldedpath]

FWIW - If you're looking for a great example of a band really working one mic well, you might take a look here:

Karl Shiflett Video (http://johnhartford.org/Videos/Back40Festival-2008/KarlShiflett-FirstSong-Back40Festival-2ndSet-8-8-08.htm)

They put on a good show, but notice how far the instruments (other than the banjo) drop out of the mix when playing backup. You can see that the mandolin and fiddle players are playing backup licks behind vocals and instrumental breaks, but you can't hear it, or can barely hear it. The audience is cheated out of hearing the "real" overall band mix that the players themselves can hear onstage.

I can appreciate the showmanship, but I like to hear tasteful backup behind the singer or solo breaks. So I'm not a big fan of this "spotlight on one person" approach. Just my opinion, and I know some folks really like this traditional technique. It certainly looks cool.


Here's some old-school one-mic technique on an RCA 77DX:

(Flatt & Scruggs YouTube clip)

Another good example of the trade-offs. It would have been nice to hear what the Dobro player was doing. There was a mandolin player in the band, but you'd only know it from the video and not the audio.

[earthsave]

Oh my.... I love the KSBC. Havent seen them since Jesse Baker joined. Those young'ns dont take up as much space as the older guys. Karl is a character and they are one of my favorite bands to see.

Hey, that's David Long on Mando, too cool.

[earthsave]

BTW, here's another KSBC quickie. Fire on the Mountain at BB 2006.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GpIX1h4aZg

[GVD]

Oh my.... I love the KSBC. Havent seen them since Jesse Baker joined. Those young'ns dont take up as much space as the older guys. Karl is a character and they are one of my favorite bands to see.

Hey, that's David Long on Mando, too cool.


Yup and boy can sing a lick or two too boot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e06M6QmyZqs


e06M6QmyZqs

GVD

[earthsave]

Krazy Legs Karl

[CTH Man]

We have on occassion used a Shure KSM 32 with good results. Mandolin,guitar and banjo and 4 vocals, use a small clip condenser on the bass.Banjo man will wear the wireless ear monitors with the house mix....so he can critque the mix and advise members accordingly after a song or two.
I prefer this set up for small,quiet venues like a church.