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View Full Version : OK--what's the deal with fretless fretboard extensions?



MandoJam
Dec-12-2008, 3:23am
I have been wondering what the use of fretboard extensions are when they have no frets on them. I have been playing a celtic style Weber for a few years and recently came across a good deal for a nice sounding Michael Kelly Elegante F style. I know they don't have the best rep on this site but it really does have a nice sound.(I got lucky I guess) The only problem is the extension is right in the sweet spot and I need to dig a little less deep on my attack to not get that click-click-click. If I sawed it off what could I use it for? Maybe a tongue depressor? Any ideas?

Stephanie Reiser
Dec-12-2008, 4:10am
People usually keep intact the extension to retain that traditional "florida" design aspect of their fretboard. It is purely asthetics. Personally, I like the design of the extension and when I see a mandolin without one it looks odd to me. But that is personal taste. My favorite color is blue; yours might be red. Lots of people scoop out their extention and still others, after scooping the thing out, have fake frets installed to give the look of a complete set of 29 frets. My personal mando has 23 frets and I do have the rest of the extension scooped out. I like the look. Tongue depressor? That's a good one. Or necklace, or tie bolo thingy. Alot of mandolins just have the fretboard sawn off at some point, around the 23rd fret. Let's face it: Who among us really play that far up. The farthest I have played is the 19th or 20th.

MandoJam
Dec-12-2008, 4:49am
Thanks Stephanie--I do like the aesthetic of the extension and your work looks sweet. If I don't saw it off I can make the adjustment in my playing to not hit the extension. I have a live CD with Mike Marshall and Barbara Higbie where you can here Mike hitting that extension with his pick but it takes nothing away from the tune. It's just adrenaline in the live performance.

danb
Dec-12-2008, 5:08am
It's cosmetic to look like an original, but to avoid the clicking sound for those that dig deep with the pick (especially bluegrass players!).

This is my Wiens- It's not scooped (I dislike that look), but the frets also aren't real. They're inlaid wire flush with the surface. I just barely would nick them from time to time, so for me this keeps more of the deisgn integrity intact.

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/23_wiens_extension.jpg

Hans
Dec-12-2008, 7:24am
Well, some folks like 'em, some don't. Here's a floating, scalloped extension with scalloped pickguard. It gives almost 5/16" clearance between extension and strings. It is still possible to install fake frets on the extension. On a floating pickguard, you can locate the pins farther apart because of the extension and that provides more support.
Some folks also say that the removing the extension and extension support changes the tone a bit.

AlanN
Dec-12-2008, 7:58am
Some folks also say that the removing the extension and extension support changes the tone a bit.

Yes, they do. Wayne Benson comes to mind.

MikeEdgerton
Dec-12-2008, 8:26am
I scooped my fingerboard extension and it definitely changed the sound that I was making. The clicks went away.

Dale Ludewig
Dec-12-2008, 9:00am
I don't understand exactly why scooping would change the tone. I've done it to my instruments and have noticed no change in tone, other than pick click. The extension support only should touch the top for a short bit of length and that's largely over the headblock so top vibration shouldn't be affected. Or so it would seem to me. The pickguard also doesn't touch the top and, it would seem, shouldn't affect top vibration. Or so I would think.

Hans
Dec-12-2008, 9:06am
Dale I don't think anyone is saying that scalloping the F/B changes the tone except to make the pick click go away...
Most of the mass is still there on the extension and all of it is there on the support.

Mike Bromley
Dec-12-2008, 9:22am
When asked by Jim T if I wanted a scooped tongue depressor, I said "cut the dang thang off"

It hasn't affected the tone any. I spoze I wouldn't have known if it did. It must be the guitar in me. I literally hacked it off my 1975, but anything was an improvement at the time...

:whistling:~o)

AlanN
Dec-12-2008, 9:34am
Specifically, Wayne and I were comparing our old F-5s one time and talking about the presence of the extension and its effect on tone. He feels that the added mass of the thing adds to the e string zing, and I tend to agree, although when I had a custom built, I asked for no florida, thank you.

mandopete
Dec-12-2008, 9:44am
...although when I had a custom built, I asked for no florida, thank you.

A re-count perhaps?

:)

I guess I'm probably the only one here who kinda likes the sound of the pick "clacking" against the fingerboard. I hear this from David Grisman and most recently from Ricky Skaggs. I like the percussive sound.

Austin Koerner
Dec-12-2008, 10:27am
Yeah, I like the sound of the pick hitting the fingerboard. I also like pick noise on the strings.

Doug Hoople
Dec-12-2008, 10:44am
Some folks also say that the removing the extension and extension support changes the tone a bit.

"Yes, it does. It doesn't make that clicking sound any more."

- Sam Bush quoting Roland White

AlanN
Dec-12-2008, 10:46am
A re-count perhaps?

Must be careful not to get Gore-d :))




I guess I'm probably the only one here who kinda likes the sound of the pick "clacking" against the fingerboard. I hear this from David Grisman and most recently from Ricky Skaggs. I like the percussive sound.

Agree, to a point. Too much clicky is icky...

Steve Ostrander
Dec-12-2008, 12:10pm
Mandojam: I have owned a couple of MKs, a Legacy and a Dragonfly. They were OK but not great. I did play an Elegante at Elderly that I thought sounded pretty good. It's the only MK model I would consider at this juncture. If you like it and it sounds good, go for it.

MandoJam
Dec-12-2008, 1:01pm
Thanks mad4,---at this point it is not even about makers but just style of instrument, but I have no problem with the sound of my mando. It has the loudest "bark" that I have heard on the chop. Of course I know that's not everything.

first string
Dec-12-2008, 3:45pm
They exist to stoke controversy.

mandroid
Dec-12-2008, 4:37pm
Dave Appolon used them all .. them mozzy pitched notes too..

GTison
Dec-12-2008, 5:52pm
AMAZING that folks played em that way for about 80 years. Then all of a sudden everyone hears "pick click" and go to scooping the extension on fine mandolins. I guess everyone before that just adjusted their technique, also AMAZING how they did that.

MikeEdgerton
Dec-12-2008, 6:03pm
Played them for 80 years? I thought they were all under beds not being played. I'm going to guess that there are several thousand times as many F Style mandolins being played now than there have been since 1970 and that the style of mandolin playing has changed drastically in that same time period. Nobody seemed to have a problem with windshield wipers on cars but they still added intermittent wipers in the late 1900's to the vehicles. Things change.

GTison
Dec-12-2008, 6:45pm
can't argue with the "moderator"

I agree there are many more fingerboard extensions now than before the 1970s. I also know that styles have expanded somewhat. (there's a good discussion topic what style is really new) But I also submit that the last 10-15 years have brought disposable income of the common mandolin picker to a high level. This has brought fine instruments into the hands of the garden variety picker ( literally out standing in their field.) And when they hear a click on that expensive axe, they spend a bit more (since it's the easy way) getting an extensionectomy. WHACK! click cured. (or maybe not) Now comes the rage in mandolin plastic surgery "the Scoop". As false a cure as breast implants and wrinkle lifts on Joan Rivers. THINGS DO CHANGE.


How do you turn on these wipers anyway, Durn, blinkers in the wrong spot , dagum pacrim car

MikeEdgerton
Dec-12-2008, 6:46pm
can't argue with the "moderator"

Of course you can :)

Jim
Dec-12-2008, 6:46pm
I have a rover r75 that came scooped and though I like the mandolin I find that scooping is the worst of both options, I still have pick click but no usable frets. I adjust my picking and thats ok but if I had the skill I'd cut it off.

foldedpath
Dec-12-2008, 7:28pm
Things change.

One other thing that changed is we're hearing music with more accurate high frequency sound reproduction through modern PA's and modern recording and playback gear, than we did in the Olden Days. Pick click isn't as noticeable on an old, needle-worn platter played through a 1940's record player, an old radio receiver, or through the kind of stage PA speakers they had back then. Get up close on the mando with a modern condenser mic (or worse, a pickup) through modern high-end PA or digital recording rig, and it's more noticeable.


But I also submit that the last 10-15 years have brought disposable income of the common mandolin picker to a high level. This has brought fine instruments into the hands of the garden variety picker ( literally out standing in their field.) And when they hear a click on that expensive axe, they spend a bit more (since it's the easy way) getting an extensionectomy.

And taking Bowfinger's point for a minute (but in a different direction)... I think it may be more common in modern times for hobbyist mandolin players to play solo at home, and never jam with others or join a band, than it used to be in the old days. When you play solo, you'll hear these annoying little mechanical sounds. Not just pick click, but also things like finger squeaks. All of that gets buried when you're playing next to a banjo, fiddler, guitar player in a pure acoustic jam.

Me, I don't mind at all hearing a little pick clicking when someone else plays. I really hate hearing it when I do it, but that's because my mando came with a pre-shortened fretboard, so it means I've drifted out of the area where the best tone is. A chopped fretboard acts a bit like the bumps on a highway divider line, that tell you when you're getting out of position.

John Hill
Dec-12-2008, 7:53pm
They exist to stoke controversy.

Yes but is it Bluegrass without the extension?

http://www.minastirith.com/ubb/icons/icon53.gif

jasona
Dec-12-2008, 8:20pm
can't argue with the "moderator"

I agree there are many more fingerboard extensions now than before the 1970s.

Sure you can. Watch this.

Ahem.

Bowl backs, which are not getting played very much these days, but were VERY popular back in the day (more mandolins being played then than now?), have much LONGER fretboard extensions. And players of these instruments USED them.

This is again an example of Bluegrass and carved mandocentricity, if I may paraphrase Eugene for a bit. :cool:

Doug Hoople
Dec-12-2008, 9:05pm
Yes but is it Bluegrass without the extension?

http://www.minastirith.com/ubb/icons/icon53.gif

Hmmm... Sam Bush? Roland White?

You tell me. :)

John Hill
Dec-12-2008, 9:18pm
Hmmm... Sam Bush? Roland White?

You tell me. :)

Now Doug that won't stoke any controversy...

Doug Hoople
Dec-12-2008, 10:35pm
Now Doug that won't stoke any controversy...

Sam Bush, maybe, but Roland White?

Ivan Kelsall
Dec-13-2008, 2:13am
I was watching part of Adam Steffey's tuition DVD yesterday,& his Daley does seem strange to me with it's lack of fingerboard extension. It's all a matter of taste & in respect of some folk, practicality,inasmuch as they hit the extension when picking. I like an extended fingerboard,whether it's fretted,scalloped - whatever.It just seems to be an integral part of the 'original' "F" style design,without it,for me it's 'something else'. Hans Brentrup's scalloped fingerboard/scratch plate design is as elegant as it gets & while i'm not the greatest fan of scratch plates,i'd definitely go for one of Hans' creations,
Saska:mandosmiley:

Phil Goodson
Dec-14-2008, 12:14am
Dave Appolon used them all .. them mozzy pitched notes too..

Nope! Dave didn't use fret 27. He took that one out!:)

mandognome
Dec-14-2008, 2:40am
Had a Kentucky KM-630. I chopped Florida off, and I liked it, but the finish was irregular under there because the sprayed-on stuff was lighter beneath the extension, so that looked weird. Nowadays I pick mostly over the fretboard anyway, but not just over the extension. I guess the sweet spot for me is moving away from the tailpiece and toward the 14th fret.

musicofanatic
Dec-14-2008, 5:18am
I recently acquired my first F in a long time that has a traditional f.b. extension. The last few frets have been removed but it is unscalloped. I cannot comprehend what this modification is meant to achieve. Removing .040" of material gains me nothing in terms of clearance. Is the clack on ebony preferable to the click on the frets? Click or clack, I want neither. I'm hating this thing getting in the way of my pick and wondering how much I need to scallop to get the clearance I need. It is hard to resist the temptation to just go out to the shed for the hacksaw!

MikeEdgerton
Dec-14-2008, 8:04am
I still hit my scooped fretboard extension now and then, I just hit it less now that it's scooped. I'm sure I could adjust my technique to keep from doing it but that seems like a lot more work than scooping it was. Call me lazy, call me crazy.

jim_n_virginia
Dec-14-2008, 3:07pm
I've been meaning to scoop my Fern for a while when one day I noticed I could play without pick click. Don't know what happened because I used to pick click all the time, I think I just adjusted without thinking about it.

:mandosmiley:

GTison
Dec-15-2008, 9:43am
Mandognome
I guess the sweet spot for me is moving away from the tailpiece and toward the 14th fret.

Monroe played up that way at times. Granted I think he had his action up a bit but still it was further up the board than where the extension is usually sawed off. His mandolin must have made good sound up there. I can't make mine sound out up there. I've wondered if it was technique of mandolin. (different subject)

Jim in Va. BINGO,


I have been in the studio and they told me they could hear the pick clicking. So I reluctantly switched picks. Modern equipment may pickup noise better. But I can hear at times banjo picks "pinging" the strings on some older recordings.
Some of these very thick mandolin picks make a heck-of-a-racket. Just the pick. You can get the same noise from picking further back toward the bridge try that before using the saw.

GTison
Dec-15-2008, 9:59am
AND
I guess the book of Job has a bit of arguing with the Moderator. So maybe I should be so bold.

Hans
Dec-15-2008, 11:34am
Frank has a solution for pickclick...he picks back at the bridge. Course he also uses 29 frets.

allenhopkins
Dec-15-2008, 11:36am
Click or clack, I want neither.

Hey!

Click & Clack's website. (http://www.cartalk.com/)

Michael Cameron
Dec-15-2008, 1:18pm
If you chop off a full-extension fretboard,I'd do it in between the 19th and 20th frets. Just protect the top while sawing. Apply a piece of matching binding across the end,maybe.

The main thing is SAVE the extension. They make a very cool bolo-tie.

Paul Kotapish
Dec-15-2008, 1:23pm
I don't mind a bit of click and clack on the fingerboard, and I agree with the comments above suggesting that audiophilia has rendered us intolerant of the natural by-product sounds of music making.

Almost all instruments produce some mechanical-sound artifacts in the course of making musical tones--wound strings squeak, sax and flute keys click, accordion buttons clack, piano keyboards clunk, fingerpicks clatter, and other instruments clink and clank.

And as every recording engineer knows, musicians make all kinds of collateral noise when making music--fingertips thwack, harmonica players wheeze, pianists hum, and just forget about the hurdy-gurdy players.

I certainly understand the drive towards perfectly controlled tone, but when the music is right, all those incidental noises disappear for me.

Michael Cameron
Dec-16-2008, 2:30pm
I have 3 F-style mandos all with different length fb ext.(29,24,and 19 frets).

I believe it does give you some options with the right hand not having any fretboard underneath where you're picking that far North of the bridge,especially upstrokes;but,tremoloing too.

I saw a pic of Sierra Hull with a Daley(sp?) mando;looked like the 23rd fret was missing on that one... Gilchrist's abbreviated fretboards are 24 frets total,IIRC.

Yes,I have no point.... again.

AlanN
Dec-16-2008, 2:34pm
Gilchrist's abbreviated fretboards are 24 frets total,IIRC.

Mine ain't. Steve will build it the way you want it.

Michael Cameron
Dec-16-2008, 3:30pm
I asked for "abbreviated" fretboard on two Gils I got back in the early '90s. Both came with 24. That's all I was basing my number on for Gil. shorter fbs.
.. don't have them anymore;just going on memory...not good.

I almost forgot a 22 fret mando,A5-style, Kimble(#12).

Never met a mandolin I didn't like!

I might say it's a good time to be a mando nut;but,it's been that way for a couple decades for me,and it keeps getting better.

mandopete
Dec-16-2008, 3:46pm
Years ago I saw Jesse McReynolds put electrical tape over the frets on the "peninsula" as way to stop the pick clacking sound. I did this myself for a couple of years, but I used the mush less aesthetically pleasing masking-tape version.

GRW3
Dec-16-2008, 6:03pm
I go up on the fret board to clack intentionally but I would not want with normal playing. And it's pretty much all rhythm. I keep my action as low as I can without a buzz so it's pretty hard to pick between those closely spaced frets.

MandoJam
Dec-17-2008, 3:55am
I like mandopete's idea of Jesse McReynolds electrical tape solution. I can use that as a last resort if I am not able to get my technique under control. I do respect the tradition of the design and would not want to take any violent hacksaw solutions to my problem. Thanks guys.

Arto
Dec-17-2008, 6:30am
I have 3 F-style mandos all with different length fb ext.(29,24,and 19 frets).

Wow. For some reasons I had thought that only some bowlback meant for soloist work would have 29 frets. The most I have heard is 31 on some Emberghers. I suppose there isnīt much music that need so high notes from a mandolin, not even in classical music.

grassrootphilosopher
Dec-17-2008, 7:17am
Did I mention David Grismanīs pick click on "Morning Sun" on Tone Poems? If he can why shouldīt I.

As far as aestetics are involved, I donīt like the look of a scooped fingerboard. I also donīt like faux frets. But thatīs just my taste. Some abreviated fretboards are pleasing to my eye though.

And I donīt like to see an instrument "mutilated" after its birth. Itīs like an amputation, or rather an unnecessary operation to me.

If you have an all original F 7 or a 30ies F 12 (as they are available at several dealers right now), I think that no reputable luthier would convert them into "long necks" anymore as well.

Itīs like having the braces of a 1946 D-28 scalloped these days.

Respect your instruments for what they are. (If Santa brought me a converted F7, F12 or a scalloped '46 D-28 I wouldnīt cry though. Iīd even buy Santa a drink to keep him warm on his way to all the other kids on the planet)

Hans
Dec-17-2008, 7:43am
Most builders will build a mandolin anyway you want it. 10 frets, 50 frets, scalloped, fake frets, chopped off, whatever. It's really very simple... if you like scalloped F/B's, do it.
If you don't, don't. ;)

musicofanatic
Dec-18-2008, 1:34am
Funny how not one post actually address the o.p.'s (and mine!) specific point. I do not believe he said a thing about scalloping the extension. I was wondering if anyone can say, "yes, I enjoy playing my mandolin much more with frets removed, but no scalloping". I just cannot see the advantage of the frets being gone, whilst I am still klacking away on the ebony. Oh well, but for the squeemish here, "Hacksaw? Hell, where's my boltcutters!!".

danb
Dec-18-2008, 5:59am
Funny how not one post actually address the o.p.'s (and mine!) specific point. I do not believe he said a thing about scalloping the extension. I was wondering if anyone can say, "yes, I enjoy playing my mandolin much more with frets removed, but no scalloping"

Depends on how deep you dig in with the pick. I would hit the frets on the Loar when I had that, and I don't hit the frets on the Wiens because they aren't there. That gives you just a hair more clearance without the scoop being needed- the scoop to me is a compromise of the very cool traditional aesthetic.

Anyway, I'm sure you could use more opionions. I'm pretty sure having a normal extension with inlaid or no frets isn't a common choice.