View Full Version : Continuation of the second cello suite
Jack Roberts
Jul-21-2004, 9:08pm
I've been trying for over a month now to learn, by memory, the Prelude to Bach's second cello suite, and as yet I haven't got it. Is it the minor key? Is it the way the piece wanders? I don't know. I enjoy it, but it is time to move forward, so I'm starting the Allemande.
Maybe if I get away from the Prelude for a while it will come to me on it's own (like that ever happens...)
Jack
Jim Garber
Jul-21-2004, 9:28pm
Sometimes it is better to move on and then come back. BTW do you listen to recording of the pieces you play? Sometimes that helps make more sense of the piece hearing the phrasing and dynamics.
Jim
Jack Roberts
Jul-26-2004, 10:20am
BTW do you listen to recording of the pieces you play?
Jim, I agree with your advice. I have both Rostropovich's and Casal's cello recordings.
I just got to the point where I wanted to bash my mandolin into a million pieces and take up golf. But I started on the allemande, and I realized that I actually made more progess on the prelude than I thought. My real problem is that I can't understand what the psycological block is. I had much less trouble with the prelude from the first suite, which I started many months ago with many many hours less practice on the mandolin.
But I'm going to follow your advice, and continue working on the allemande for a while, and maybe just go through the prelude once a day for a while.
Cheers.
Jack
Jim Garber
Jul-26-2004, 4:10pm
Even stranger... I was searching for something else but came across the site of a mando-friend, Joe Brent (http://www.josephbrent.com/BachProject.htm), who is working thru Bach suites. He recorded the first one on tenor banjo.
He is planning on recording all the Cello ones on banjo and the violin ones on mandolin. He also has an mp3 of Capriccio Spagnuolo (http://akamai.www.berkleemusic.com/assets/display/1144179/1144178.mp3) by Munier.
Jim
Mandobar
Jul-27-2004, 3:50pm
jack,
try this: #sing the parts along with the recordings. #this way you will get the feel of making the music yourself. #glenn gould actually used to sing while he was playing a concert........i wouldn't go that far.....but it does help to lock the feel of the music and the melody into your head.
Jack Roberts
Jul-27-2004, 8:08pm
#glenn gould actually used to sing while he was playing a concert........i wouldn't go that far.....
Keith Jarret sang, and Peter Serkin sang really loud when he played. I don't suppose it's so easy for violinists to sing while they play.
It's funny you should bring this up because now that I have taken a break from this piece I find myself humming it while I drive.
But that Allemande! What a splendid piece of music!
Jack
Mandobar
Jul-27-2004, 9:14pm
i believe stern sang as he played. i saw him once at a master class. i also perlman sings, at least when playing while he teaches.
has anyone attempted the cello suites on mandocello or possibly mandola?
bigpete
Jul-28-2004, 1:53am
Hi all. It's awhile since I looked in here. I'm working through the 3d cello suite myself. It's always been a favourite of mine and I find it musically more accessible. I know that I found myself hung up on three bars for a week or more because I just couldn't figure out what the music was doing. It seemed that there were three themes coming together and resolving at that point. Once I identified those themes and started hearing them seperately I had it nailed. (well, to my standard anyway)
I got myself a mandola from Mid Missouri so I could play in the proper key ( C in the case of the third suite) I got the viola score from the Icking archive and now I'm trying to familiarise myself with the alto cleff. I go OK until it swaps back into treble cleff for a few bars ARGHHH.
Thanks Victor for the violin parts you sent me months ago. So far I've knocked over the bouree, gigue and the prelude.I'm currently working on the allemande but there's a run of doublestops and up the neck work which is stumping me. I need a tutor.
When I catch myself whistling the work while i'm driving it's usually a sign that I'm Getting it.
Jim Garber
Jul-28-2004, 7:11am
I'm currently working on the allemande but there's a run of doublestops and up the neck work which is stumping me. I need a tutor.
I don't see many doublestops in the Allemande for the 3rd Cello Suite. Do you mean the Sarabande?
Give us the part and the bar numbers and maybe we can help with fingering.
Jim
margora
Jul-28-2004, 2:25pm
Re: playing the Cello suites on mandola, I do this (as well as on mandolin and classical guitar). IMHO, they work (sound) better on mandola than on mandolin, in general, and in some cases sound better on mandola than on guitar. By "sound better" I am referring to sustain and tonality. However, on guitar it is possible to ornament in ways that are really not possible on mandola or mandolin (for example, cross string ornamentation works very well on guitar but not really on mandolin or mandola) and ornamentation adds much to performing this music on plucked string instruments.
Jack Roberts
Jul-28-2004, 3:00pm
Re: playing the Cello suites on mandola, I do this (as well as on mandolin and classical guitar). #IMHO, they work (sound) better on mandola than on mandolin, in general, and in some cases sound better on mandola than on guitar. #
I have a mandola on order from Peter Coombe. I was hoping to be able to play all six suites by the time it's ready, but at this rate I won't make it.
I tried playing the Prelude to the first suite on the cello at a music store and I got the first measure out before I ran out of bow and didn't know what to do next. I played it on an octave mandolin, and it sounds great, but I don't have the fingers to play that scale length.
So I'm looking forward to getting the mandola. I'll be able to play along with the cello recordings I have.
I play suites #1 and 3 on the mandocello and have played several of the suites on guitar as well. I like them better on mandocello. The range is right and they are wonderfully resonant.
I agree with Robert though--the hardest part certainly was the ornamentation. The scale length on my mandocello doesn't make them any easier either.
For mandolin, I prefer the Sonatas and Partitas.
Another thought...Since we are on the subject of Baroque solo literature. Does anyone else play the solo flute Fantasias of Telemann on the mandolin?
Check them out. They are a bit easier than the Bach and are quite rewarding to play.
margora
Jul-28-2004, 4:30pm
I have played various solo Telemann on guitar; they work well. One can play a lot of solo recorder (flute) music on mandolin; for example, I have an arrangement of one of the movements of Vivaldi's "Four Seasons" that works very well. I suspect the Bach suite for flute might be ok for mandolin but have not tried it. I recently got an early 19th century edition of arias from "Don Giovanni" originally for two flutes that had been arranged for two violins, and it works very well on two mandolins.
Duos--I have played the Canonic Sonatas of Telemann on mandolin (with a violinist) They worked fine but I suspect they would sound better on two mandolins.
Robert--we had spoken (after my recital at the Boston Conservatory) about getting together some time when you are in the Boston area. Why don't we do so and try the Telemann and the "Don Giovanni duos"(among others)?
bigpete
Jul-28-2004, 7:19pm
Jim, I just had a look at the allemande, suite III. Bars 6 & 7.I don't know if these are technically called doublestops or two string chords but I will have to put a few practice sessions in before I get it down. I tend to use fingers 1 and 3 for all of the chords and just slide up the neck. I notice that my left hand gets real claw like when I get up there (Same thing happens in the Prelude bars 38 - 45) I try to relax my hand and move my thumb under the neck but I'm probably nearly biting my tongue off concentrating on getting the notes. Any tips appreciated. Meanwhile I'll just keep driving the family nuts.
Jim Garber
Jul-28-2004, 8:15pm
Peter:
I think you are correct in your approach to the doubel stops in those pbars in the allemande. The version I have is from Icking and he notates that very fingering for some of the chords but I suppose you could alternate between 1 - 3 and 2-4. I ma not sure if that is any advantage, tho. I think it just takes time and practice to get those chrods correct.
In the Prelude just working out the chords to play those arpeggios in each measure shouldn't be a big problem. I would just try to play that series of measures over and over and memorize the shifting of the chord positions.
Jim
margora
Jul-28-2004, 8:22pm
JimD: yes, we should get together. NOTE: I am hoping to attend the Newport Guitar Festival. My understanding is that Phoenix Mandolins will be there and you will be doing a concert/workshop for them? Time?
Robert,
My concert at the Newport Guitar Festival will be at 11:30 am on Saturday the 7th. It will be a 1/2 hour long and I'll be playing a number of different styles to showcase the Phoenix Neoclassical.